They Call It Roman

[david01]

Very interesting discussion, Albion. When I joined these forums I gave a lot of thought concerning my title and identification and ended up using my name and not identifying with any church body. It is not that I do not have solid beliefs, but that my identity and allegiance are to Jesus Christ, alone, and not to anything or anyone else.

On the OBOB forum I frequently read threads that mystically transform Christ into the RCC church itself, which certainly smacks of idolatry or the insistence that Christ's presence is only in the RCC Eucharist or that, as Pope Benedict has recently reaffirmed, (full) salvation is found only the in the RCC church.

The only other forum that I have encountered with such a high level of membership intensity and identification is the LDS forum.

 

[Rhamiel]

Catholics love their Church, we really see it as a gift from God, proof that He loves us. The Church is a tool, the tool God uses to bring people to Him, when I hear protestants talk about their churches it almost sounds like they are talking about the company they work for "I like the people there, it was good to my parents, it was the what I grew up in"
I hear protestants say "I am Christian first and ____ second" but Catholics do not think that way, it is "I am a Catholic" it is not that we do not value Christ, He is the Lord, He should have all of our love and devotion, but part of being Catholic is having Christ as our Lord so we do not seperate the two things.
I think it has more to do with social differances then with faith in Christ, I understand how these things can be off putting to you.

the insistence that Christ's presence is only in the RCC Eucharist

we also except the fact that the EO has valid sacrements, meaning they too have priests and the Eucharist in their Church is also transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ

 

[Rick Otto]

I had reservations about identifying myself as even Christian because of the lack of "solid belief" universaly speaking, in what that means.
I am quite content to let people decide what I am for themselves - partly because that's what they will, & all they can, do anyway.

I don't necessarily equate solidity of belief with the veracity of that belief, but I often see a correlation between solidity & unability or unwillingness to consider alternatives, if even for the sake of the mental exercise & what insights doing so could offer.

 

[Albion]

Very interesting discussion, Albion. When I joined these forums I gave a lot of thought concerning my title and identification and ended up using my name and not identifying with any church body. It is not that I do not have solid beliefs, but that my identity and allegiance are to Jesus Christ, alone, and not to anything or anyone else.

On the OBOB forum I frequently read threads that mystically transform Christ into the RCC church itself, which certainly smacks of idolatry or the insistence that Christ's presence is only in the RCC Eucharist or that, as Pope Benedict has recently reaffirmed, (full) salvation is found only the in the RCC church.

The only other forum that I have encountered with such a high level of membership intensity and identification is the LDS forum.

Hi, David. I think you are quite right in that. As a matter of fact, I almost said in my own post that the LDS seem to be the only other ones with this kind of approach--but I decided against it because I didn't want anyone saying that I was accusing the RCC of being a cult, something I wouldn't have meant by the comparison any more than you did.

I believe you are also right about what is said between Catholics any what is said by them to "non-Catholics." To members of other faiths there is often the concession that all Christians are believers in Jesus, if however divided externally, etc. but when they are in the company of other Catholics, the "one true church" way of thinking is evident.

 

[Anglian]

An interesting and informative discussion.

That the Cyprianic ecclesiology evidenced in the RCC claim is repeated by other Apostolic Churches might, by this stage, have given rise to some thought about ways in which that claim can be understood without being particularist; there must be some such thinking, but can anyone point me to it?

My own Coptic Church would make the same claim, but would say that whilst it can be sure about itself, it cannot comment on others since only God knows where His Church is. Some, to be sure, put themselves outside of our understanding of the Church - but that is our understanding - not the Gospel Truth.

I think some of the RCC defensiveness may come from the number and nature of the attacks to which it often receives, many of which are unfair. It is indeed a shame that so many of the responses to those attacks take the form Albion describes. A repeat of the RCC claims is simply that; we know what the RCC claim; we know most outside that Church don't accept some of the claims. It is often more profitable to dwell on some of the many things we hold in common.

In peace,

Anglian

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Catholics love their Church, we really see it as a gift from God, proof that He loves us. The Church is a tool, the tool God uses to bring people to Him, when I hear protestants talk about their churches it almost sounds like they are talking about the company they work for "I like the people there, it was good to my parents, it was the what I grew up in"
I hear protestants say "I am Christian first and ____ second" but Catholics do not think that way, it is "I am a Catholic" it is not that we do not value Christ, He is the Lord, He should have all of our love and devotion, but part of being Catholic is having Christ as our Lord so we do not seperate the two things.
I think it has more to do with social differances then with faith in Christ, I understand how these things can be off putting to you.
we also except the fact that the EO has valid sacrements, meaning they too have priests and the Eucharist in their Church is also transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ

A division by any other name is still a Division

 

[TraderJack]

An interesting and informative discussion.

That the Cyprianic ecclesiology evidenced in the RCC claim is repeated by other Apostolic Churches might, by this stage, have given rise to some thought about ways in which that claim can be understood without being particularist; there must be some such thinking, but can anyone point me to it?

If you can find a copy of a book titled, "The Community of the Beloved Disciple" by Raymond Brown(a Roman Catholic historian---an honest one), he does a good job of laying out the differences in the Ignatius citations concerning "apostolic succession" that began to develop in the 2nd century, and which Rome has taken out of context as they do Cyprian, and the fact of the early churches being autonomous entitites in a loose confederation of churches, each led and ruled by a plurality of elders/bishops/presbyters.

Actually, Dr. Brown agrees that the Roman system of ecclesiology is not Biblical and was not what was practiced by the early church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If you can find a copy of a book titled, "The Community of the Beloved Disciple" by Raymond Brown(a Roman Catholic historian---but not an honest one), he does a good job of laying out the differences in the Ignatius citations concerning "apostolic succession" that began to develop in the 2nd century, and which Rome has taken out of context as they do Cyprian, and the fact of the early churches being autonomous entitites in a loose confederation of churches, each led and ruled by a plurality of elders/bishops/presbyters.

Actually, Dr. Brown agrees that the Roman system of ecclesiology is not Biblical and was not what was practiced by the early church.

Hi TJ.
You may want to check on this thread in the OBOB once in awhile as the way it looks, they will be checking non-RC boards threads and bring over what we discuss to their board to discuss.
Just a thought.

http://christianforums.com/t6926307-call-to-boycott-gt.html

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ok. Here is real long post from a RC on the OB concerning what the Catholic church is.
I inadvertly asked a question to "Roman catholics"

http://christianforums.com/t6920830-question-for-roman-catholics-only-on-parousia.html

question-for-roman-catholics-only-on-parousia

Post #23
I hope you don't mind a little correction brother. You see the correct term when refering to the eintire Catholic Church is 'The Catholic Church'. The Roman Catholic Church is only one of the rites of the Catholic Church as a whole.The Catholic Church is actually a communion of a numberSui Juris Churches. So the term Roman Catholic is actually incorrect when referring to the entire Catholic Church in communion with the See of St. Peter. The term ‘Roman’ Catholic is a relatively modern term, and one, moreover, that is confined largely to the English language. In the First Vatican Council in 1870, in fact, the term Roman Catholic was nowhere included in any of the Council's official documents about the Church herself, and the term was not included.
Similarly, nowhere in the 16 documents of the Second Vatican Council will you find the term Roman Catholic. Pope Paul VI signed all the documents of the Second Vatican Council as "I, Paul. Bishop of the Catholic Church." Simply that -- Catholic Church. There are references the Roman rite, etc., but when the adjective Roman is used, it refers to the Diocese of Rome!

Roman Rite is not co-terminus with the Church as a whole; that would mean neglecting the Byzantine, Chaldean, Maronite or other Oriental rites which are all very much part of the Catholic Church with whom the Holy See of St. Peter is in Communion.
There are a number of Churches sui iuris that, together, constitute the Catholic Church – There are Western, Eastern and Oriental Churches. The term sui iuris means, literally, "of their own law", or self-governing. These various Churches (canon 112) are "autonomous ritual Churches". Each Church has its own hierarchy, spirituality, and theological perspective. The Eastern Catholic Churches are each led by a Patriarch, Major Archbishop, or Metropolitan, who governs their Church together with a synod of bishops.


Here, then, is a break-out most frequently referenced members of The Catholic Church:
Alexandrean
Coptic Tradition
Coptic Catholic Church
Ge'ez Tradition
Ethiopian Catholic Church
Includes the Eritrean Catholic Church
Antiochene
East Syrian Tradition
Syro-Malabarese Catholic Church
Knanaya Usage
West Syrian Tradition
Syriac Catholic Church
Syro-Malankarese Catholic Church
Knanaya Usage (informal)
Armenian
Armenian Catholic Church

Byzantine

• Byzantine-Greek Tradition
  • Greek Rescension
    • Albanian Catholic Church
    • Greek Catholic Church
  • Grieco-Arabic Rescension
    • Melkite Catholic Church
  • Grieco-Georgian Rescension
    • Georgian Catholic Church
  • Grieco-Italian Rescension
    • Italo-Grieco-Albanian Catholic Church
      • Italo-Albanian Catholic Church - Eparchy of Lungro degli Italo-Albanesi in Calabria
      • Italo-Albanian Catholic Church - Eparchy of Piana in Sicily degli Albanisi
      • Italo-Greek Catholic Church - Exarchic Abbey & Territorial Monastery of Santa Maria di Grottaferrata degli Italo-Grieco
• Byzantine-Slav Tradition
  • Great Russian Rescension
    • Belarusan Catholic Church
    • Bulgarian Catholic Church
    • Russian Catholic Church
      • Russian Catholic Church - Apostolic Exarchate of Moscow of the Russians
        • Old Ritualist Usage
      • Russian Catholic Church - Apostolic Exarchate of Harbin of the Russians
  • Romanian Rescension
    • Romanian Catholic Church
      • All jurisdictions except Eparchy of Maramures of the Romanians
  • Ruthenian Rescension
    • Croatian Catholic Church
      • Includes the Apostolic Exarchate of Serbia & Montenegro for Faithful of the Eastern Rite
    • Hungarian Catholic Church
    • Romanian Catholic Church
      • Eparchy of Maramures of the Romanians only
    • Ruthenian Catholic Church
      • Ruthenian Catholic Church - Metropolitan Archeparchy of Pittsburgh of the Ruthenians
      • Ruthenian Catholic Church - Eparchy of Mukachevo of the Ruthenians
    • Slovakian Catholic Church
      • Includes Apostolic Exarchate of the Czech Republic for Czech Faithful of the Eastern Rites
    • Ukrainian Catholic Church

Chaldean

• • • Chaldean Catholic Church
      • • Arabic Usage Catholic Church
      • Maronite
        • • • Maronite Catholic Church
      • • Latin (Roman)
          • • • Roman Catholic Church (This is the "Roman" Catholic Church)
                • Milanese Catholic Church
                  • Ambrosian Rite
                • Bragan Catholic Church
                  • Bragan Rite
                • Mozarabic Catholic Church
                • Monastic Usages*
                • United States of America
                  • Anglican Use
        There are literally tens of millions of these Catholics who are all in communion with the Holy See of St. Peter that are not "Roman" Catholic. So, you see that the Catholic Church is comprised of much more than the Roman Catholics.
        
        
        I hope this helps clear up your misunderstanding on the subject.
        
        
        Your servant in Christ.

 

[chestertonrules]

Jesus gave his Church authority. Those who reject his church are to be treated as pagans.

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

 

[chestertonrules]

Very interesting discussion, Albion. When I joined these forums I gave a lot of thought concerning my title and identification and ended up using my name and not identifying with any church body. It is not that I do not have solid beliefs, but that my identity and allegiance are to Jesus Christ, alone, and not to anything or anyone else.

On the OBOB forum I frequently read threads that mystically transform Christ into the RCC church itself, which certainly smacks of idolatry or the insistence that Christ's presence is only in the RCC Eucharist or that, as Pope Benedict has recently reaffirmed, (full) salvation is found only the in the RCC church.

The only other forum that I have encountered with such a high level of membership intensity and identification is the LDS forum.

How do these verses fit into your views?

Jesus gave his Church authority. Those who reject his church are to be treated as pagans.

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

 

[mont974x4]

Rejection of rome, and false teaching from any denomination, is not a rejection of Christ or His Church.

I think most romans here would be surprised at how willing we protestants are to submit to godly authority.

 

[chestertonrules]

Rejection of rome, and false teaching from any denomination, is not a rejection of Christ or His Church.

I think most romans here would be surprised at how willing we protestants are to submit to godly authority.

Which Church was Jesus referring to if not the Catholic Church?

Which Church is built on the foundation of Peter?

Which Church has apostolic succession and the ability to forgive sins, granted by Christ?

Reality may be uncomfortable for you, in some cases, but you can't change it!

 

[mont974x4]

Which Church was Jesus referring to if not the Catholic Church?

Which Church is built on the foundation of Peter?

Which Church has apostolic succession and the ability to forgive sins, granted by Christ?

Reality may be uncomfortable for you, in some cases, but you can't change it!

1. His Church is not limited to rome

2. His Chirch is built upon Himself..not pete

3. We are all able, and should be willing, to forgive sins...no popes need apply


I prefer God's reality to the fabrications and revisionsit history of rome.

 

[Rhamiel]

1. His Church is not limited to rome

The Catholic Church is not limited to Rome

 

[chestertonrules]

1. His Church is not limited to rome

2. His Chirch is built upon Himself..not pete

3. We are all able, and should be willing, to forgive sins...no popes need apply


I prefer God's reality to the fabrications and revisionsit history of rome.

1) True. The Catholic Church is worldwide with over billion members.

2) You deny the words of Christ. Your problem, not mine. I wonder, why did Jesus give Peter the keys to the kingdom in your opinion?

3) Your argument is with Jesus, not me. Please read John 20. I'm sure you'll get the opportunity to plead your case at some point. I'm NOT sure it will do you any good since you have the words of scripture before you today.

 

[mont974x4]

If by catholic you mean, the universal church that is made up of all beleivers regardless of denomination then I'd agree with you, since that is what I meant and what I have said many times. If you mean catholic in the sense that was hijacked by your denomination...then, your definition and application is still to narrow.

 

[mont974x4]

1. I already answered.
2 and 3. I reject the "traditional" ways rome has twisted Scripture to support its own ideals and usurping of Christs rightful Lordship. Better to simply follow Christ and what Scripture actually says than to follow false teachers.

 

[chestertonrules]

1. I already answered.
2 and 3. I reject the "traditional" ways rome has twisted Scripture to support its own ideals and usurping of Christs rightful Lordship. Better to simply follow Christ and what Scripture actually says than to follow false teachers.

So you are your own pope.

I get it. You have your own infallible interpretation of scripture.

Good luck with that.

 

[mont974x4]

So you are your own pope.

I get it. You have your own infallible interpretation of scripture.

Good luck with that.

Nope, I leave the unbiblical claim of infallability to you romans and your popes.


I'm a simple man being led by the Holy Spirit into all Truth as the Bible tells us He will.



Rejection of the pope and an unbiblical command structure does not mean we don't submit to godly authority.