There's a lot of truth to this...

[Carl Emerson]

The early church had plenty of issues, some of which we glimpse through their correspondence.

But we are not the early church. We don't live in that social context; the world has changed, the church has changed, and ministry today is not what ministry was then. I see that as simple fact rather than a problem or issue. Our call is to be faithful in our context.

I find it really difficult when people seem to think that the best way to deal with problems today is to make life even more precarious and difficult for people in ministry. I mean, how is it going to improve things, to say to ministers, we will still expect everything of you that we do now, but it'll be up to your congregation whether they want to pay you enough to live on?

I mean, nobody goes into ministry to get rich, but it's important to know that your family's going to have food on the table.

And I just noticed your comment about being on "the same plane." Being paid a stipend doesn't put you on a different plane to the congregation; after all, they all get paid for their work, and most of them get paid more than we do!

Well my understanding of how the Body of Christ is supposed to function is more like a family where folks are taken care of rather than a business that hires staff.

 

[Paidiske]

Well my understanding of how the Body of Christ is supposed to function is more like a family where folks are taken care of rather than a business that hires staff.

To some degree, yes. But when you have people who forego any other way of making income in order to dedicate their entire working life to the church, it's reasonable to make sure they're treated fairly and decently.

Honestly, I find it ridiculous that your answer to an article outlining how difficult some clergy find things, is to propose that they shouldn't even be paid a regular stipend. Talk about bricks without straw...

 

[Carl Emerson]

To some degree, yes. But when you have people who forego any other way of making income in order to dedicate their entire working life to the church, it's reasonable to make sure they're treated fairly and decently.

Honestly, I find it ridiculous that your answer to an article outlining how difficult some clergy find things, is to propose that they shouldn't even be paid a regular stipend. Talk about bricks without straw...

Sadly you misrepresent my position.

Any healthy family will be committed to supporting well those who labour in Love for their good.

 

[Paidiske]

Sadly you misrepresent my position.

Any healthy family will be committed to supporting well those who labour in Love for their good.

But a) lots of churches aren't healthy, but they need good ministers anyway, and b) then why the resistance to having an agreed amount in place? That's so much more supportive than something which is uncertain or variable, given we all have to budget!

 

[Carl Emerson]

But a) lots of churches aren't healthy, but they need good ministers anyway, and b) then why the resistance to having an agreed amount in place? That's so much more supportive than something which is uncertain or variable, given we all have to budget!

The early Church was transformed by Christs Love and there was not a needy individual among them.

Maybe we should focus on returning to the basics we read in Acts 4:32-34 and focus on the transformation that takes place when the Love and Power of Christ visits.

I have just returned from a church service alone, in which no one communicated meaningfully with me, so I broke bread with Him alone when I got home.

Yet I feel called there - but He will have to deal with the dry bones and 'shake the building' in His time.

There are real people like me who deeply care about the state of Christian fellowship and deeply wait for the power of the cross to manifest.

I hope we can respect each other as we travel towards better things for us all.

 

[Paidiske]

Maybe we should focus on returning to the basics we read in Acts 4:32-34

I don't see that as either possible or practical. That time and that world is gone. The church has to operate in a different context now, and needs to do so with credibility.

I have just returned from a church service alone, in which no one communicated meaningfully with me,

I'm sorry that that's your experience. That is very poor.

I hope we can respect each other as we travel towards better things for us all.

I honestly don't feel it's respectful to suggest that someone working six days a week for the church doesn't deserve a basic agreed stipend.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't see that as either possible or practical. That time and that world is gone. The church has to operate in a different context now, and needs to do so with credibility.



I'm sorry that that's your experience. That is very poor.



I honestly don't feel it's respectful to suggest that someone working six days a week for the church doesn't deserve a basic agreed stipend.

Sorry but you still haven't got it...

No one said those He raises up to lead should not be supported.

I will withdraw from this thread now I have said my piece and honestly dont want to cause offence.

 

[Paidiske]

Sorry but you still haven't got it...

No one said those He raises up to lead should not be supported.

But the idea that it would be ad-hoc, not paid "in the usual sense" but up to the whim of the congregation at the time... that's going to result in a lack of support. That will be the practical end result. Go back and look at the examples I posted of congregations not respecting agreements in place now about basic things like a regular day off, and ask yourself, are people who begrudge their minister a day of rest, going to do the right thing about pay if it's left up to them?

 

[The Liturgist]

Well when He shakes your building in response to your approach to fellowship, you will have my ear. I the mean time I will take it that there are principles in Acts to be heeded.

And we do heed the principles in Acts; all non-heterodox churches that could be considered Catholic in the sense of preserving the Apostolic faith, such as my church, the Anglican Communion, the Lutheran Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Methodist Church, the Moravian Church, the Waldensian Church, the Dutch Reformed Church, the Presbyterian Church, the other continental Reformed Churches, the Old Catholics, have I missed anyone? I suspect I have... the Baptists, and the Anabaptists... and probably the Calvary Chapel, although I don’t know enough about them and the implications of their non-standard approach to Congregational polity which Rev. Chuck Smith called the Moses Model, which in the case of an individual church using it would lack safeguards, but in the case of the Calvary Chapel I would guess that the pastors of the different parishes keep each other in check...that would make an interesting thread for Denomination Specific Theology.

Here’s what we do, where we follow the Church in Acts (we follow the whole book; that is why the Acts of the Apostles has always been regarded as NT canon, without controversy, since St. Luke wrote it):

• We ordain bishops, presbyters and deacons (some Orthodox churches presently, or in the past, limit full diaconal ordinations to 7 for each eparchy or diocese or serving bishop, in order to more fully follow the scriptural precedent; in addition some Orthodox churches like the Coptic church have very few full deacons; I know only one full Coptic deacon, and he is a widow who retired to St. Anthony’s in Yermo , who assists in the pastoral care of the pilgrims, because being a secular deacon and not a monastic, he is more talkative and engaging than many of the monks, whose nature tends to be withdrawn, although there is a group of outgoing monks who have spiritual families who come and visit them at least once a year for advice and to bless their children; like all Coptic churches in the US, the monastery is filled with children and young people).
• We resolve issues, whether they are problems the church is having or questions as to how the church should operate, synodically or through church councils, as demonstrated in Acts 15 (a concept the Russians use the word “Sobornost” to refer to, meaning roughiy “conciliarity”, as opposed to arbitrary decrees from unitary hierarchs; even the Roman church, which one could argue due to the nature of the papacy, makes more unilateral decisions than some churches, convenes a synod or what the Russians call a Sobor for its most important decisions, including convening a Conclave of the College of Cardinals to select the new Pope when a sedevacancy occurs, and general Councils like Trent and Vatican II to address the most important issues facing the church).
• We reject, despise and hold as anathema the grave sin of Simony, which is where someone attempts to purchase an ordination or ecclesiastical office, power or authority for personal gain or to promote their own doctrine.
• We live in a state where we face either the possibility of martyrdom, or a lifelong sacrifice; to best understand this, refer to the Gospel According to Mark where James and John express a desire to be crucified alongside our Lord; read His response to them, and then consider, who, after that moment, led the better life, St. James who was the first of the Twelve to be martyred after Pentecost, or St. John, who was the only one not to be martyred, but who served the church into his 90s, and when he was an old man, in his 60s or 70s, was subject to numerous tortures and privations? (The correct answer is that one could say they both received what they sincerely asked of our Lord, albeit in different ways).
• And of course we adhere to the model of the church in Acts in that regarding its primary dispute, the subject of the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, we adhere to that council by not converting to Judaism gentiles who wish to become Christians, in accordance with the belief of St. Paul, which the council found to be the correct approach despite initial opposition from St. Peter and St. James the Just, who as bishop of Jerusalem presided over the council.

 

[The Liturgist]

Sorry but you still haven't got it...

No one said those He raises up to lead should not be supported.

I will withdraw from this thread now I have said my piece and honestly dont want to cause offence.

You haven’t caused offense; woe be unto us if we refuse to answer questions or hold ourselves aloof from those laity not familiar with the principles of ecclesiastical administration and clerical service; by the way just as an FYI the phrase is “say your peace.”

 

[Carl Emerson]

You haven’t caused offense; woe be unto us if we refuse to answer questions or hold ourselves aloof from those laity not familiar with the principles of ecclesiastical administration and clerical service; by the way just as an FYI the phrase is “say your peace.”

Thanks for drawing my attention to 'say your peace' a nicer phrase I was unaware of.

 

[bèlla]

I’ve supported missionaries in the past who relied on support for sustenance. Employment wasn’t enough to make ends meet. Every month there was an emergency of some sort or hand wringing letter pleading for help.

Their budget didn’t allow a lot of wiggle room. Unexpected expenses or donation reductions sent everything into a tailspin. The letters were very stressful. Every month there was a calamity. I hated reading them and redirected support to other areas.

You can’t bank on anyone’s resources. Life happens. Forgoing a guaranteed income is reckless and unnecessarily taxing on the individual, their families, and supporters. I know several business owners who provide faith-based products and services. Christians can be tight-fisted. I would never forgo the security of an income.

~bella

 

[Carl Emerson]

I’ve supported missionaries in the past who relied on support for sustenance. Employment wasn’t enough to make ends meet. Every month there was an emergency of some sort or hand wringing letter pleading for help.

Their budget didn’t allow a lot of wiggle room. Unexpected expenses or donation reductions sent everything into a tailspin. The letters were very stressful. Every month there was a calamity. I hated reading them and redirected support to other areas.

You can’t bank on anyone’s resources. Life happens. Forgoing a guaranteed income is reckless and unnecessarily taxing on the individual, their families, and supporters. I know several business owners who provide faith-based products and services. Christians can tight-fisted. I would never forgo the security of an income.

~bella

I dont think anyone is suggesting church leaders should not be supported.

I am raising a much bigger issue of congregations being touched by God's love and power to the extent that they will generously support leaders the Lord raises up and make sure no one in the church family is in need. That is what we read in Acts 4.

 

[bèlla]

I am raising a much bigger issue of congregations being touched by God's love and power to the extent that they will generously support leaders the Lord raises up and make sure no one in the church family is in need. That is what we read in Acts 4.

Congregational initiatives are fine. But it still comes down to giving. It’s impossible to know what people are carrying financially. Incomes haven’t kept pace with the cost of living. Discretionary income isn’t plentiful. And we’re living longer now. That impacts the bottom line.

~bella

 

[Paidiske]

Or, say sometimes the congregation can afford enough for the minister to live on, and sometimes they can't. Are they going to be content with their minister sometimes working a full week, and sometimes picking up casual work elsewhere to make ends meet? Wouldn't it be better if a sustainable fraction of time were agreed to, so that the minister could look for regular part time work elsewhere and the congregation could be clear on when he/she is available for ministry?

This idea that love should just make everything work beautifully isn't very practical.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I guess I am on another planet - I have had nothing and trusted God for years - He is waiting to do the same for our fellowships, but they have made other arrangements.
God wants to pour out provision but cant until we trust Him to provide.
The way I am led is far from 'practical'
This was the mistake made at Ai...
Someone couldn't trust God and so hid some booty (made their own arrangements)
This pulled the whole fellowship into defeat.
Somehow we have created this sophisticated machine that runs independent of total dependence on Him...

As I said,
When your building shakes with the power of God - then I will have an ear on what you did.

I thought Love and power was central to fellowship as in Acts.

Restore this and there will be none needy among you.

 

[Paidiske]

I thought Love and power was central to fellowship as in Acts.

It is. But I can't for the life of me see why a regular agreed stipend is somehow seen as evidence of lack of love. I see it as loving to give people some security in their situation.

 

[Carl Emerson]

My security is in Love... not an employment contract.

 

[Paidiske]

Well, maybe you want to live that way, but it'd be nice if you could avoid criticising people who don't find those two things mutually exclusive (side note: clergy are not technically employees).

 

[Carl Emerson]

I dont find it easy to live this way but if that is what it takes to see Him move - so be it.

I am deeply saddened by the life that brothers and sisters are missing out on.

It is all there in Acts but we have invented a comfortable version that is far from the experience that rocks society.

I am thankful that we have a forum where we can be open and honest about it.

This is not some personal attack - we should be able to discuss such critical issues without taking it personally.

I am not blaming anyone, just raising the issue of the lack of fruit produced by the system we have created.

The equation of... time + effort + money
to
fruit (in terms of conversion growth of brothers and sisters released into and becoming a vibrant loving family)

Sadly often misses the mark...

Some churches are paying more than a million dollars per convert if you analyse the annual budgets.

I would love to discuss this more in a constructive manner but folks get defensive about their patch...