There's a lot of truth to this...

[Paidiske]

Carl, can't you understand why folks get defensive when you say things like "we have invented a comfortable version that is far from the experience that rocks society"?

You're basically accusing us of being lukewarm. And I don't accept the validity of the accusation.

There's absolutely nothing about the church structures as we have them which prevents fruitful outcomes. But the way we inhabit those structures is a different matter...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Surely we are lukewarm - where is the christian voice in society that speaks through souls saved?

And to suggest I am being accusing misses the point - I am saying we need to review the machine we have created - objectively not personally.

Yes some church structures are better than others to facilitate revival when it arrives.

And yes the way we inhabit the structures is exactly my point...

The way I read it we are supposed to create a loving family that is infectious with His Love and moving in His power...

In some cases our churches are more like a museum for a faith that once was...

Yet I am working within it to the best of my ability as an agent of change.

My heart is for His Love and Life to break out and there are many like myself who have similar hope.

 

[Paidiske]

Surely we are lukewarm - where is the christian voice in society that speaks through souls saved?

I see many people who are not at all lukewarm. I hear many Christian voices, and see many Christians active in loving service. I see many people caught up in the life-giving, transformative love of God.

I see plenty of reason to be encouraged.

And to suggest I am being accusing misses the point - I am saying we need to review the machine we have created - objectively not personally.

We need always to be open to reflection and even repentance. But to call the church a "machine" goes far beyond what I could affirm. We are a structure built of living stones.

And yes the way we inhabit the structures is exactly my point...

The way I read it we are supposed to create a loving family that is infectious with His Love and moving in His power...

Agreed. And of course we all share hope for God's life and love to be shared more and more. Which has nothing to do with how you pay your minister. It isn't things like a stipend which are preventing this.

 

[Philip_B]

The Parish where I worship has been served by part time clergy for more than ten years. The up side of that is that there is less expectation that the clergy person should do everything, so numbers of lay folk have stepped up to fill various roles. There is often a conversation that suggests that the Parish has failed in ministry, and perhaps in some sense we have, however on the other hand that is clearly not true, unless your only measure of these things is financial, and even then I notice that we are in the black, not by much, but we are in the black.

Currently our big challenge is that we need an easing of the Covid 19 restrictions. A new person turned up last Sunday, and in order to welcome them, one of our regulars had to leave the building. Otherwise we will have to call it football so we can have a bigger crowd!

 

[Carl Emerson]

And of course we all share hope for God's life and love to be shared more and more. Which has nothing to do with how you pay your minister. It isn't things like a stipend which are preventing this.

I beg to differ - The notion of christian leadership being a professional career filing appointed positions from outside the church family presents an immediate disconnect between the local congregation and the leadership.

The model I see in scripture is local family fellowships recognising and supporting those who God is raising up among them. They then carry a vision that the local family can relate to. There is less 'us and them' with this approach.

However the business approach is preferred often because there is significant real estate involved and the professional management of this has a very high priority.

However apart from all this I have hope that His transforming power and Love can bring fresh life despite the status quo - in that sense we are working together for a better church.

 

[Philip_B]

I beg to differ - The notion of christian leadership being a professional career filing appointed positions from outside the church family presents an immediate disconnect between the local congregation and the leadership.

The model I see in scripture is local family fellowships recognising and supporting those who God is raising up among them. They then carry a vision that the local family can relate to. There is less 'us and them' with this approach.

However the business approach is preferred often because there is significant real estate involved and the professional management of this has a very high priority.

However apart from all this I have hope that His transforming power and Love can bring fresh life despite the status quo - in that sense we are working together for a better church.

We had a bit of go at that is this Diocese, and it has been tried in a couple of others, and generally it has come up short as a model. The Presbyterians, have typically when they had trouble getting clergy, upped the anti on the academic requirements, which has counter intuitively stimulated vocations. This whole area is very complex, and there is, in my view, no silver bullet.

 

[Paidiske]

I beg to differ - The notion of christian leadership being a professional career filing appointed positions from outside the church family presents an immediate disconnect between the local congregation and the leadership.

The Church is always bigger than the local congregation. What we might lose by such a "disconnect," (and there are benefits and drawbacks to the way we do appointments) we gain by the connection to something larger than the immediate community.

The model I see in scripture is local family fellowships recognising and supporting those who God is raising up among them. They then carry a vision that the local family can relate to. There is less 'us and them' with this approach.

So what, then, do we do about (for example) the little rural congregation of about 15 people, all of whom are near or past retirement age, and many of whom are seriously frail? They do not have the capacity to "carry a vision" on their own. They don't even have the capacity to sustain their own life without outside input.

Which is fine in a model where they are part of something bigger, and a measure of leadership and support can come in from "outside." But without that, they'd have to close their doors altogether.

The reality is that there are plenty of congregations where the capacity for effective leadership is seriously limited; which is why the church invests in making sure people with those gifts go to those places. Something of the "fair balance" Paul talks about in 2 Corinthians, in human rather than monetary terms.

However the business approach is preferred often because there is significant real estate involved and the professional management of this has a very high priority.

See, this is just nonsense. It's not a "business" approach. And it's not about money. But it is about having people in place who have the skills and energy and capacity to build community relationships and engage effectively with others.

 

[Carl Emerson]

See, this is just nonsense. It's not a "business" approach. And it's not about money. But it is about having people in place who have the skills and energy and capacity to build community relationships and engage effectively with others.

When I said business, I meant professional.

The chances of having someone with a gift of faith on a finance committee is pretty low. We are talking about a professional calling and professional appointments.

I have seen an eldership crammed with professionals - as if worldly qualifications somehow translate to spiritual leadership.

Anyway I have tried to raise a few issues for consideration...

 

[Paidiske]

When I said business, I meant professional.

And I would argue that in this day and age, some degree of basic professionalism is required in order to function in our society with any credibility and accountability.

The chances of having someone with a gift of faith on a finance committee is pretty low.

Why? People who have skill with managing money can't also have a gift of faith?

We are talking about a professional calling and professional appointments.

This reminds me of something I was told very early in my training: we don't ordain degrees. You need a measure of professionalism, but that doesn't mean you can reduce ministry to a profession.

Anyway I have tried to raise a few issues for consideration...

What I don't think you've demonstrated is the connection you see between things like having paid clergy, and a languishing church. It's a non sequitur. So it just comes across a bit as clergy-bashing.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Not at all - I believe in local family - the modern church no longer does house visits. The church has followed society and congregants are often isolated. This is not the biblical model.

Local family supporting someone in leadership they know well, gives a committed base for support - as in Acts they will not be in want.

This is a much superior model than professionally filled career positions.

What could be clearer than that?

 

[Paidiske]

Not at all - I believe in local family - the modern church no longer does house visits.

That's just completely untrue. I have two house visits in my diary for tomorrow.

The church has followed society and congregants are often isolated. This is not the biblical model.

That is true, but my observation is that (barring physical inability) those folks who are isolated often choose to be so. It does take time to build relationships, to get involved and so on; and sometimes it takes moving from one congregation to another if the fit is poor, but I've never been in a congregation where the care for one another wasn't frankly inspiring. (With the possible exception of the Cathedral, but that is a bit of a peculiar beast, where up to half the worshippers on any given day might be tourists, and not your average parish).

Local family supporting someone in leadership they know well, gives a committed base for support - as in Acts they will not be in want.

Not a given at all. After all, prophets are not without honour except in their own country and in their own house...

What could be clearer than that?

Your argument is full of either untruths (such as a claim that house visits no longer happen), or idealistic claims (such as that a congregation will support one of their own) which, when tested, can be shown to be unreliable.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Congratulations on doing house visits - this is very rare (and you know it)

We are not talking about travelling prophets...

Read Acts 4 again - love broke out - no one was in need.

Claiming that I said house visits dont happen was very accurate - your participation is exceptional.

In 50 years of church I cant remember one house visit.

I would rather believe the Word about what happens when Love breaks out...

 

[Paidiske]

Congratulations on doing house visits - this is very rare (and you know it)

No, it really isn't. Clergy may struggle to fit in as many pastoral visits as we would like, along with everything else, but there's no member of the clergy I know who doesn't do house visits.

This kind of stuff is just untrue and unhelpful.

In 50 years of church I cant remember one house visit.

Did you ever ask for one? Remember that bit about pastoral care being a two-way street?

I would rather believe the Word about what happens when Love breaks out...

Mm-hmm. And in the meantime, those of us who have to minister in the real church as it is, where clergy are often bullied, neglected, burnt out, etc (which is what sparked the article in the first place) will get on with the job, grateful for the provisions the institutional church does make for our well-being.

 

[Carl Emerson]

clergy are often bullied, neglected, burnt out

Mmmm... Time to question the existing structure...

I would like to hear from other readers if house visits by church leaders are common...

Yes I have visited leaders - never the reverse...

 

[coffee4u]

Mmmm... Time to question the existing structure...

I would like to hear from other readers if house visits by church leaders are common...

Yes I have visited leaders - never the reverse...

I think there is a place for both from the first page of this conversation.

The church is not the same as the first century church and can't be. People are not living the same way. The first century church was a tight community. They lived close together or even literally together. Today most of us live some distance away in our own houses and have far more bills and go to church by car. People have children in sports and other things which also takes money, perhaps they shouldn't and the money should all be going to the church but then there may be other social repercussions on the children from doing that.
Like it or not we all have to live in this society and its simply not set up the same way and that has to be taken into account. It has put distance between us, not just in miles but emotionally as well.
We could manage without a computer to run the overhead (it's dying) if we really had to but it would make things difficult and unlike the early church where they were more of one mind in little cells there are now many denominations. Church shopping is unfortunately now more like going to a mall. We desperately need air conditioning and someone who is looking for a church is going to go to the church who, sad to say, has the modern amenities over a little church like ours. And this isn't just because we are being soft, this is rural Australia where the temperatures can get too hot for older people or those with certain conditions, myself being one of those with a chronic condition. I simply can't go to our church once the temperature rises past a certain point. The hottest it gets in Jerusalem is 29.4 degrees C (85F) here it can reach 42C (107.6)

Ours is a small country church and we had no minster for 2 years and got along okay. Sometimes a minister from the next small city would come and preach but that was an hours drive away and he was retired and getting towards the age he should not be driving. We gave whoever preached some of the collection, but some is earmarked for missionaries or other things but I am really glad that we do have a minster now, even though we don't pay him much, he and his wife at least get the manse.

Our ministers have often done visitation.

Some of the the existing structure. (some) is due to living in a modern society and it's repercussions and we can't simply get away from it because it influences all areas of our life. A group would have to live in a commune type situation to be able to fully attempt a first century church.

 

[PloverWing]

I would like to hear from other readers if house visits by church leaders are common...

I can only speak for my parish.

I'm more comfortable meeting with my priest in a neutral place, like a coffee shop (so I don't have to worry about how tidy the house is!), but my priest has made it very clear that he's happy to come visit anyone who wants. We met for coffee soon after he arrived at our parish, to chat and get to know each other.

In pre-COVID days, he had a regular schedule of visits to those who are house-bound (obviously not safe right now). When the pandemic began, he worked with the vestry to set up a schedule of phone calls so that every parishioner would get a call from the priest or a vestry member, once a week or so, to make sure everyone was okay, surviving the pandemic isolation.

It helps that my church is small, about 100 members. In the much larger (~1000 members) church I grew up in, the pastor was a more distant figure.

 

[PloverWing]

I also think that ministry has changed enormously both with the level of technological change in the last generation, and with the level of compliance burden.

I've been on my church's vestry the last couple of years, and it's made me aware of this aspect of what our priest has to do.

Years ago, when I considered the priesthood as a possible vocation, I imagined the priesthood being full of theology and liturgy and Bible interpretation. I didn't realize how much of it was getting the boiler fixed and the lawn mowed and managing a web site and filing financial paperwork. And now, with COVID -- heavens! Church is now simultaneously Zoom, Facebook, and in-person, and requires getting all the computers and cables and microphones hooked up correctly, and wow. I'm amazed that our priest can do all that without complete burnout. I'm actually a bit worried in that regard...

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think there is a place for both from the first page of this conversation.

The church is not the same as the first century church and can't be. People are not living the same way. The first century church was a tight community. They lived close together or even literally together. Today most of us live some distance away in our own houses and have far more bills and go to church by car. People have children in sports and other things which also takes money, perhaps they shouldn't and the money should all be going to the church but then there may be other social repercussions on the children from doing that.
Like it or not we all have to live in this society and its simply not set up the same way and that has to be taken into account. It has put distance between us, not just in miles but emotionally as well.
We could manage without a computer to run the overhead (it's dying) if we really had to but it would make things difficult and unlike the early church where they were more of one mind in little cells there are now many denominations. Church shopping is unfortunately now more like going to a mall. We desperately need air conditioning and someone who is looking for a church is going to go to the church who, sad to say, has the modern amenities over a little church like ours. And this isn't just because we are being soft, this is rural Australia where the temperatures can get too hot for older people or those with certain conditions, myself being one of those with a chronic condition. I simply can't go to our church once the temperature rises past a certain point. The hottest it gets in Jerusalem is 29.4 degrees C (85F) here it can reach 42C (107.6)

Ours is a small country church and we had no minster for 2 years and got along okay. Sometimes a minister from the next small city would come and preach but that was an hours drive away and he was retired and getting towards the age he should not be driving. We gave whoever preached some of the collection, but some is earmarked for missionaries or other things but I am really glad that we do have a minster now, even though we don't pay him much, he and his wife at least get the manse.

Our ministers have often done visitation.

Some of the the existing structure. (some) is due to living in a modern society and it's repercussions and we can't simply get away from it because it influences all areas of our life. A group would have to live in a commune type situation to be able to fully attempt a first century church.

I really appreciate that you have taken the time to respond...

I am not sure that we should simply go with societal shifts of culture and let the church members become more isolated as a result. John 17 speaks of a visible difference between the gathering of the saints and the behaviours of the rest of society - this is meant to be one of the heart changes among believers that is a sign of His Glory. This is what Love does but we seem to have allowed the vital evidence of Church family to largely disappear. I feel this deeply. I wrote a piece on this years ago here... Reflections on Church and Life: Living our Christian Faith Together.
I am partly aware of these trends because part of my career was in Sociology.
Apart from this I have a passion for community because it was the mode of the first vibrant church, fuelled by Jesus Love and power.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Just to say also that I have experienced this breakout of Love first hand in the 70's as the church exploded with a sovereign move of the Spirit and the least were cared for by the loving community that was born for a season.

 

[coffee4u]

I really appreciate that you have taken the time to respond...

I am not sure that we should simply go with societal shifts of culture and let the church members become more isolated as a result. John 17 speaks of a visible difference between the gathering of the saints and the behaviours of the rest of society - this is meant to be one of the heart changes among believers that is a sign of His Glory. This is what Love does but we seem to have allowed the vital evidence of Church family to largely disappear. I feel this deeply. I wrote a piece on this years ago here... Reflections on Church and Life: Living our Christian Faith Together.
I am partly aware of these trends because part of my career was in Sociology.
Apart from this I have a passion for community because it was the mode of the first vibrant church, fuelled by Jesus Love and power.

And I agree with a lot of what you say. But we don't live in a tiny town where we simply walk a few doors down and have a house service. Even though I live in a country town, some of our church members live 20 km out on farms, it separates us without it being intentional. So you end up meeting when both families come to church, this doesn't foster the closeness that having a few small houses clustered together does.

And we can't ignore society, it impacts us even if we try and avoid it and if we are to get non Christians to attend church we won't do it without basic amenities people expect. Church isn't just the saints meeting together, there are kids programs and other things going on. Our kids program is one outreach we have as mostly they come from non Christian families. But to run those we need people and amenities.

I see both sides of the argument. Your view wonderful, but we can't just ignore modern life and people going elsewhere or the people going no where at all because sport is on.