There is NO risk to me if I am wrong about "certain" doctrinal positions.

[ViaCrucis]

Each and every single one of us will need to give answer on the Last Day when we stand before Christ the Judge.

If our sole concern is whether or not we'll "make it" in the end, i.e. "going to heaven" as opposed to "going to hell" then we have probably missed the whole point.

If one is only concerned with the "risk" (i.e eternal condemnation or damnation etc) then the point is missed.

It's not about getting to heaven and avoiding hell. It's about being faithful to Jesus Christ.

Being wrong about the Sabbath and mistakenly thinking you are obligated to observe it isn't going to place you at "risk" for damnation. Obviously.

But that's not the real risk here. The real risk is preaching false doctrine and robbing the Faithful of their hope, the Faithful of their joy, the Faithful of their freedom; and imposing false rules, false commandments, and false religion upon the Faithful.

If you think you won't have to stand and give account for that on the Last Day you are sorely mistaken.

Will it mean you won't have a share in the Life to Come? That's not what I am saying. But you (and I) will have to stand before Christ our God and face the harsh reality of our words and actions. Because on that Day every secret thing will be laid bare as the books are opened and we must confront the truth in all its fiery intensity. For our God is an all-consuming fire. But because He is an all-consuming fire, His love and grace shall burn away all that is impure.

We will stand justified before God on the Last Day on Christ's account, Christ's account alone. For we have been given faith from the Giver of every good and perfect gift, and through faith God has reckoned us justified through faith; faith that receives the full satisfying merit of Christ's atoning work.

Our justification should not be cause for boasting in the face of Judgment; but rather the foundation of a life of devoted good works to our neighbor.

And teaching false doctrine, compelling men to obey false commandments--you are abusing the gifts of God which He has given you and turning them into a mockery. And for that, you will have to stand before the King of kings and Lord of lords and Judge of judges. The good news is that, even in that dark hour there is the grace of God in Christ and your faith shall save you (not because your religious doctrines were right, but because Jesus Christ claims you in Baptism and gives Himself to you in the preaching of the Gospel.

And yes, I will have to stand before Him as well. I don't look to that Day thinking of what I shall say, or thinking of what I have done. I look to that Day with reverent fear and trembling--and hope--hope that the God who receives me in Jesus receives me through the Day of Judgment and into the life everlasting.

I will stand naked on that Day, naked, cold, and alone--except for the warm and invincible robes of Jesus Christ and His righteousness; and on His account and because of Him and what He has said and done alone, I shall be surrounded by the Household of all God's angels and saints, my family.

I, lost beggar, stranger, and sinful wretch that I am have my forever home in Jesus Christ and all that He makes new.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that none of the listed points are concerning matters of doctrine that are salvific, then you would be correct that there would be no risk to yourself.

However, if the matters are in fact concerning points of doctrine which are salvific, then you not only risk your own salvation, you put the salvation of others at risk when you preach them in which case Matthew 18:6 is in play.

So the real question would be, are the doctrines you speak of destructive heresies or are they minor points of doctrine.

And what would be the risk to the OP?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Sadly, people have convinced themselves that God's will for us is not obedience, so they think they are free with God's blessing to do their will over God's will. Or they have convinced themselves that Jesus watered down the commandments of God despite the clear warnings from Jesus that He did not come to destroy the law and keeping the least of the commandments you will be least in heaven. Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus is God, so the law of God is the law of Jesus. John 14:9-11 There is no conflict of the law that Jesus came to magnify. Isaiah 42:21

Grace obviously does not delete the commandments because John so clearly gives us this warning, right before the Second Coming of Jesus!

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (Exodus 20:14) and murderers (Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (Exodus 20-4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (Exodus 20:16).

Similar to the warning Jesus gave: Matthew 7:21-23

So where is the Sabbath commandment after the cross?

Thats easy:

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Jesus referring to the Sabbath as being kept long after He descends back to heaven Matthew 24:20

And absolute proof the Sabbath commandments continues as a perpetual covenant that God promised Exodus 31:16

And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord. Isaiah 66:23

Thats why there remains a Sabbath keeping for the people of God in the New Covenant Hebrews 4:9 Just like God ceased from His works on the seventh day Hebrews 4:4, Hebrews 4:10, Genesis 2:1-3 Exodus 20:10-11 God does not need rest, He is our example!

Why anyone would want to argue with God about the day He deemed holy for us Exodus 20:8 and for Him Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13 is really beyond comprehensible! if God told us to keep Tuesday holy who are we to argue with the Creator of all things!

Jesus even gives us this warning to keep commandments (which is Sabbath keeping Exodus 20:8-11) over traditions (which is Sunday keeping) and doing so we are worshipping in vain! Matthew 15:3-9

Hopefully something to consider praying about.

To be honest, I am surprised that so many people believe for whatever reason Gods' 10 commandments are abolished? I mean for me if we read the bible it is a belief that is not in scripture and is a belief that is a contradiction the whole bible and the teachings of Jesus and all the Apostles in the new testament. Jesus and none of the Apostles taught this teaching. If God's law could be abolished there would be no reason for Jesus to have to come into our world and die for our sins. There would be no reason for the world to be destroyed by a flood or Sodom and Gomorrah by fire or for Jesus to destroy the wicked defined in the scriptures as those who continue in sin, breaking God's commandments and unbelief. It is because Gods' law is not abolished that Jesus had to come as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world because the wages of a single sin is death according to the scriptures.

God bless sis.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

All I can say is you'd do well to read Galatians without the SDA blinders.

What SDA blinders would that be? Only God's Word (scripture) has been shared with you that disagree with your teachings. I did not get them from the SDA Church. I found them in my bible. They are God's Word not my words or the words of the SDA church. Sadly according to Isaiah in Isaiah 6:9-10, Jesus in Matthew 13:13-15 and Paul in Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27 many refuse to see and hear what God says. Let's all pray we are all open (I include myself here) to see and hear Gods Word as He guides is with His Spirit.

Take Care.

 

[Fervent]

What SDA blinders would that be? Only God's Word (scripture) has been shared with you that disagree with your teachings. I did not get them from the SDA Church. I found them in my bible. They are God's Word not my words or the words of the SDA church. Sadly according to Isaiah in Isaiah 6:9-10, Jesus in Matthew 13:13-15 and Paul in Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27 many refuse to see and hear what God says. Let's all pray we are all open (I include myself here) to see and hear Gods Word as He guides is with His Spirit.

Take Care.

The blinders that transform Paul's statements involving "the law" into something other than the law.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Being wrong about the Sabbath and mistakenly thinking you are obligated to observe it isn't going to place you at "risk" for damnation. Obviously.

According to the scriptures, the purpose of God's 10 commandments is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. Sin is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments (James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4) and not believing and following Gods' Word (Romans 14:23). So if Gods' 10 commandments give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break them, but we choose to continue in known unrepentant sin once God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word are we in a saved state with God or an unsaved state with God? (see Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and Hebrews 10:26-31.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The blinders that transform Paul's statements involving "the law" into something other than the law.

Not really. According to the scriptures, James says the law is the mirror (James 1:23-24) that shows us our standing with God and Paul calls the law holy, just and good because it gives us the knowledge of what sin is when we break it (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Romans 7:12). No one is talking about being saved by the law or being justified by the works of the law. So what is your argument? You did not make one and neither were your accusations truthful. Jesus says " They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Matthew 9:12-13). Do you know what these scriptures mean?

Take Care.

 

[Fervent]

Not really. According to the scriptures, James says the law is the mirror (James 1:23-24) that shows us our standing with God and Paul calls the law holy, just and good because it gives us the knowledge of what sin is when we break it (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Romans 7:12). No one is talking about being saved by the law or being justified by the works of the law. So what is your argument? You did not make one and neither were your accusations truthful. Jesus says " They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Matthew 9:12-13). Do you know what these scriptures mean?

Take Care.

If Sabbath observance in accordance to the law isn't about justification, why should we worry about it? Either way salvation is by grace through faith, so there is no risk in failure to observe as we are justified whether we observe or whether we do not observe. So what is the supposed risk you keep speaking of?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Is that your response to Jehovah's Witnesses, Atheists etc? Can you show an example where rejecting Christ as Messiah is "not a problem" - has no "risk" associated with it???

Can you show an example where the difference between "tithing" vs "offerings" becomes a huge problem as if one were rejecting Christ as the Messiah?



Agreed - God is always correct - but is it true that even his own disciples were not 100% correct on everything they thought. For example Peter is not "clued in" on the topic of gentile evangelism until Acts 10.



That statement does not fair well in the first example in the OP since it provides the atheist with "yet another avenue" for rejecting Christ, and the speculation that a "focus on sound doctrine" is "bad" is the opposite teaching from what we find in scripture.

As it turns out: the Bible teaching on "sound doctrine" is not the "optional thing" many may have hoped it would be.

1. 1 Timothy 6:3
   If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
   
2. 2 Timothy 4:3
   For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires,
   
3. Titus 1:9
   holding firmly the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it.
   
4. Titus 2:1
   Proclaim Sound Doctrine
   But as for you, proclaim the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.
5. 1 Peter 3: 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (KJV)
   
   15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; (NKVJ)
6. Acts 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas.
7. Acts 19:8 And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God. 9 But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.

To clarify:

Doctrine doesn't matter so much.

Being born again by the Holy Spirit is all that matters.

You can understand all the doctrine, but without being born again, you're still an atheist reading a bible.

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. We are full of error as humans, but God is up to the task.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

If Sabbath observance in accordance to the law isn't about justification, why should we worry about it? Either way salvation is by grace through faith, so there is no risk in failure to observe as we are justified whether we observe or whether we do not observe. So what is the supposed risk you keep speaking of?

According to the scriptures, Gods' 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-12). In your view if someone is continuing to practice known unrepentant sin are they in a saved state with God or an unsaved state with God according to the scriptures (see Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and compare with Hebrews 10:26-31; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-9 and John 3:36)?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

To clarify:

Doctrine doesn't matter so much.

Being born again by the Holy Spirit is all that matters.

You can understand all the doctrine, but without being born again, you're still an atheist reading a bible.

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. We are full of error as humans, but God is up to the task.

Michael no one is born of the Spirit of God if they are knowingly practicing known unrepentant sin according to the scriptures. That would be a sign that someone does not know God and needs to be born again according to 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:4-9. God's Spirit is the Spirit of the word of God and works through Gods' Word as we believe and follow what God's Word says according to John 17:17; John 6:63; John 8:31-36; Philippians 2:13. Those who are born of God according to 1 John 3:6 do not practice sin (breaking Gods' law).

Take Care.

 

[Fervent]

According to the scriptures, Gods' 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-12). In your view if someone is continuing to practice known unrepentant sin are they in a saved state with God or an unsaved state with God according to the scriptures (see Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and compare with Hebrews 10:26-31; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-9 and John 3:36)?

First, breaking the law is not "known unrepentant sin" unless it is believed we have to be justified according to the law. So it seems your question has to be rephrased to be applicable. If someone in faith believes that the law is put aside and does not abide by its commandments, if it is sin to fail to uphold the commandments the sin is one of ignorance. So is someone who commits sin in ignorance justified by Christ? Or must they be justified in accordance with the law? From whence does justification come?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

First, breaking the law is not "known unrepentant sin" unless it is believed we have to be justified according to the law. So it seems your question has to be rephrased to be applicable. If someone in faith believes that the law is put aside and does not abide by its commandments, if it is sin to fail to uphold the commandments the sin is one of ignorance. So is someone who commits sin in ignorance justified by Christ? Or must they be justified in accordance with the law? From whence does justification come?

1 John 3:4 [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

James 2:10-11 [10], For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law.

Romans 7:7 7, What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.

Compare with...

Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 [30], And the times of this ignorance God winked at [when we do not know any better]; but now [when God gives us a knowledge of the truth] commands all men every where to repent: [31], Because he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; whereof he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.

Compare with...

Hebrews 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

..................


The question was asked to you... In your view, if someone is continuing to practice known unrepentant sin are they in a saved state with God or an unsaved state with God according to the scriptures?

Take Care.

 

[BobRyan]

As it turns out: the Bible teaching on "sound doctrine" is not the "optional thing" many may have hoped it would be.

1. 1 Timothy 6:3
   If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
   
2. 2 Timothy 4:3
   For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires,
   
3. Titus 1:9
   holding firmly the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it.
   
4. Titus 2:1
   Proclaim Sound Doctrine
   But as for you, proclaim the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.
5. 1 Peter 3: 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (KJV)
   
   15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; (NKVJ)
6. Acts 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas.
7. Acts 19:8 And he entered the synagogue and continued speaking out boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God. 9 But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.

To clarify:

Doctrine doesn't matter so much.

Being born again by the Holy Spirit is all that matters.
.

Those texts don't say "have sound doctrine or be born-again". The Bible example is "both-and".

Have sound doctrine AND be born again.

"You shall know the truth AND the truth shall set you free" John 8:32.

By contrast notice in Mark 7:6-12 the faith-destroying damage that false doctrine can cause according to Christ.

===============

Your argument that there are born-again saints among those who have unsound doctrine is not being disputed in this post. But it is not what the Bible calls us to. The Bible calls us to sound doctrine and to the born-again life in Christ who IS "the way the truth and the life" John 14.

 

[BobRyan]

If Sabbath observance in accordance to the law isn't about justification, why should we worry about it?

hmmm "If the command to not take God's name in vain is not about being justified by law -- why should we worry about it"?? IS that really the form of argument you are choosing? When did the Bible ever argue for that idea???

 

[BobRyan]

The blinders that transform Paul's statements involving "the law" into something other than the law.

That's merely an accusation without anything to support it.

I see a lot of threads about that subject in a related forum here and noting of the kind is there. I do not find any "law not the law" statements here or in the forums on that very subject.

 

[Fervent]

1 John 3:4 [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

James 2:10-11 [10], For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law.

Romans 7:7 7, What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.

Compare with...

Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 [30], And the times of this ignorance God winked at [when we do not know any better]; but now [when God gives us a knowledge of the truth] commands all men every where to repent: [31], Because he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; whereof he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.

Compare with...

Hebrews 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

..................


The question was asked to you... In your view, if someone is continuing to practice known unrepentant sin are they in a saved state with God or an unsaved state with God according to the scriptures?

Take Care.

And I have given you the answer to your question, as well as identifying the misleading claim underlying it. Is someone who does not work but trusts God to justify the wicked in a saved or unsaved state? What is the risk, then? You keep asking the same misleading question that has been addressed multiple times over, but you have not addressed a single one of my questions.

 

[Fervent]

That's merely an accusation without anything to support it.

I see a lot of threads about that subject in a related forum here and noting of the kind is there. I do not find any "law not the law" statements here or in the forums on that very subject.

Oh? So then you admit that anyone under the law is under a curse?

 

[BobRyan]

Oh? So then you admit that anyone under the law is under a curse?

The phrase in Rom 3:19-20 "Under the Law" is about the fact that instead of God's moral law being deleted -- it continues and condemns all mankind "every mouth" , and in fact "the whole world" as Paul says in Rom 3.

It says that all need salvation for "all have sinned" and 1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the Law".

What a nice thing then to have the Gospel solution that includes the Jer 31:31-34 NEW Covenant that writes the "LAW of God on heart and mind". With the result that born-again saints "do not abolish the LAW of God by our faith" but rather "we establish the law" Rom 3:31.

However this strays a bit from the OP context and subject title for this thread.

The objective here is to take the doctrinal POV stmts that have no risk if that doctrine is wrong (as we see in the OP) compare that to the opposing argument along with consideration of the risk when that opposing argument is found to be wrong. As I pointed out in the OP.

 

[ViaCrucis]

According to the scriptures, the purpose of God's 10 commandments is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. Sin is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments (James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4) and not believing and following Gods' Word (Romans 14:23). So if Gods' 10 commandments give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break them, but we choose to continue in known unrepentant sin once God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word are we in a saved state with God or an unsaved state with God? (see Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and Hebrews 10:26-31.

Take Care.

And you, knowing the Scriptures (as you claim to) are therefore without excuse for teaching men to sin by presenting observation of the Sabbath as required for the believer in Christ. For whoever seeks to be righteous by the Law shall be made condemned by that same Law.

In this way you present the observation of the Sabbath not as freedom, but as condemnation and death. And so you preach against faith, you preach against grace, and you even preach against good works; for you present faithless works as pleasing to God.

When you observe the Sabbath you blaspheme it by denying He who fulfilled it in your observance. You believe your work is good and pleasing, but it is full of death and sin. This is nothing but the filthy rags that the Prophet Isaiah spoke of so long ago. You bring a sow into the Holy of Holies and dare to call it a lamb.

-CryptoLutheran