There is NO rapture!!!

[createdtoworship]

I already am resurrected in Spirit i am just waiting for Jesus to come in His kingdom so my body will change.
those that have no body at all and are asleep will of course arise out of their sleep and get theirs first.

"tHE resurrection" is the eternal life we live in the presence of Christ

in Rev 20 its called the FIRST resurrection

what about those that get saved during the tribulation and die, when do they get resurrected?

 

[son_flower]

what about those that get saved during the tribulation and die, when do they get resurrected?

When you are born again you are born of the Spirit. Made alive with Christ. When their body dies they will go to heaven and rest like everyone else who is saved.

Jesus brings them back with Him when He comes and we all gather into the Kingdom with new bodies made like His with no boundaries.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

what about those that get saved during the tribulation and die, when do they get resurrected?

The same time everyone else does, at the Lord's coming at the end of the age.

There is only one general resurrection, at Christ's coming.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gnarwhal]

The same time everyone else does, at the Lord's coming at the end of the age.

There is only one general resurrection, at Christ's coming.

-CryptoLutheran

Cool sig picture too...

 

[LovedofHim]

The same time everyone else does, at the Lord's coming at the end of the age.

There is only one general resurrection, at Christ's coming.

-CryptoLutheran

That is incorrect. The resurrection and rapture of the two witnesses *see Rev 11, prior to the coming on the clouds is a sign to Israel (and the world) that God loved the church, who is dwelling in heaven and blasphemed by the antichrist *see Rev 12 and 13, during that time, and took her to be with him just before the Day of the Lord began.

In other words, when the church is resurrected and disappears to heaven, the antichrist comes out and says bad things about God and the church. But then the same thing happens to the two witnesses right before everyone's eyes. Both of these things occur before Jesus comes on the clouds with the glorified church to destroy.

 

[dcyates]

So Left Behind is a lie??

I wouldn't go so far as to say 'Left Behind' is a lie. But the series certainly is fiction. (And yes, the eschatology that lies behind it is deplorable.)

 

[dcyates]

Constantine’s Cross a Symbol of Antichrist?

Labarum Cross​

COGwriter
Did you know that the “cross” became a military symbol after a sun-worshiping Emperor claimed to have a vision and a dream:

In 312, the Roman Emperor Constantine I the Great was in Trier, Germany where he had an unexpected vision of a cross that appeared in the sky..Constantine’s soldiers, the majority of whom were pagans, placed the sacred image of the cross on their shields (Mangan C.M. In This Sign You Conquer, 10/15/03 Copyright © 2004 Catholic Online).
He {Constantine} said that about noon, when the day was already beginning to decline, he saw with his own eyes the trophy of a cross of light in the heavens , above the sun, and bearing the inscription , Conquer by this…in his sleep the Christ of God appeared to him with the same sign which he had seen in the heavens , and commanded him to make a likeness of that sign which he had seen in the heavens , and to use it as a safeguard in all engagements with his enemies….At dawn of day he arose, and communicated the marvel to his friends: and then, calling together the workers in gold and precious stones, he sat in the midst of them, and described to them the figure of the sign he had seen, bidding them represent it in gold and precious stones…
Now it was made in the following manner. A long spear, overlaid with gold, formed the figure of the cross by means of a transverse bar laid over it. On the top of the whole was fixed a wreath of gold and precious stones; and within this, the symbol of the Saviour’s name, two letters indicating the name of Christ by means of its initial characters, the letter P being intersected by X in its centre…
The emperor constantly made use of this sign of salvation as a safeguard against every adverse and hostile power, and commanded that others similar to it should be carried at the head of all his armies. (Eusebius. The Life of Constantine, Book I, Chapters 28,30,31).
​

This type of cross is known as a labarum:

The Labarum (&#9767 was a vexillum (military standard) that displayed the first two Greek letters of the word “Christ” (Greek: ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ, or Χριστό&#962 — Chi (&#967 and Rho (&#961.It was first used by the Roman emperor Constantine I…
Though modern representations of the chi-rho sign represent the two lines crossing at ninety degree angles, the early examples of the Chi-Rho cross at an angle that is more vividly representative of the chi formed by the solar ecliptic path and the celestial equator. This image is most familiar in Plato’s Timaeus…Of Plato’s image in Timaeus, Justin Martyr, the Christian apologist writing in the second century, found a prefiguration of the Cross (Labarum. Wikipedia, viewed 03/04/09).
​

So, the Chi-Rho existed from at least the time of Plato (a pagan philosopher), but was adopted by Constantine centuries after Christ died. The heretic Justin was probably one who originally encouraged its adoption, and he apparently got it from Plato.

http://www.cogwriter.com/news/church-history/constantines-cross-a-symbol-of-antichrist/


Missorium depicting Constantine's son Constantius II, accompanied by a guardsman with the Chi Rho monogram depicted on his shield.



Matthew 7:15
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

In other words, this man looked like a sheep, seemingly supported the sheep's way and led everybody to believe that he himself was in fact a sheep.

What did he do for the sheep?

Brought in pagan rituals, beliefs and practices and "Christianized" them so that every body could be a "sheep".

A wolf in sheep’s clothing,

Love,
Brother Jerry

Has anyone ever heard of the 'genetic fallacy'? Because this is a prime example of that.
But that said, what has any of this to do with the topic of this particular forum?

 

[dcyates]

Ermm don't you think this statement comes off as a bit prideful to the rest of the Body as we are here to discuss and learn of the scriptures. Well unless perhaps the Lord visited one night and revealed all the interpretation of the whole book of Revelation to one person Looks like is this could be another one of those threads.

I know this is old now, but I've been away for awhile and am only now trying to catch up.
Nevertheless, if anybody can find me a single verse in Revelation that teaches any type of 'rapture', I'd be more than pleased to discuss it with them.

 

[dcyates]

I totally agree with this thread. Rapture = heresy.

But I do want to make bank selling rapture helmets (patent pending):

Hilarious!

 

[grabsuccess]

Dcyates, are you really so Blind that you cannot see, or just a troll going tee hee".

Caught Up as used in these verses in Greek ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pad'-zo) v.

means - 1. to seize
KJV: catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force) to snatch away

2 Corinthians 1-4

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 12:5

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pad'-zo) v.
1. to seize
KJV: catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force), to snatch away

This Greek word is so strong that to use it here means to actually pluck, pull, or take with such a sudden forceful action as to snatch you out of the clutches of extreme danger.

If a Mother saw her kid about to chase a ball into the street in the path of an oncoming car - she would if close enough pull on that kids hair, arm or whole body with a loving but incredible force to protect that kid from harm's way.

So, is it with God. He will come to catch us away quickly as danger comes all of a sudden upon the unbelieving that dwell on this Earth.

Even a grade school kid reading the King James Version of the Holy Bible would understand what it simply means when the words "caught up" are used here.

Though "Rapture" is not in the Bible, it is plain to see that this word does not conflict with the words "caught up" as mentioned in the King James Version.

Excerpt about the History of the work "Rapture"
biblefood.com/raphist.html

It is true that the English word "rapture" is not in the Bible, but it comes to us through the writings of William Shakespeare from the Latin "raptus", meaning to seize or transport. According to W.W. Skeat’s "Etymology of the English Language, 1879", the word "rapture" was coined by William Shakespeare. The English word "rapture" that he coined means "to be transported by a lofty emotion or ecstasy". In 1 Thess 4:17, the Church is said to be "caught up" to meet Christ in the air, at the last trump. The Greek word there is "harpadzo" meaning to remove, seize, or take away. So, to me, the English "Caught up"and Latin "Rapture", as well as the Greek word "Removal" in the Bible text are all three good descriptions of the removal of the Church from earth by Jesus in 1 Thess 4:17.

 

[chalkstc]

D,

Nevertheless, if anybody can find me a single verse in Revelation that teaches any type of 'rapture', I'd be more than pleased to discuss it with them.

I've already given you a reply to disprove your false premise, but I'll play you silly game............

Rev 11:11 ​

And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.​

12 ​

​

​

​

And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

There is also the one harvest and two reapings of Rev 14. But how you discount a literal Biblical term such as "harpazo" shows your cynical ignorance of Scripture imo................
​

2 Peter 2:1​

2:1 ​

​

​

​

​

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, ​

​

KJV

Frankie​

​

 

[LovedofHim]

I know this is old now, but I've been away for awhile and am only now trying to catch up.
Nevertheless, if anybody can find me a single verse in Revelation that teaches any type of 'rapture', I'd be more than pleased to discuss it with them.

rev 11:7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[Lisa*Lisa]

There is a rapture, but it comes right before the wrath, the very end.

 

[LovedofHim]

There is a rapture, but it comes right before the wrath, the very end.

Rev 6 shows when wrath begins.


12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The church is standing in heaven, wearing white robes that are given in the 5th seal, having come out of great tribulation that ends at the 5th seal in Revelation 7:

Rev 7:9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The church and the remnant of Israel is the elect for whom the great tribulation that began after the desolation of Israel is cut short before the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord begins during which the devil is cast down and empowers the antichrist.

 

[dcyates]

To all my “no rapture” brethren,

At the very least, you acknowledge that all of us who claim Christ as our Redeemer, no matter what our positions on the 'rapture', are all fellow members of the family of God.

The problem I see with most rapturists and non rapturists alike is that they speak of “rapture” (Latin) or harpazo (Grk) as if it is an event or as if it is a noun. But it is not an event nor should it be designated as “THE” (definite article)…..rapture.

The term is a verb or an action phrase as the following texts should confirm….ie “caught up or caught away” etc………………..
It is used a multitude of times and translated with different words, but the common theme is a “forced snatching”

Read for yourself and don’t shoot the messenger…………………


NT:726

harpazo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications):


KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:726

harpazo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications):


KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Matt 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force .KJV

MAT 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
KJV

John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force , to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
KJV

John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
KJV

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
KJV

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
KJV

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
KJV

Acts 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle.
KJV

2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
KJV

2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV

1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

Jude 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
KJV

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
KJV

So what are we to make out of all this per 1 TH 4? That this “catching up” is only a vehicle to bring the saints from all over the globe, to a central spot in the air as Christ is descending to the Mt of Olives in Israel per Zec 14. How else to you suppose we will all be gathered or get to Israel? A 747? Nada.

Note also, that we all will be in different time zones and some on a different day via the International date line. For some it will be at midnight, some at dawn etc etc. So “no man willl know the hour or the day. But it will be in one 24 hour period, called the DOL which is the one time SC at the end of the age, on the last day of this age and at the last trump……..”immediately AFTER the trib of those days.
AMEN!

Frankie

As I've already mentioned in a previous post, the Greek term harpagmos, or the verb harpazo, was often employed within 'consolation' or funerary language.

...while the verb harpazein is often used in conjunction with the idea of death in ancient literature (Lucian paints the picture of a bereaved father utilizing conventional language as he cries out to his dead son: "Dearest child, you are gone from me, dead, snatched away [harpazein] before your time, leaving me alone and wretched" [Funerals 13])...

However, as I also note...

...it appears that the Jewish apocalyptic writers of the period used this term to refer to those people who will still be alive at the coming of the Day of the Lord. For example, in 4 Ezra we find, "It will be that whoever remains after all that I have foretold to you will be saved and will see my salvation and the end of my world. And they will see the men who were snatched up (harpazein), who from their birth have not tasted death; and the heart of the earth's inhabitants will be changed and converted to a different spirit" (6.25-26), as well as, "Lay up in your heart the signs that I have shown you, the dreams that you have seen, and the interpretations that you have heard; for you will be snatched up (harpazein) from among men, and henceforth you will live with my son and with those like you, until the times are ended" (14.8-9).

And I should probably hasten to add that this is not some sort of pre- or para-Christian, Jewish version of the doctrine of the 'rapture', since the Jews didn't believe that salvation consisted of 'God letting them into heaven after they died'. Instead, their idea of heaven was that God would fulfill his covenant promises and would establish his earthly kingdom.

 

[dcyates]

Dcyates, are you really so Blind that you cannot see, or just a troll going tee hee".

Well, I often like to "tee hee" (although I assure you it's more of a great manly "HA, HA!!!"), but if I understand the metaphoric use of the word "troll" correctly, I NEVER ever ever play the devil's advocate. To the best of my ability, I write what I mean and mean what I write.

Caught Up as used in these verses in Greek ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pad'-zo) v.

means - 1. to seize
KJV: catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force) to snatch away

2 Corinthians 1-4

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 12:5

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

ἁρπάζω harpazo (har-pad'-zo) v.
1. to seize
KJV: catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force), to snatch away

This Greek word is so strong that to use it here means to actually pluck, pull, or take with such a sudden forceful action as to snatch you out of the clutches of extreme danger.

If a Mother saw her kid about to chase a ball into the street in the path of an oncoming car - she would if close enough pull on that kids hair, arm or whole body with a loving but incredible force to protect that kid from harm's way.

So, is it with God. He will come to catch us away quickly as danger comes all of a sudden upon the unbelieving that dwell on this Earth.

Even a grade school kid reading the King James Version of the Holy Bible would understand what it simply means when the words "caught up" are used here.

Though "Rapture" is not in the Bible, it is plain to see that this word does not conflict with the words "caught up" as mentioned in the King James Version.

Excerpt about the History of the work "Rapture"
biblefood.com/raphist.html

It is true that the English word "rapture" is not in the Bible, but it comes to us through the writings of William Shakespeare from the Latin "raptus", meaning to seize or transport. According to W.W. Skeat’s "Etymology of the English Language, 1879", the word "rapture" was coined by William Shakespeare. The English word "rapture" that he coined means "to be transported by a lofty emotion or ecstasy". In 1 Thess 4:17, the Church is said to be "caught up" to meet Christ in the air, at the last trump. The Greek word there is "harpadzo" meaning to remove, seize, or take away. So, to me, the English "Caught up"and Latin "Rapture", as well as the Greek word "Removal" in the Bible text are all three good descriptions of the removal of the Church from earth by Jesus in 1 Thess 4:17.

Right. A hardy 'Amen' to all of this. And with regard to your definitions of the Greek term harpazo above, because of the way the word is used in Jewish apocalyptic literature that is contemporary with Paul, it would appear that the word developed a connotative sense in that it referred to God faithfully keeping his people safe. This fits nicely with the entire purpose of 1 Thessalonians 4.13-18, where Paul's aim is to assure the Thessalonian Christians that their deceased loved ones have in no way missed out on the ultimate glory to come with Jesus' parousia.

 

[LovedofHim]

[/color][/size]
Well, I often like to "tee hee" (although I assure you it's more of a great manly "HA, HA!!!"), but if I understand the metaphoric use of the word "troll" correctly, I NEVER ever ever play the devil's advocate. To the best of my ability, I write what I mean and mean what I write.

Right. A hardy 'Amen' to all of this. And with regard to your definitions of the Greek term harpazo above, because of the way the word is used in Jewish apocalyptic literature that is contemporary with Paul, it would appear that the word developed a connotative sense in that it referred to God faithfully keeping his people safe. This fits nicely with the entire purpose of 1 Thessalonians 4.13-18, where Paul's aim is to assure the Thessalonian Christians that their deceased loved ones have in no way missed out on the ultimate glory to come with Jesus' parousia.

Even the devil knows there's a rapture of the church because his antichrist blasphemes the church who will be dwelling there in heaven as he is empowered for 42 months:

Rev 12:10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


Rev 13: 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

 

[createdtoworship]

The same time everyone else does, at the Lord's coming at the end of the age.

There is only one general resurrection, at Christ's coming.

-CryptoLutheran

from rapture forums:

The resurrection of the just will occur in stages, and the stages will correspond with the three stages of a Jewish harvest: the first fruits, followed by the general harvest, and concluded with the gleanings. Jesus was the "first fruits" (1 Corinthians 15:23). The general harvest will occur at the Rapture when the Church Age saints will be resurrected and the living saints will be translated. The gleanings will occur at the end of the Tribulation at the Second Coming of Jesus. That is when the Old Testament saints and Tribulation martyrs will be resurrected.

 

[the geech]

from rapture forums:

Hm, at least the source isn't bias.

On another note CryptoLutheran is spot on, the only time we will be going anywhere is at Christ's return, but that'll be momentary as we will be ushering Him into His rightful and completed Kingdom, as was the tradition of the culture He was born into.

 

[createdtoworship]

Hm, at least the source isn't bias.

On another note CryptoLutheran is spot on, the only time we will be going anywhere is at Christ's return, but that'll be momentary as we will be ushering Him into His rightful and completed Kingdom, as was the tradition of the culture He was born into.

what is biased?