There is NO rapture!!!

[yedida]

Then who is the restrainer that Paul said has to DEPART before the man of sin can be revealed?

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

Our gathering together unto Jesus is different from the moment when He comes on the clouds to destroy. At the time when we are gathered to Jesus, he appears and we are caught up to meet him in the air. We know that we are going to the New Jerusalem in heaven, the city prepared for us, at the throne of God.

1 Thess 4 and 5 as well as Rev 12 and 13 PROVE that it is the church that must depart before the man of sin is revealed on the Day of the Lord.

If we are "going up to the New Jerusalem in heaven" why is there gonna be a new heaven and a new earth (Rev. 21:1)?

 

[LovedofHim]

If we are "going up to the New Jerusalem in heaven" why is there gonna be a new heaven and a new earth (Rev. 21:1)?

When does it say there is a new heaven/new earth:

Revelation 21


1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


There is death during the millennium. There is disobedience during the millennium. They practice the feast of Tabernacles during the millennium. Why do you think the church is ruling and reigning with Christ for 1000 years? Who are we reigning over and why?

When is death destroyed:


7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[son_flower]

good one, I will try not to misstype again.

Gradyll I was not talking about a mis spelling.

LOL brother.

I mean that in the verse it sais, only there is one who is withholding, and until he be taken out of the way....

most translations do not capitalize it. Whenever the Holy Spirit is referred to its He or Comforter etc...
Like a proper name.

I put the other scripture just to show you how Jesus said the Comforter would be with us forever.

LOL these messages can mistaken easy.

My problem with the pretrib thing is its hidden. It does not say out loud anywhere that we are escorted to heaven. If a verse can't say it plainly then its not for me. Every other doctrine is plain.
It does say all over the place that He is coming back again. Back again means back to where He was.
It is better for me to stick with one Second coming to earth like Jesus said and one grand resurrection of all like it sais.
Otherwise it makes no sense how God is so powerful and has to take us away while Paul and everyone else had it hard.
Plus there is no point in coming back with those asleep and going back and forth.

 

[son_flower]

If we are "going up to the New Jerusalem in heaven" why is there gonna be a new heaven and a new earth (Rev. 21:1)?

Good point.

 

[yedida]

Gradyll I was not talking about a mis spelling.

LOL brother.

I mean that in the verse it sais, only there is one who is withholding, and until he be taken out of the way....

most translations do not capitalize it. Whenever the Holy Spirit is referred to its He or Comforter etc...
Like a proper name.

I put the other scripture just to show you how Jesus said the Comforter would be with us forever.

LOL these messages can mistaken easy.

My problem with the pretrib thing is its hidden. It does not say out loud anywhere that we are escorted to heaven. If a verse can't say it plainly then its not for me. Every other doctrine is plain.
It does say all over the place that He is coming back again. Back again means back to where He was.
It is better for me to stick with one Second coming to earth like Jesus said and one grand resurrection of all like it sais.
Otherwise it makes no sense how God is so powerful and has to take us away while Paul and everyone else had it hard.
Plus there is no point in coming back with those asleep and going back and forth.

You've got a nice, good attitude toward all this.
It really makes no difference whatsoever when the "rapture" takes place or if there even is one like what many are expecting.
Prepare for hard times, pray for good time but be ready in season and out to be with the Lord wherever He is.
The above prescription is enough to fill one's thoughts each day we're given anew. Why desire to make it more difficult forever debating it? Makes no sense.

Keep lookin' up!

 

[yedida]

When does it say there is a new heaven/new earth:

Revelation 21


1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


There is death during the millennium. There is disobedience during the millennium. They practice the feast of Tabernacles during the millennium. Why do you think the church is ruling and reigning with Christ for 1000 years? Who are we reigning over and why?

When is death destroyed:


7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I haven't been looking for answers, just thought maybe if you were pointed to some of your errors you might rethink your position. Guess not. But just in case you're wrong, it might behoove you to look into what to expect if the rest of us are right and we're here to see most of it happen. (See, for us, if we're wrong, it's no problem, we won't be here to be deceived. We're prepared either way, to go or to stay and survive.)

 

[zeke37]

Then who is the restrainer that Paul said has to DEPART before the man of sin can be revealed?

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

Our gathering together unto Jesus is different from the moment when He comes on the clouds to destroy. At the time when we are gathered to Jesus, he appears and we are caught up to meet him in the air. We know that we are going to the New Jerusalem in heaven, the city prepared for us, at the throne of God.

1 Thess 4 and 5 as well as Rev 12 and 13 PROVE that it is the church that must depart before the man of sin is revealed on the Day of the Lord.

nope

 

[createdtoworship]

Gradyll I was not talking about a mis spelling.

LOL brother.

I mean that in the verse it sais, only there is one who is withholding, and until he be taken out of the way....

most translations do not capitalize it. Whenever the Holy Spirit is referred to its He or Comforter etc...
Like a proper name.

I put the other scripture just to show you how Jesus said the Comforter would be with us forever.

LOL these messages can mistaken easy.

My problem with the pretrib thing is its hidden. It does not say out loud anywhere that we are escorted to heaven. If a verse can't say it plainly then its not for me. Every other doctrine is plain.
It does say all over the place that He is coming back again. Back again means back to where He was.
It is better for me to stick with one Second coming to earth like Jesus said and one grand resurrection of all like it sais.
Otherwise it makes no sense how God is so powerful and has to take us away while Paul and everyone else had it hard.
Plus there is no point in coming back with those asleep and going back and forth.

1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

you can't be resurrected if your alive....

 

[Biblewriter]

Who is "they"?

I don't know what "replacement theology" is. I do know what the 180 year old "dispensational theology" is that came from Margaret McDonald of Glasgow Scotland is though. It attempts to replace the Israel Church Newly Married Bride of Christ with a doctrine of "futurism" saying that the prophecies were NOT fulfilled. Those are doctrines of devils. The doctrines of "futurism".

Name just one unfulfilled O.T. prophecy lovedofhim. I'll show you, or any number of other folks can show you in scripture where it is fulfilled in the New Testament in Christ and His New Jerusalem Wife who has been producing children of God for 2000 years now.

Nothing of what I share has anything to do with "what I like". Although I do Love Jesus and His Word. I am a true Berean in proving all things and holding fast that which is good and rebuking the false doctrines introduced by the wolves in sheep clothing.

So yes, the OP is 100% correct here.
Praise Jesus!

it would be difficult to combine more error into a few words than this post has done.

Margaret MacDonald of Glasgow did not teach dispensationalism. She reported a confused vision which included a pre-tribulational rapture. But this same alleged vision also included the church in great danger from the Antichrist. Darby, who revived dispensationalism a little later, visited her church and declared it to be of Satanic origin. There is zero evidence that Darby ever even heard about the alleged vision, and he strongly denounced any reliance on modern visions as a source of truth. He also strongly denounced any participation of women in any spiritual teaching of any kind, except privately to other women. So even if Darby had perchance heard about the alleged vision, he would have paid no attention whatsoever to it.

And Dispensationalism can be found in the oldest prophetic writings of the church. Irenaeus, who wrote less than a hundred years after the Revelation was given, wrote of the evil of the nations and then said, "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption'" (Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXIX, section 2.) In this short statement we see the following dispensational concepts:

First, the church will be "suddenly caught up."

Second, after the church is "Suddenly caught up," "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." Lest anyone claim that this is not specifically stated to be "after: the church is "suddenly caught up," please note that the grammatical construction (when) -- (one event takes place) -- (another event takes place) is either a specifically stated sequence or a a statement that they take place at the same time. But when the first event is instantaneous and the second event requires an extended period of time, this is a clearly stated sequence.

Third, this period of tribulation is specifically called "the last contest of the righteous." and it specifically says of these righteous in this particular contest, "in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption." It is clearly dispensational doctrine that after the church is "suddenly caught up" there will be a righteous remnant that will undergo a great trial of faith, and that, when they triumph in this trial, they will be crowned with righteousness.

And finally on this point, sometime before the year 800, an unknown author wrote, "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." (On the last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, section 2.) I say this author is unknown because one ancient manuscript says it was written by Isadore of Sevelle and three say it was written by Ephraem. Because the ones saying it was written by Ephraem were better known, scholarrs began to call this unknown writer Pseudo-Ephraem, because they concluded that it could have been written by the famous Ephraem of Sevelle. But whoever wrote it, and whenever it was written, all four of these manuscripts were in church libraries more than a thousand years before 1800.

And there is absolutely no way to even pretend that Micah 5:5-6 has ever been fulfilled. In that prophecy we read, "And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders." When Sennacherib invaded Judea, there was no strength to resist his attack, and no Israeli army has ever invaded Assyria. It is the same with the detailed description of the path the Assyrian will follow when He attacks. Isaiah 10:28-32 says, "He is come to Aiath, he is passed to Migron; at Michmash he hath laid up his carriages: They are gone over the passage: they have taken up their lodging at Geba; Ramah is afraid; Gibeah of Saul is fled. Lift up thy voice, O daughter of Gallim: cause it to be heard unto Laish, O poor Anathoth. Madmenah is removed; the inhabitants of Gebim gather themselves to flee. As yet shall he remain at Nob that day: he shall shake his hand against the mount of the daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem." There is no single fact of ancient history more absolutely established than that this is not the path that Sennacherib followed in his campaign against Hezekiah.

But Isaiah 14:29-32, immediately after announcing the (at that time future) destruction of Sennacherib, says, "Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent’s root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant. Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it." While symbolic language is used here, it clearly announces two future attackers, separated by an unspecified number of generations. Fot the second attacker is the "fruit" of the first.

So a future attack on Judea (which is now called Israel) is unquestionably prophesied in the scriptures. And the prophecies clearly say it will result in the final blessing of Israel. This is only one of many explicitly prophesied future events which have most unquestionably not been fulfilled.

 

[NJBeliever]

"Name one unfulfilled OT prophecy.."


Isaiah 17 1The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

Damascus is the oldest city in the world. I keep asking, when was this prophecy fulfilled?? What year did that happen?? Somehow no one ever seems to respond.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Our gathering together unto Jesus is different from the moment when He comes on the clouds to destroy. At the time when we are gathered to Jesus, he appears and we are caught up to meet him in the air. We know that we are going to the New Jerusalem in heaven, the city prepared for us, at the throne of God.

1 Thess 4 and 5 as well as Rev 12 and 13 PROVE that it is the church that must depart before the man of sin is revealed on the Day of the Lord.

No, 1 Thessalonians proves no such thing. Revelation 12 and 13 prove no such thing. First, Revelation requires everyone to accept your interpretation of the symbolism. Part of the problem is you think your interpretation is correct when it is not. 1 Thessalonians never says when the event will take place. So you have no basis for assuming it must be pre-tribulation. You are inferring that based on your indoctrination. You are not deriving that from the passage because you simply can’t. It never gives us a clue as to when the snatching away will take place. It only confirms that a resurrection will happen.

Again, 2 Thessalonians 2 shows Paul writing to them concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul goes on to say that the man of sin will be brought to nothing or destroyed with the brightness of that same coming of our Lord Jesus Christ that he told us he was talking about in verse 1.

 

[LovedofHim]

No, 1 Thessalonians proves no such thing. Revelation 12 and 13 prove no such thing. First, Revelation requires everyone to accept your interpretation of the symbolism. Part of the problem is you think your interpretation is correct when it is not. 1 Thessalonians never says when the event will take place. So you have no basis for assuming it must be pre-tribulation. You are inferring that based on your indoctrination. You are not deriving that from the passage because you simply can’t. It never gives us a clue as to when the snatching away will take place. It only confirms that a resurrection will happen.

Again, 2 Thessalonians 2 shows Paul writing to them concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul goes on to say that the man of sin will be brought to nothing or destroyed with the brightness of that same coming of our Lord Jesus Christ that he told us he was talking about in verse 1.

That is incorrect. The scriptures prove it.

What you are missing in your understanding is when the Day of the Lord begins and what happens at that moment.

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.


2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction

2Th 2:13But we are bound to always give thanks to God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth;
2Th 2:14to which he called you through our Good News, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah.



Paul tells us in 2 Thess 2 and in 1 Thess 4/5 that the church is removed before the Day of the Lord begins. I just showed you 2 Thess 2, now I will show you 1 Thess 4/5:


16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
...
.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


In Rev 6, we're told exactly when that Day begins and the white robes (glorified bodies) are given BEFORE it AND we are also told the antichrist does his thing AFTER it has begun:

Rev 6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 9

1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

That is incorrect. The scriptures prove it.

What you are missing in your understanding is when the Day of the Lord begins and what happens at that moment.

...


Paul tells us in 2 Thess 2 and in 1 Thess 4/5 that the church is removed before the Day of the Lord begins. I just showed you 2 Thess 2, now I will show you 1 Thess 4/5:

Your problem LovedofHim is that you are quoting the Scriptures and then arguing your interpretation of them as if it were fact. Yet those same Scriptures are used to refute exactly what you are saying. An example is that you are convinced that your misunderstanding of 2 Thes 2 is correct. So you continue to argue as if because you think it speaks of a rapture in verse 3, then that is the end of the discussion on the matter, and we must all agree with that interpretation, and thus you have “proven” your point.

The problem is that you have not proven anything. You have not proven that Paul is speaking about a rapture. All evidence, which has been pointed out numerous times on different threads, and you have not dealt with any of it or even acknowledged any of it, clearly shows how that passage should be translated and understood. At best you have an ambiguous passage that you cannot point to as irrefutable proof of your position because there is a very plausible alternative way to interpreting it which is supported by plenty of literary evidence and actual examples of how the word was used during the time. All evidence suggests it should not be seen the way you want to see it. So since I do not concede that your misinterpretation of the word apostasia is correct, you have not proven anything by citing that passage. That same passage, when read correctly, absolutely refutes what you are saying.

At worst you are simply wrong, which all evidence I’ve seen suggests you are. Again, even if you could be right (which I am not saying), it would only demonstrate the possibility that it could be seen another way. It would not disprove that it could mean falling away or apostasy. So it would still be a bad passage to try to use as evidence for your pre-trib view. This is not even taking into account how illogical the passage sounds when read the way you are trying to interpret it.

That being said, you’d be better served to stay away from passages like that and stick to passages that such arguments cannot be made about. As for 1 Thessalonians, you are in the same boat. You cannot prove that Paul is speaking about an event that happens pre-trib. Why? The reason is that he never says when it will take place. You are assuming he is speaking about a pre-trib rapture because that is what you already believe. Yet the passage never tells us that this resurrection is happening pre/mid/post or anything else. It only states that it will happen. Again, using that particular text is not proving anything.

If you want a good example of making an argument for your position, consider Biblewriter’s post here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7536475-13/#post56859429l. This is an excellent example of how to make an argument for your position. Simply reciting the same Scriptures over and over and expecting everyone to read them according to your interpretation is not proving anything. Your view is in the minority. Even other pre-trib position holders disagree with your interpretation of that passage. They concur that it is speaking about a falling away, apostasy or rebellion. You have yet to provide any compelling evidence to even consider a different interpretation or concede to the possibility of one.

The only thing you have done is try to break down the word “apostasia” which is no different than trying to break down the word “someone”. Yet literary use of the word shows its meaning as something much different just as using the whole word “someone” shows that trying to break it down to a literal definition of “some” (which is part of a whole amount) and “one” (a number, perhaps solo or one of many, can refer to anything) could lead to an erroneous understanding of the actual word “someone” (which is used to denote an entity, particularly a single or individual person; related to the words “some” and “one”? Yes. But the actual definition derived from its use separates it and distinguishes it as having a certain meaning just as “apostasia” has a certain meaning).

 

[zeke37]

if u call her a pre tribber, she will disagree...
if u say pre trib is wrong, then she will agree...

she defines herself differently than the rest of us define her...
but even the pre tribbers realize that she is one of them...

 

[zeke37]

it would be difficult to combine more error into a few words than this post has done.

Margaret MacDonald of Glasgow did not teach dispensationalism. She reported a confused vision which included a pre-tribulational rapture. But this same alleged vision also included the church in great danger from the Antichrist. Darby, who revived dispensationalism a little later, visited her church and declared it to be of Satanic origin. There is zero evidence that Darby ever even heard about the alleged vision, and he strongly denounced any reliance on modern visions as a source of truth. He also strongly denounced any participation of women in any spiritual teaching of any kind, except privately to other women. So even if Darby had perchance heard about the alleged vision, he would have paid no attention whatsoever to it.

when I read the "dream" online,
the "dream" showed an unquestionable post trib gathering...
at least that is how i viewed it, whether it is right or wrong.

 

[LovedofHim]

Your problem LovedofHim is that you are quoting the Scriptures and then arguing your interpretation of them as if it were fact. Yet those same Scriptures are used to refute exactly what you are saying. An example is that you are convinced that your misunderstanding of 2 Thes 2 is correct. So you continue to argue as if because you think it speaks of a rapture in verse 3, then that is the end of the discussion on the matter, and we must all agree with that interpretation, and thus you have “proven” your point.

The problem is that you have not proven anything. You have not proven that Paul is speaking about a rapture. All evidence, which has been pointed out numerous times on different threads, and you have not dealt with any of it or even acknowledged any of it, clearly shows how that passage should be translated and understood. At best you have an ambiguous passage that you cannot point to as irrefutable proof of your position because there is a very plausible alternative way to interpreting it which is supported by plenty of literary evidence and actual examples of how the word was used during the time. All evidence suggests it should not be seen the way you want to see it. So since I do not concede that your misinterpretation of the word apostasia is correct, you have not proven anything by citing that passage. That same passage, when read correctly, absolutely refutes what you are saying.

At worst you are simply wrong, which all evidence I’ve seen suggests you are. Again, even if you could be right (which I am not saying), it would only demonstrate the possibility that it could be seen another way. It would not disprove that it could mean falling away or apostasy. So it would still be a bad passage to try to use as evidence for your pre-trib view. This is not even taking into account how illogical the passage sounds when read the way you are trying to interpret it.

That being said, you’d be better served to stay away from passages like that and stick to passages that such arguments cannot be made about. As for 1 Thessalonians, you are in the same boat. You cannot prove that Paul is speaking about an event that happens pre-trib. Why? The reason is that he never says when it will take place. You are assuming he is speaking about a pre-trib rapture because that is what you already believe. Yet the passage never tells us that this resurrection is happening pre/mid/post or anything else. It only states that it will happen. Again, using that particular text is not proving anything.

If you want a good example of making an argument for your position, consider Biblewriter’s post here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7536475-13/#post56859429l. This is an excellent example of how to make an argument for your position. Simply reciting the same Scriptures over and over and expecting everyone to read them according to your interpretation is not proving anything. Your view is in the minority. Even other pre-trib position holders disagree with your interpretation of that passage. They concur that it is speaking about a falling away, apostasy or rebellion. You have yet to provide any compelling evidence to even consider a different interpretation or concede to the possibility of one.

The only thing you have done is try to break down the word “apostasia” which is no different than trying to break down the word “someone”. Yet literary use of the word shows its meaning as something much different just as using the whole word “someone” shows that trying to break it down to a literal definition of “some” (which is part of a whole amount) and “one” (a number, perhaps solo or one of many, can refer to anything) could lead to an erroneous understanding of the actual word “someone” (which is used to denote an entity, particularly a single or individual person; related to the words “some” and “one”? Yes. But the actual definition derived from its use separates it and distinguishes it as having a certain meaning just as “apostasia” has a certain meaning).

Do you or do you not see that 2 Thess 2 and 1 Thess 4/5 are speaking of the same moment in time?

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.


2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction

2Th 2:13But we are bound to always give thanks to God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth;
2Th 2:14to which he called you through our Good News, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah.



1 Thess 4/5:


16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
...
.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath (day of the Lord), but to obtain salvation (at departure) by our Lord Jesus Christ,


Do you or do you not see that the church is "gathered together unto Him" prior to the Day of the Lord?

Do you or do you not see that the antichrist is around ON the Day of the Lord, during the time of wrath?

 

[B1inHim]

WOW, still at it huh?

You would think that with such a great cloud of witness surrounding this person they would actually see that they are making a mistake.

Even King Jesus ( I like the way that sounds KING JESUS!)... Even King Jesus tells us that there will be a falling away from fellowship (see brothers and sisters part of Matthew 24) and the AC being revealed and Mega Tribulation and THEN He shows up.

Yes there is a "harpazo".

It will take place sometime between very soon and later on.

There is actually a "falling away" from the faith taking place even as this circus is going on.

SO according to II Thes 2:3, we are right on track with the term of apostasia meaning apostasy.

Meaning that the next expected event to take place is the AC being exposed...

And according to several that I know, he has been exposed by Holy Spirit.

We still have yet to see the red moon 6th seal happen and that happens just before King Jesus sends out His angels to gather us up.

According to King Jesus (there it is again) He did not say that the AC would be exposed AFTER He gathered us up.

Too many people, too many slight contradictions, one answer.

When He comes, be ready or you won't go with Him when He moves on.

Love,
Brother Jerry

 

[LovedofHim]

Described below is a resurrection and gathering to God prior to wrath, during which the antichrist has his 42 months.

19 But your dead will live, LORD;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead. 20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

36 “The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.


Daniel 8:19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power. 23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

 

[yedida]

WOW, still at it huh?

You would think that with such a great cloud of witness surrounding this person they would actually see that they are making a mistake.

Even King Jesus ( I like the way that sounds KING JESUS!)... Even King Jesus tells us that there will be a falling away from fellowship (see brothers and sisters part of Matthew 24) and the AC being revealed and Mega Tribulation and THEN He shows up.

Yes there is a "harpazo".

It will take place sometime between very soon and later on.

There is actually a "falling away" from the faith taking place even as this circus is going on.

SO according to II Thes 2:3, we are right on track with the term of apostasia meaning apostasy.

Meaning that the next expected event to take place is the AC being exposed...

And according to several that I know, he has been exposed by Holy Spirit.

We still have yet to see the red moon 6th seal happen and that happens just before King Jesus sends out His angels to gather us up.

According to King Jesus (there it is again) He did not say that the AC would be exposed AFTER He gathered us up.

Too many people, too many slight contradictions, one answer.

When He comes, be ready or you won't go with Him when He moves on.

Love,
Brother Jerry

Eyes should be peeled on Barry Hussein Obama ben Lyin'

 

[zeke37]

Described below is a resurrection and gathering to God prior to wrath, during which the antichrist has his 42 months.

19 But your dead will live, LORD;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead. 20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

no one disputes His wrath JensGhost/HisdaughterJen/LovedofHim
you just wanna say that this is during the time/times and half a time,
when it is after that

36 “The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

who's wrath? the king's wrath obviously,
you know, it's in the same verse...
the king that does as he pleases, who magnifies himself

Daniel 8:19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power. 23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

KJV
19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Strong's for indignation
2195
za`am
zah'-am
from 'za`am' (2194); strictly froth at the mouth, i.e. (figuratively) fury (especially of God's displeasure with sin):--angry, indignation, rage.


not the wrath that we are kept from