There is NO rapture!!!

Kingdom_Come

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I agree with your posts but

the king james mentions a falling away not a departure....talking about a falling away of the apostacy I believe.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (King James Version)

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


And you would be right. However, LovedofHim continues to bring this up on many different threads. As a result, no one is probably able to follow a single thread on the subject. It makes it confusing for those who are following one thread and none of the others. She refuses to acknowledge or deal with any of the evidence for how the word she is mistranslating (or more so defining improperly because of her pre-trib view) has actually been used, and therefore what it actually means.
 
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interpreter

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I've seen you post this many times. Does it bother you from a spiritual standpoint that the "cross" Constantine saw was an Egyptian ankh??
I don't know what an ankh is, but Constantine definitely saw a cross. You can see it too with any good star-tracking software.
 
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B1inHim

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Constantine’s Cross a Symbol of Antichrist?

labarum_cross.png

Labarum Cross​
COGwriter
Did you know that the “cross” became a military symbol after a sun-worshiping Emperor claimed to have a vision and a dream:
In 312, the Roman Emperor Constantine I the Great was in Trier, Germany where he had an unexpected vision of a cross that appeared in the sky..Constantine’s soldiers, the majority of whom were pagans, placed the sacred image of the cross on their shields (Mangan C.M. In This Sign You Conquer, 10/15/03 Copyright © 2004 Catholic Online).
He {Constantine} said that about noon, when the day was already beginning to decline, he saw with his own eyes the trophy of a cross of light in the heavens , above the sun, and bearing the inscription , Conquer by this…in his sleep the Christ of God appeared to him with the same sign which he had seen in the heavens , and commanded him to make a likeness of that sign which he had seen in the heavens , and to use it as a safeguard in all engagements with his enemies….At dawn of day he arose, and communicated the marvel to his friends: and then, calling together the workers in gold and precious stones, he sat in the midst of them, and described to them the figure of the sign he had seen, bidding them represent it in gold and precious stones…
Now it was made in the following manner. A long spear, overlaid with gold, formed the figure of the cross by means of a transverse bar laid over it. On the top of the whole was fixed a wreath of gold and precious stones; and within this, the symbol of the Saviour’s name, two letters indicating the name of Christ by means of its initial characters, the letter P being intersected by X in its centre…
The emperor constantly made use of this sign of salvation as a safeguard against every adverse and hostile power, and commanded that others similar to it should be carried at the head of all his armies. (Eusebius. The Life of Constantine, Book I, Chapters 28,30,31).
This type of cross is known as a labarum:
The Labarum (☧) was a vexillum (military standard) that displayed the first two Greek letters of the word “Christ” (Greek: ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ, or Χριστός) — Chi (χ) and Rho (ρ).It was first used by the Roman emperor Constantine I…
Though modern representations of the chi-rho sign represent the two lines crossing at ninety degree angles, the early examples of the Chi-Rho cross at an angle that is more vividly representative of the chi formed by the solar ecliptic path and the celestial equator. This image is most familiar in Plato’s Timaeus…Of Plato’s image in Timaeus, Justin Martyr, the Christian apologist writing in the second century, found a prefiguration of the Cross (Labarum. Wikipedia, viewed 03/04/09).
So, the Chi-Rho existed from at least the time of Plato (a pagan philosopher), but was adopted by Constantine centuries after Christ died. The heretic Justin was probably one who originally encouraged its adoption, and he apparently got it from Plato.

http://www.cogwriter.com/news/church-history/constantines-cross-a-symbol-of-antichrist/


Missorium depicting Constantine's son Constantius II, accompanied by a guardsman with the Chi Rho monogram depicted on his shield.



Matthew 7:15
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

In other words, this man looked like a sheep, seemingly supported the sheep's way and led everybody to believe that he himself was in fact a sheep.

What did he do for the sheep?

Brought in pagan rituals, beliefs and practices and "Christianized" them so that every body could be a "sheep".

A wolf in sheep’s clothing,

Love,
Brother Jerry
 
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Gnarwhal

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Hold the phone... Did you just claim that the Emperor that held the First Council of Nicaea and officially legalized Christianity in the Roman Empire was a "wolf"?

You say he "Christianized" pagan rituals, but what do you make of the fact that a Roman execution stake was transformed into a symbol of salvation? Or that the alter system utilized by the Jews predates Abraham and the Jewish religion?

The historic Christian and Jewish faiths have a significant track record of transforming rituals and symbols whose origins were not Christian, claiming them for the Kingdom of God.
 
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yedida

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Constantine’s Cross a Symbol of Antichrist?

labarum_cross.png

Labarum Cross​
COGwriter
Did you know that the “cross” became a military symbol after a sun-worshiping Emperor claimed to have a vision and a dream:
In 312, the Roman Emperor Constantine I the Great was in Trier, Germany where he had an unexpected vision of a cross that appeared in the sky..Constantine’s soldiers, the majority of whom were pagans, placed the sacred image of the cross on their shields (Mangan C.M. In This Sign You Conquer, 10/15/03 Copyright © 2004 Catholic Online).
He {Constantine} said that about noon, when the day was already beginning to decline, he saw with his own eyes the trophy of a cross of light in the heavens , above the sun, and bearing the inscription , Conquer by this…in his sleep the Christ of God appeared to him with the same sign which he had seen in the heavens , and commanded him to make a likeness of that sign which he had seen in the heavens , and to use it as a safeguard in all engagements with his enemies….At dawn of day he arose, and communicated the marvel to his friends: and then, calling together the workers in gold and precious stones, he sat in the midst of them, and described to them the figure of the sign he had seen, bidding them represent it in gold and precious stones…
Now it was made in the following manner. A long spear, overlaid with gold, formed the figure of the cross by means of a transverse bar laid over it. On the top of the whole was fixed a wreath of gold and precious stones; and within this, the symbol of the Saviour’s name, two letters indicating the name of Christ by means of its initial characters, the letter P being intersected by X in its centre…
The emperor constantly made use of this sign of salvation as a safeguard against every adverse and hostile power, and commanded that others similar to it should be carried at the head of all his armies. (Eusebius. The Life of Constantine, Book I, Chapters 28,30,31).
This type of cross is known as a labarum:
The Labarum (☧) was a vexillum (military standard) that displayed the first two Greek letters of the word “Christ” (Greek: ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ, or Χριστός) — Chi (χ) and Rho (ρ).It was first used by the Roman emperor Constantine I…
Though modern representations of the chi-rho sign represent the two lines crossing at ninety degree angles, the early examples of the Chi-Rho cross at an angle that is more vividly representative of the chi formed by the solar ecliptic path and the celestial equator. This image is most familiar in Plato’s Timaeus…Of Plato’s image in Timaeus, Justin Martyr, the Christian apologist writing in the second century, found a prefiguration of the Cross (Labarum. Wikipedia, viewed 03/04/09).
So, the Chi-Rho existed from at least the time of Plato (a pagan philosopher), but was adopted by Constantine centuries after Christ died. The heretic Justin was probably one who originally encouraged its adoption, and he apparently got it from Plato.

http://www.cogwriter.com/news/church-history/constantines-cross-a-symbol-of-antichrist/


Missorium depicting Constantine's son Constantius II, accompanied by a guardsman with the Chi Rho monogram depicted on his shield.



Matthew 7:15
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

In other words, this man looked like a sheep, seemingly supported the sheep's way and led everybody to believe that he himself was in fact a sheep.

What did he do for the sheep?

Brought in pagan rituals, beliefs and practices and "Christianized" them so that every body could be a "sheep".

A wolf in sheep’s clothing,

Love,
Brother Jerry

Kinda brings to mind Exod. 20:3-5....
 
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son_flower

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Lord Jesus must of not gotten His memo...

According to Him, the man of sin is revealed before we leave with Him.

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

Matthew 24

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple

1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age, including a falling away

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the
end will come.


The Great Tribulation

15 “Therefore when youseethe ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 1718 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 1920 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

So far we have Lord Jesus telling us that a falling away from the faith has taken place to this point AND that the man of sin revealed

Then the Coming of the Son of Man

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Thus saith The Lord.

This is exactly what Apostle Paul told us about what would happen before "that day" comes in 2 Thes 2...

IN Order according to King Jesus and His Apostle, falling away, man of sin revealed and then the gathering of His elect.

We are to not listen to anyone who say's differently, period.

By and in His Love,
Brother Jerry

Well that was awesome Brother Jerry i think it should be on this page too.
 
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barney1956

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the scriptures,1thess.4:15-17 and 1cor.15:51-53 must be kept in context and the context of these scriptures paul is discussing the ressurrection.These scriptures are telling us at the start of the second presence(coming) of jesus those who have slept in death for a period of time before his coming are resurrected first,then those who are still living,at the moment of death are changed at the twinkling of an eye.These scriptures are not talking about living people standing on planet earth and suddently disappearing
 
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createdtoworship

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And you would be right. However, LovedofHim continues to bring this up on many different threads. As a result, no one is probably able to follow a single thread on the subject. It makes it confusing for those who are following one thread and none of the others. She refuses to acknowledge or deal with any of the evidence for how the word she is mistranslating (or more so defining improperly because of her pre-trib view) has actually been used, and therefore what it actually means.

She hasn't replied to accept one of the rebuttals.
 
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realtruth101

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I've seen you post this many times. Does it bother you from a spiritual standpoint that the "cross" Constantine saw was an Egyptian ankh??
More importantly did all the tribes of earth mourn.........may have been a sign in the sky BUT IT DOESNT FIT THE BILL,
 
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realtruth101

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the scriptures,1thess.4:15-17 and 1cor.15:51-53 must be kept in context and the context of these scriptures paul is discussing the ressurrection.These scriptures are telling us at the start of the second presence(coming) of jesus those who have slept in death for a period of time before his coming are resurrected first,then those who are still living,at the moment of death are changed at the twinkling of an eye.These scriptures are not talking about living people standing on planet earth and suddently disappearing
YOUR RIGHT! there is no mention of anyone disappearing, more than likely our mortal bodies will be changed in a twinkling of an eye, and we will be gathered up by angels to meet the Lord (in your case Jehovah) in the air.
 
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LovedofHim

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No, you have misunderstood and even with the evidence of the order of events before you in Matthew 24, you tell us this.

That is OK.

You say it is one way, Interpreter says it is another and IF we actually look at what Lord Jesus says, it is another way.

I SAY, IF we are not ready, we will not be going, no matter what way it is.

King Jesus tells us;10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

Then He goes on to say;15 “Therefore when youseethe ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)
Daniel 11:31 (ASV) "And forces shall stand on his part, and they shall profane the sanctuary, even the fortress, and shall take away the continual [burnt-offering], and they shall set up the abomination that maketh desolate." Daniel 12:11 (ASV) "And from the time that the continual [burnt-offering] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand and two hundred and ninety days."AND then He tells us;29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That is the order, no formula, just the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Love,
Brother Jerry

That is only the order of events IF the abomination of desolation is the antichrist but it is not. Jesus made it very clear that it is not and that the antichrist, false prophet do their false miracles after the tribulation is cut short.

There is ONE truth and the one you hold to is NOT it.

SEE:


15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
...
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Do you see that? The false christs, false prophets and false miracles arise AFTER the great tribulation is cut short and the great tribulation began with the desolation OF ISRAEL.

THis is confirmed by Daniel 11:36 which shows the antichrist here during the time of wrath.

This is confirmed by Revelation 6/7 and 9 which shows the church is in heaven before wrath, during which the antichrist is around.

This is confirmed by Revelation 12/13 which show the church in heaven when the devil is cast down, followed by the devil empowering the antichrist who then turns around and blasphemes the church who is dwelling in heaven.

 
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LovedofHim

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She hasn't replied to accept one of the rebuttals.

I'm sure you are aware that there are many translations of the Bible. There are some translations that are translations of translations. All of the modern translations are from ONE translation.

However, there are two translations that I am personally aware of, that translate the Greek word apostasia found in 2 Thess 2:3 correctly, as "departure". They are the Latin Vulgate and the Hebrew Names Version.

The other translations aren't too far off because "falling away", "apostasy" and "defection", among other translations all mean "departure". A "falling away" is a departure. An apostasy is a departure. A "forsaking" is a departure. A "defection" is a departure. But the point is that they have indeed been translated incorrectly because that translation of the word apostasia renders the understanding of the restrainer as an enigma.

If apostasia is translated correctly, as in the Vulgate and the Hebrew Names Version, you understand exactly who/what the restrainer is.


Paul confirms the meaning of apostasia as "departure" later in the same passage when he reiterated what he just said:

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God
2Th 2:5Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;
2 Thessalonians 2 (Blue Letter Bible: HNV - Hebrew Names Version)

Twice Paul said that there is a departure before the man of sin can be revealed. He told us in the first verse what "THE departure" refers to, and now you know who/what the restrainer is which is why Paul said, "NOW YOU KNOW what is restraining him" (the man of sin) "to the end that he may be revealed in his own season".

Because I trust in the Word of God, I know exactly who the restrainer is that must depart (be taken out of the way) before the man of sin can be revealed because Paul told us in verse 1 of that passage. Do you?
 
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yedida

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That is only the order of events IF the abomination of desolation is the antichrist but it is not. Jesus made it very clear that it is not and that the antichrist, false prophet do their false miracles after the tribulation is cut short.

There is ONE truth and the one you hold to is NOT it.

SEE:


15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
...
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Do you see that? The false christs, false prophets and false miracles arise AFTER the great tribulation is cut short and the great tribulation began with the desolation OF ISRAEL.

THis is confirmed by Daniel 11:36 which shows the antichrist here during the time of wrath.

This is confirmed by Revelation 6/7 and 9 which shows the church is in heaven before wrath, during which the antichrist is around.

This is confirmed by Revelation 12/13 which show the church in heaven when the devil is cast down, followed by the devil empowering the antichrist who then turns around and blasphemes the church who is dwelling in heaven.
Verses 22, 23, 24 go together. There is no break in them, they are speaking of the same time period and it's not AFTER the tribulation.
 
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LovedofHim

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Verses 22, 23, 24 go together. There is no break in them, they are speaking of the same time period and it's not AFTER the tribulation.

It says those days shall be shortened, speaking of the tribulation, and THEN shall arise false christs, false prophets, false miracles.


21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
 
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yedida

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It says those days shall be shortened, speaking of the tribulation, and THEN shall arise false christs, false prophets, false miracles.


21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

That just doesn't make common sense. And I'm sure God has better than "common sense" in His plans.
 
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createdtoworship

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I'm sure you are aware that there are many translations of the Bible. There are some translations that are translations of translations. All of the modern translations are from ONE translation.

However, there are two translations that I am personally aware of, that translate the Greek word apostasia found in 2 Thess 2:3 correctly, as "departure". They are the Latin Vulgate and the Hebrew Names Version.

The other translations aren't too far off because "falling away", "apostasy" and "defection", among other translations all mean "departure". A "falling away" is a departure. An apostasy is a departure. A "forsaking" is a departure. A "defection" is a departure. But the point is that they have indeed been translated incorrectly because that translation of the word apostasia renders the understanding of the restrainer as an enigma.

If apostasia is translated correctly, as in the Vulgate and the Hebrew Names Version, you understand exactly who/what the restrainer is.


Paul confirms the meaning of apostasia as "departure" later in the same passage when he reiterated what he just said:

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God
2Th 2:5Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;
2 Thessalonians 2 (Blue Letter Bible: HNV - Hebrew Names Version)

Twice Paul said that there is a departure before the man of sin can be revealed. He told us in the first verse what "THE departure" refers to, and now you know who/what the restrainer is which is why Paul said, "NOW YOU KNOW what is restraining him" (the man of sin) "to the end that he may be revealed in his own season".

Because I trust in the Word of God, I know exactly who the restrainer is that must depart (be taken out of the way) before the man of sin can be revealed because Paul told us in verse 1 of that passage. Do you?

2 Thess 2:3 doesn't teach a departure. Thats a bad translation in whatever version you use. The word is apostocea, which means apostacy.
 
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LovedofHim

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That just doesn't make common sense. And I'm sure God has better than "common sense" in His plans.

It makes PERFECT sense. You need to understand that the tribulation is NOT the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord. The tribulation, as defined in scripture, started with the desolation of Israel and will be cut short at the 5th seal, followed immediately by the 6th seal when the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord begins.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:



These are two separate, distinct, scripturally defined time periods.

The tribulation has been going on since Israel was desolated.

The time of wrath on the Day of the Lord begins after the tribulation is cut short. The antichrist is around during the time of wrath, not the tribulation.

For whatever reason, people aren't seeing that tribulation and the time of wrath are not the same thing.

Maybe this will make it more clear:

Daniel 11:36 “The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.


Daniel 8:19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power. 23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

The church is gathered prior to wrath:

Isaiah 26:

19 But your dead will live, LORD;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead. 20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.


1 Thess 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


Even Jesus said the antichrist arises after the tribulation is cut short:


21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The tribulation ends before wrath begins, according to Jesus:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
 
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LovedofHim

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2 Thess 2:3 doesn't teach a departure. Thats a bad translation in whatever version you use. The word is apostocea, which means apostacy.

Paul said "Now you know what is restraining him", the man of sin, because he tells us in that passage. I know because Paul tells us in verse 1. Do you know?

Online Greek Interlinear Bible

The Greek word is "apostasia". Apostasy is an English word that means departure from your political views, departure from your religion, departure even from your homeland that is based on the Greek word apostasia which means departure.

The only question is what is departing, being 'taken out of the way" before the man of sin can be revealed?
 
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createdtoworship

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Paul said "Now you know what is restraining him", the man of sin, because he tells us in that passage. I know because Paul tells us in verse 1. Do you know?

Online Greek Interlinear Bible

The Greek word is "apostasia". Apostasy is an English word that means departure from your political views, departure from your religion, departure even from your homeland that is based on the Greek word apostasia which means departure.

The only question is what is departing, being 'taken out of the way" before the man of sin can be revealed?

Wuest translation agrees with you,

Do not begin to allow anyone to lead you astray in any way, because that day shall not come except the aforementioned departure [of the Church to heaven] comes first and the man of the lawlessness is disclosed [in his true identity], the son of perdition, he who sets himself in opposition to and exalts himself above everyone and everything that is called a god or that is an object of worship, so that he seats himself in the inner sanctuary of God, proclaiming himself to be deity.
5–7 Do you not remember that while I was still with you I kept on telling you these things? And now you know with a positive assurance that which [namely, the departure of the Church, the saints being assembled together to the Lord] is preventing his being disclosed [as to his true identity] in his strategic, appointed time, for the mystery of the aforementioned lawlessness is now operating. Only He [the Holy Spirit] who is holding [the lawlessness] down, [will do so] until He goes out from the midst [of humanity].

Wuest, Kenneth S.: The New Testament : An Expanded Translation. Grand Rapids, MI : Eerdmans, 1997, c1961, S. 2 Th 2:1
 
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zeke37

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in scripture, we already have a fact...
that Michael fights Satan in Dan and Rev, the apocalyptical books.

but if you follow the entire chapter through, 2Thes2,
the answer is right there for us already...in what Paul just said...
but it is not the church that letteth....
or the Holy Spirit taken out of the way....

and that is very easy to prove...

if the ones of Rev12:17 have the testimony of Jesus Christ
then that makes them Christians.
the fact that they keep the commandments (including the first one)
means that they are not among the apostate Christians
who will take the mark of the beast and worship Satan, thinking he is Jesus returned



the gathering to Christ cannot occur until the son of Perdition does his thing....
so that is what is withholding the Coming of Christ and our gathering to Him


it just cannot happen until then...the son of Perdition must first do his thing

paul is teaching them, WHEN.....WHEN will Christ come back....had they missed it?

so 2Thes2 is written probably because of the confusion that some had with 1Thes4

now you know why Christ has not come yet....
and now you know what has to happen first...


even pretribbers believe that there are Christians here in the trib...
you guys mainly call them trib saints...converted Jews is the most common answer

but for them to be converts and have the testimony of Jesus Christ,
means that the Holy Spirit is still here in that time

even though i do not believe that they (of Rev12:17) are converts
because all the sealing is done before the 4 winds even begin to blow the trib (Rev7/Ez9)


John14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

1Cor12:1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

since the ones in Rev12:17 have the testimony of Christ, they call Him Lord...He is their Lord (and mine!)

 
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