There is no hell.

[GuardianShua]

*Where the worm never dies...This means eternal destruction.
*The fire is never quenched...This means the Judgment is never satisfide.
*Eternal torment...Incorrect translation: Eternal punishment.
*Wailing and gnashing of teeth...Prior to their DEATH.
*Father Abraham, let Lazarus give me a drop of water to put out the fire on my tongue. A story, possibly a corruption of text.

ALL choice words by Jesus.

And here is a link of youtubes of the visions of many mystic Saints of the Church if you care to peek. But it is a no debate area.

Advice on hell - avoiding it <~

I presume you know what a parable is.

 

[Gary51]

*Where the worm never dies...

From Hasting’s Dictionary comes the following definition of this word: “Gehenna: the word occurs twelve times in the New Testament. This term ‘gehenna’ represents ‘the Valley of Hinnom’ (Neh. 11:30, II Kings 23:10, etc.). The place was…a deep narrow gorge in the vicinity of Jerusalem, understood to be on the south side. It is repeatedly mentioned in the Old Testament (Jer. 19:6, etc.). It became an object of horror to the Jews, and is said to have been made the receptacle for bones, the bodies of beasts and criminals, refuse and all unclean things. The terrible associations of the place…the fires said to have been kept burning in it in order to consume the foul and corrupt objects that were thrown into it, made it [an]…unmistakable symbol of dire evil…absolute ruin. So it came to designate the place of future punishment.”

I have personally walked through this valley and examined its ledges, the design of its contour and its proximity to Jerusalem. It is a long, steep, trench-like ravine that is not particularly wide, but is quite deep. It is definitely a real place and looks exactly as the above description depicts it. The fires there burned continuously, much as we would see in certain city dumps of the past. Years ago, the city dump in my hometown of Lima, Ohio, constantly burned refuse. I saw this many times and have no difficulty understanding what Christ was referring to.

Some of the bodies that were cast into this valley never made it into the fires burning below. They would get hung up in the brush and trees on the ledges near the rim. In describing the wicked, when Christ stated that “their worms die not,” He was referring to the bodies of certain criminals that were thrown over the edge of the ravine but did not burn up because they got stuck on a ledge. They literally rotted and decomposed where they were. The maggots that entered their bodies completed the decomposition process without interruption from either the fire or anything else. These worms “died not,” so to speak, because they later developed into flies. This graphic picture is part of the reason that Gehenna was such a place of revulsion to all who were familiar with it!

 

[Gary51]

*Father Abraham, let Lazarus give me a drop of water to put out the fire on my tongue.

The Meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man

Surely some will ask, “What about Lazarus and the rich man? Didn’t they both die and go to heaven and hell, respectively? Isn’t this the lesson of the story?”
Sadly, the account of Lazarus and the rich man is almost universally misunderstood. Nearly everyone asserts that it is not a parable but rather a literal representation of the afterlife. This statement cannot withstand the scrutiny of facts. All one must do is start with the assumption that it is literal and then attempt to explain the elements in it as though they can only be taken literally. The difficulty in doing this will be made clear by this exercise.

For those who remain unconvinced that it is a parable, turn to Mark 4:33-34. These two verses describe the pattern Christ always used to teach His disciples: “And with many such parables spoke He the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spoke He not unto them: and when they were alone, He expounded all things to His disciples.” Christ continually used parables to teach. In Mark 4, prior to these verses, He had just spoken three parables. The New Testament contains dozens of others. A parable is a story designed to illustrate a point. Apparently, in one way or another, Christ always used parables, for “without a parable spake He not unto them.” Remember—accept the Bible at face value. The story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable and must be accepted as such.

The account of this parable is found in Luke 16:19-31. Take the time to read it—and get a complete picture of this story in your mind. Does it really say that when people die, they immediately go to either heaven or hell? We will see that it says no such thing!

We have only briefly touched on the subject of Christians (the meek) “inheriting the earth” as being the truth of the reward of the saved and how it supplants the common belief that heaven is their reward. This included a short examination of those who will awaken to immortality with God’s likeness at the time of the resurrection. Of course, we much more thoroughly discussed the subject of hell. Therefore, it will be considerably easier to clarify—to harmonize—the real fate of the rich man than that of Lazarus. The rich man suffered hell fire and Lazarus was saved. While this much is plain, what does it mean?

The account is best studied verse by verse with an open Bible. The explanation may periodically reference verses out of order so that we may sometimes examine a verse, phrase by phrase. Be prepared to take careful note of what the account does not say as well as what it does say. Also, look up each verse referenced (but not quoted) in the explanation.
Verses 19-21: These verses set the stage. They describe the parable’s two principal characters. Obviously, one is very wealthy and the other pitifully poor and miserable. One of the purposes of the parable is to demonstrate that Lazarus is a type of all Gentile Christians, who become Abraham’s children upon conversion. Read Galatians 3:7, 29.
Verse 22: Both men die. From this point forward, most people reading the account jump the track by making false assumptions. Most conclude that Lazarus is pictured as immediately arriving in heaven and the rich man as immediately arriving in an ever-burning hell. The account says neither of these things!

Notice! The verse says nothing whatsoever about either heaven or an ever-burning hell—period! Try to find these terms. They are not there. This verse states that Lazarus arrives at “Abraham’s bosom”—with no mention of when this occurs. The rich man is “buried!” That is all it says. Remember the rule: Take the verse for what it says—without adding to it or subtracting from it.

Lazarus’ presence at Abraham’s bosom depicts a very close, loving relationship. The apostle John is recorded as having reclined on Christ’s bosom as “the disciple whom Christ loved” (John 13:23). (Though John does not identify himself, probably because of modesty, it is clear whom the verse refers to.) So a special relationship is shown between Abraham and Lazarus, with no reference to either time or place. Describing a conversation during the time of Christ’s ministry, John 8:52-53 states (twice), “Abraham is dead.” At that point, Abraham had been dead for nearly 2,000 years. He is still dead! He is not waiting in heaven for people to come, immediately after death, and recline on his bosom. The meek inherit the earth when Christ returns to establish His kingdom! Abraham and Lazarus will be resurrected into the kingdom of God at Christ’s Second Coming. This is the meaning of the phrase.

Another rule of Bible study is found in II Peter 1:20. It cautions that “no…scripture is of any private interpretation.” Reviewing other essential scriptures makes this clear. Compare Daniel 7:18, 22, 27; Jude 14-15; and Revelation 5:10 with many other verses and it is obvious that the saints reign on the earth with Christ. Then notice that Matthew 25:31 shows that Christ returns with “the holy angels.” Recall that Lazarus was “carried by the angels” to Abraham’s bosom. Finally, compare this with Matthew 24:31 for further proof of the angels’ role in this way. (Read our free booklets Do the Saved Go to Heaven? and Just What Is Salvation?)
Verse 23: The rich man is obviously in hell. However, the word translated “hell” here is hades. This makes sense because hades is the grave and we read that the rich man had been “buried.” This means that he was put into a grave. There is no mystery about what happened to him. Therefore, the phrase “he lift up his eyes” also makes sense as no more than a reference to the resurrection described in John 5:29. We have previously examined this verse. This phrase is consistent with a resurrection, when people awaken—or “lift up their eyes.”

The rich man was also in “torments.” What does this mean? The Greek word translated “torments” is basanos. It is found in only one other place in the Bible. Its meaning is fascinating. It means “a touchstone, having to do with touching pure gold, against the particular stone, to test its purity and validity…to be under a severe trial, torture.” We will see that the rich man was, in fact, mentally tortured and in a severe trial. He was facing the lake of fire! Try to imagine a more serious trial than this. He had missed out on salvation and could clearly see Abraham and Lazarus in the kingdom of God.

Verse 24: This verse is usually cited to justify the classic version of hell where people burn but never completely burn up. Read it carefully. The rich man requests that Lazarus “cool his tongue” with a tiny amount of water—no more than a few drops on the tip of a finger. If you were roasting in a condition involving walls of fire all around you, would you merely ask for a few drops of water—and only for the purpose of cooling your tongue? Would you not rather ask for a whole pool of water to be dumped on you? I would! The rich man is again described as “tormented.” Understanding this word (“tormented”) is the key to explaining the rich man’s condition. It is not basanos.

The word translated “tormented” is odunao. It means, “to grieve, sorrow, torment, duress, distress, strain.” No reference to roasting or burning is included in its definition. The rich man is described as being in mental torment because he is facing the lake of fire. Fear has seized him and given him the condition commonly referred to as “cotton mouth.” Great fear and distress often dry up the mouth. The rich man was hoping for Lazarus to moisten his tongue. We might also ask the following question of all those who believe in the immortality of the soul and who wish to take this parable literally. Do immortal souls have tongues? The reader may ponder this.

The phrase “in this flame” is mistranslated. The actual meaning in the Greek is “by reason of this flame.” This critical mistranslation entirely changes the scenario. The rich man was not yet “in the flame” but was tormented by fear because he saw it coming. He had good “reason” to be in mental anguish and torment.

Verse 25: This verse reinforces the element of the passing of time to properly understand the parable. Abraham answers the rich man by saying, “Son, remember that in your lifetime…” What would be the point of using the word “remember” if the rich man’s lifetime had ended just a few seconds prior to this conversation? Typically, people use the word remember when they are speaking of events that happened long ago! The passing of much time, since the rich man’s death, is confirmed at the end of the verse, when Abraham says, “but now he [Lazarus] is comforted.” It is apparent that the two words remember and now are contrasted to one another because significant time has passed. Both men had lain in the grave for a great while, until the time of their respective resurrections from the dead.

Verse 26: This verse describes what is called “a great gulf fixed” between where Abraham and Lazarus were and where the rich man was. Some believe this is a picture of a great physical distance between the locations of heaven and hell. It certainly does not say that. What exactly is this “great gulf fixed?”

Notice: “Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither His ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities [lawlessness] have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear” (Isa. 59:1-2). Also Jeremiah 5:25: “Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withheld good things from you.” Now read Hebrews 10:26: “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins.”

These verses show that sin, in all of its forms, cuts people off from God! God cannot bless, protect, heal, guide or save people who do not repent of and forsake sin. God is holy—He does not have contact with sin. Because of His perfect righteousness, He cannot! The rich man’s sins had cut him off from God. This is why Abraham said that no one on either side of this “gulf” was able to cross to the other side. It was impossible, literally!

Verses 27-28: These two verses can be taken together because they both describe the rich man’s request to send Lazarus to warn his brothers. This would be a natural request for any man concerned about his family. The rich man would have been unaware of how much time had passed since his death. He would have had no way of knowing unless he asked—and the account does not record that he did.

Verse 29: Abraham’s answer to this question is extremely important because it says what everyone alive today should do in their own lives. He warns that the five brothers (and, by inclusion, everyone else who has ever lived) should listen to “Moses and the prophets.” Abraham is emphatic—“let them hear them.” This is Christ’s instruction to an entire world that ignores the Bible, in general, and the words of Moses and the Old Testament prophets, in particular! This warning is here for you, the reader, to consider!

Verses 30-31: These two verses are also tremendously instructive, but in a slightly different way. They represent an amazing insight into the careless neglect and general disregard of God’s word that is so typical of human nature. When taken together, these verses demonstrate that people who are determined not to obey God—who are determined not to heed Moses and the prophets—won’t even be moved to action by a well-known person resurrected “from the dead”! What a stunning indictment of human stubbornness in the face of the plain truths of God. These verses contain a warning. Will you hear them?

The rich man had been given his opportunity in his lifetime. He realized that he had missed out on salvation. He also recognized that Lazarus had been resurrected “from the dead.” The scripture does not say that he was resurrected “from life”—it says that he had been resurrected “from the dead.” The entire account of this parable was used by Christ to teach the resurrection of the dead! This account was never intended to teach the idea of immediately going to heaven or hell upon death.

Many Bible scholars have long understood that this parable was never intended to address the state of the dead. The New Bible Dictionary states, “Probably the story of Dives and Lazarus (Lk. xvi), like the story of the unjust steward (Lk. xvi.1-9), is a parable which made use of certain Jewish thinking and is not intended to teach anything about the state of the dead”

 

[Gary51]

*Eternal torment...

Eternal torment is reserved for Satan and the demons, because they were created with eternal life and cannot die.

Man on the other hand was created mortal and can die.

 

[Gary51]

ALL choice words by Jesus.

John 5:28-29 (New International Version)


28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.


John 11:11-14 (New International Version)



11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."
12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,

John 3:13 (New International Version)

13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a]

 

[WarriorAngel]

I presume you know what a parable is.

I presume you do as well.

Um, like using the term Gehenna for hell. That's a parable. The folks knew what Jesus meant. For Jesus always always always spoke about the next life - and not about the conditions of this life.

The only thing Jesus ever mentioned about this was
IF you do A then this is what B will be like.

Like for instance when He likened the Kingdom of Heaven to the King Who forgave the debtor but the debtor went out and refused to forgive hhis debtor and then beat him up.
So the King had the debtor of His sent to jail with the torturers until he would pay the last farthing -

Care to explain that?

That's called paying off the debt - thru tortures.
Not hell - but purgation.

Hell is compared to Gehenna because the ppl had a disgusting place to compare to hell.

BUT WHAT you do not realise is that the Jews already prayed for their dead. They already had an 11 month prayer to pray for the souls of the dead and IF you were to read the LIFE of Maccabee [whether you think it inspired or not] shows that the king - Joseph Maccabee prescribed the tradition already set up in Jewish custom to pay out a price on behalf of the dead and he did so.

What else you do not realise is that that the OT they knew of hell as well.
David spoke of sleeping until that day..[of the Messiah]
Which had come - Jesus Christ.

AND those Saints - ghosts rose from the graves upon His death...
Their souls went to Heaven.

BUT when Jesus died, He went to Hades - the waiting place the Jews referred to - via prayer for their dead.

Yea- i know about parables and the history of why Jesus said what He said the way He said it.

Ephesians 4
9 Now that he ascended, what is it, but because he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.

Matthew 25
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Can you explain that one??

Eternal torment is reserved for Satan and the demons, because they were created with eternal life and cannot die.

Man on the other hand was created mortal and can die.

Really just for them???

Matthew 25
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[visionary]

Eternal torment is reserved for Satan and the demons, because they were created with eternal life and cannot die.

Man on the other hand was created mortal and can die.

There is an end for Satan.. When it is all said and done... Satan will be nothing but ashes....

Ezekiel 28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Malachi 4:3
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

2 Peter 2:6
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

 

[WarriorAngel]

There is an end for Satan.. When it is all said and done... Satan will be nothing but ashes....

Ezekiel 28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Malachi 4:3
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

2 Peter 2:6
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2 Peter 2:
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their riotousnesses, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you. Whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their perdition slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment: 5 And spared not the original world, but preserved Noe, the eighth person, the preacher of justice, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.

6 And reducing the cities of the Sodomites, and of the Gomorrhites, into ashes, condemned them to be overthrown, making them an example to those that should after act wickedly. 7 And delivered just Lot, oppressed by the injustice and lewd conversation of the wicked. 8 For in sight and hearing he was just: dwelling among them, who from day to day vexed the just soul with unjust works. 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly from temptation, but to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be tormented. 10 And especially them who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government, audacious, self willed, they fear not to bring in sects, blaspheming. 11 Whereas angels who are greater in strength and power, bring not against themselves a railing judgment. 12 But these men, as irrational beasts, naturally tending to the snare and to destruction, blaspheming those things which they know not, shall perish in their corruption, 13 Receiving the reward of their injustice, counting for a pleasure the delights of a day: stains and spots, sporting themselves to excess, rioting in their feasts with you: 14 Having eyes full of adultery and of sin that ceaseth not: alluring unstable souls, having their heart exercised with covetousness, children of malediction: 15 Leaving the right way they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam of Bosor, who loved the wages of iniquity,

16 But had a check of his madness, the dumb beast used to the yoke, which speaking with man's voice, forbade the folly of the prophet. 17 These are fountains without water, and clouds tossed with whirlwinds, to whom the mist of darkness is reserved. 18 For, speaking proud words of vanity, they allure by the desires of fleshly riotousness, those who for a little while escape, such as converse in error: 19 Promising them liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave. 20 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. 22 For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire.

Being destroyed would be the easy way out.

The reward of wickedness is eternal.

But they will be like ashes to the just - being unseen.

For we know the ungodly of the cities were made to ashes, but their souls were not destroyed.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Does anyone else here notice the difference in wording of "Ages Ages" in Reve 14:11 and Reve 20:11?

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the Tormenting of Them into Ages of Ages is ascending. And not they are having rest of Day and of Night the Ones worshipping the Wild, ....................

eiV <1519> {INTO} aiwnaV <165> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 20:10 And the Devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the Lake of the Fire and of Sulfur, the where also the Beast and the False-prophet, and they shall be being Tormented Day and Night into the Ages of the Ages.

touV <3588> aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

 

[visionary]

The reserved in darkness and the end result of ashes after the eternal fire has eaten them up are two different things. The reserved in darkness is before judgment... that is where they are kept.. reserved until the day when they are cast into the lake of fire.. which will burn them up and the last one to be consumed will be Satan.

Consumed... by the fire

Ezekiel 22:31
Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Job 4:9
By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.

Job 6:17
What time they wax warm, they vanish: when it is hot, they are consumed out of their place.

Psalm 104:35
Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

Isaiah 1:28
And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Isaiah 66:17
They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 6:29
The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.

Jeremiah 10:25
Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not, and upon the families that call not on thy name: for they have eaten up Jacob, and devoured him, and consumed him, and have made his habitation desolate.

Ezekiel 19:12
But she was plucked up in fury, she was cast down to the ground, and the east wind dried up her fruit: her strong rods were broken and withered; the fire consumed them.

Ezekiel 22:31
Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 43:8
In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.

 

[visionary]

Does anyone else here notice the difference in wording of "Ages Ages" in Reve 14:11 and Reve 20:11?

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the Tormenting of Them into Ages of Ages is ascending. And not they are having rest of Day and of Night the Ones worshipping the Wild, ....................

eiV <1519> {INTO} aiwnaV <165> aiwnwn <165>

Reve 20:10 And the Devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the Lake of the Fire and of Sulfur, the where also the Beast and the False-prophet, and they shall be being Tormented Day and Night into the Ages of the Ages.

touV <3588> aiwnaV <165> twn <3588> aiwnwn <165>

You surely have done the study on "ages" and know that it is a cycle of earth that last approximately 2000 years.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You surely have done the study on "ages" and know that it is a cycle of earth that last approximately 2000 years.

Don't really know about that but then I do not know how the Orthodox Jews view "Age" in the NT/NC.
Ya ever notice the word "finish of age" in Matt 24:3?

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, "Tell us when? shall these be and what? the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the AGE"?

Textus Rec.) Matthew 24:3 kaqhmenou de autou epi tou orouV twn elaiwn proshlqon autw oi maqhtai kat idian legonteV eipe hmin pote tauta estai kai ti to shmeion thV shV parousiaV kai thV sunteleiaV tou aiwnoV

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7276015&page=2
Olivet Discourse and Revelation Same Event?

 

[visionary]

Genesis 1:14-19
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs

I would recommend a background understanding of the Hebrew Mazzeroth. Chuck Missler has a great mp3 download for $7.95 called Signs in the Heavens where he goes over some of these ancient constellations that spell out the plan of salvation in the stars..

http://store.khouse.org/store/catalog/DL003.html

This is an imaginary line running from the horizon due north of an observer through the heavens to the horizon due south of an observer. The meridian at the vernal equinox is called the zero meridian, and it runs through the constellation of Pisces in which the sun is situated. At the time of the birth of Yeshua the nearest visible star in Pisces to the zero meridian would have been that designated alpha (&#945. However, due to the slow movement of the sun through the Mazzorath or Zodiac [at least the symbols], mentioned above (the precession of the equinoxes), the nearest star in Pisces to the zero meridian, in fact the nearest of all the 1,800 brightest stars as listed in a star catalogue, is now that designated omega (&#969. It is calculated that it will be exactly on the zero meridian early in 2012.

It is surely significant that, in the constellation with a name that is particularly identified with the Yeshua, a star designated alpha by astronomers was closest to the zero meridian at the time of His birth, and a star designated omega is closest to the zero meridian at the time when we expect him to return.

The Hebrew Mazzeroth

Job 38:31
Can you bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Can you bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or can you guide Arcturus with his sons? Do you know the ordinances of heaven? can you set the dominion thereof in the earth?

Psalm 19: 1-6
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows his handiwork. Day unto day utters speech and night unto night reveals knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard. Their line has gone out through all the earth and their words to the end of the world. In them he has made a tabernacle for the sun, which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoices like a strong man to run it's race. It's rising is from one end of heaven, and it's circuit to the other end; and there is nothing hidden from it's heat.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4773590301316220374&q=THUNDERBOLTS+OF+THE+GODS&hl=en

 

[WarriorAngel]

Being destroyed into nothing is not punishment, it is preferable.

Luke 10
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgement, than for you.

How can it be more tolerable - if they are to be destroyed??

2 Peter 3
7 But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of the ungodly men.

2 Thessalonians 1
9 Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

Hebrews 6
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Matthew 8
29 And behold they cried out, saying: What have we to do with thee, Jesus Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Job 10
22 A land of misery and darkness, where the shadow of death, and no order, but everlasting horror dwelleth.

Psalms 77
66 And he smote his enemies on the hinder parts: he put them to an everlasting reproach.

Matthew 25
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Mark 3
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin.


Mark 9
44 And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter lame into life everlasting, than having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire:

Luke 16
9 And I say to you: Make unto you friends of the mammon of iniquity; that when you shall fail, they may receive you into everlasting dwellings.


Jude 1
6 And the angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he hath reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day.

Matthew 18
8 And if thy hand, or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.

Daniel 12
2 And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always.

Matthew 3 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor and gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.


Luke 3
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.



Words that mean hell:

Perish,
torment
eternal fire
weeping gnashing teeth
Worm never dies
Second death
Die
Unquenchable fire
Torment
Abyss
chains
punishment
Judgement
condemned
darkness
outside the wailing and moaning
perish

etc etc etc

These things are not said to end - but because they will not be in everlasting life and will be in everlasting fire - they are dead and gone to the just.
And they are dead and gone to God.

They will be vaulted up in the eternal chains reserved for the demons who are out spreading evil and will be locked with the souls in eternal fire for all of eternity.

Hell exists and it does not end.

Just because the references appear as tho an end - those references simply mean they are gone - dead - done and finito to God.

For God will no longer know of them after the Judgement when He shall take the demons and satan and lock them in the eternal hell.

None will get off easy by being destroyed.

For what is that to be fearful of if it ends anyway?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=68&ch=3&l=7&f=s#x

2 Peter 3
7 But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of the ungodly men

I think I would rather drown than being toasted by fire Pretty convenient though of YHWH not to submerge the whole world in water and not doing it again.

Matthew 24:38 For as they were in the days, those, to-the before the flood eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until which day entered Noah into the Ark,

Reve 15:8 And is being-filled-full/repleted the Sanctuary of smoke out of the Glory of the God, and out of the power of Him. And no one was able to be entering into the Sanctuary until should be being finished the seven blows/stripes of the seven messengers. [Matt 12:29]

 

[visionary]

While the punishment has everlasting effects.. there comes an end to the punishment and the punished... Eternal torment is not biblical... misuse of the term and scriptural understanding.

There are numerous scriptures that seem to clearly indicate that there is no eternal life for the wicked (not even in Hell)... sorry... none... no eternal life for the wicked..

Matt 19:16&#8212;"And someone came to Him and said, 'Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?'"

This man spoke of obtaining eternal life. It wasn't as if he already possessed it. Preachers today would probably say to him "Son, you already have eternal life; it's just a matter of where you will spend it." But Jesus never said that.

Matt 19:29-30&#8212;"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."

They will inherit eternal life. This indicates that not everyone has it already.

Matt 25:46&#8212;"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

If Yeshua meant for the punishment to last eternally, he probably wouldn't have contrasted it with the phrase "eternal life" which is clearly meant only for believers. If Yeshua had intended what most churches believe he did with this verse, he should have said, "Both the righteous and the unrighteous will go away to eternal life, but the unrighteous will spend it being tortured while the righteous spend theirs in paradise." But what He really said was that only the saved will have eternal life.

John 3:16&#8212;"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

This is the most quoted verse in the Bible and also one of the clearest accounts on the annihilation of the wicked. "...Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

John didn't write that "...whoever believes in Him shall not have everlasting life in torment, but rather have everlasting life in Heaven."

The way most churches interpret this, they mentally replace the very clear word "perish" with something that means nearly the opposite: "never perish."

John 3:36&#8212;"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 4:14&#8212;"...but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

John 5:24&#8212;"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

The same can be said of words like "immortality." This word appears five times in the Bible, and in each one, it is said only of God or of the righteous.

Rom 2:6-7&#8212;"[God] will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life..."

1 Cor 15:53&#8212;"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality."

1 Tim 6:15-16&#8212;"He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality..."

Ok.. here is one of those hard verses....

"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name" (Rev. 14:11).

This verse creates some questions in my mind. At first glance, it seems to say exactly what most Christians believe: that the wicked will be tormented without end in Hell.

"smoke of their torment" implies complete and total destruction like smoke from the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah.

"they have no rest day or night" is indicative of the ceaseless nature that their punishment will take on for the time that they are punished (not necessarily forever). In other words, while they are being punished, they will not get intervals of rest like we all enjoy here on earth (even when you work all day, you still get to sleep at night). Instead, they will have no rest during this time, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it will last forever.

One of the clearest illustrations of annihilation in Hell in the entire Bible.

Rev. 20:14-15 "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Death is the opposite of life... which means there is no life in death.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ok.. here is one of those hard verses....

"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name" (Rev. 14:11).

This verse creates some questions in my mind. At first glance, it seems to say exactly what most Christians believe: that the wicked will be tormented without end in Hell.

I would say if one understands the covenantle parable of the rich-man/lazarus, one will better understand the "lake of fire" in Revelation.
This Messianic had a fairly good view on it:

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

Luke 16:23 And in the hades lifting up his eyes existing in torments, he is seeing the Abraham from afar and Lazarus in the bosoms of him.

Textus Rec.) Luke 16:23 kai en tw adh eparaV touV ofqalmouV autou uparcwn en basanoiV ora ton abraam apo makroqen kai lazaron en toiV kolpoiV autou

 

[_visionary_]

Universalism is about as Biblical as Scientology.

 

[WarriorAngel]

While the punishment has everlasting effects.. there comes an end to the punishment and the punished... Eternal torment is not biblical... misuse of the term and scriptural understanding.

Death is the opposite of life... which means there is no life in death.

No life is no God ~ for God is life. Those without - outside of His Presense have no life.

Again - please compare the use of the word everlasting to the same of everlasting life.

If we go by your opinion that everlasting doesn't last - then we must concede that everlasting life does not last either.

For the Lord said:

Matthew 25
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

 

[Mikecpking]

Being destroyed into nothing is not punishment, it is preferable.

Luke 10
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgement, than for you.

How can it be more tolerable - if they are to be destroyed??

2 Peter 3
7 But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of the ungodly men.

2 Thessalonians 1
9 Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

Hebrews 6
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Matthew 8
29 And behold they cried out, saying: What have we to do with thee, Jesus Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Job 10
22 A land of misery and darkness, where the shadow of death, and no order, but everlasting horror dwelleth.

Psalms 77
66 And he smote his enemies on the hinder parts: he put them to an everlasting reproach.

Matthew 25
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Mark 3
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin.


Mark 9
44 And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter lame into life everlasting, than having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire:

Luke 16
9 And I say to you: Make unto you friends of the mammon of iniquity; that when you shall fail, they may receive you into everlasting dwellings.


Jude 1
6 And the angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he hath reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day.

Matthew 18
8 And if thy hand, or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.

Daniel 12
2 And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always.

Matthew 3 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor and gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.


Luke 3
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.



Words that mean hell:

Perish,
torment
eternal fire
weeping gnashing teeth
Worm never dies
Second death
Die
Unquenchable fire
Torment
Abyss
chains
punishment
Judgement
condemned
darkness
outside the wailing and moaning
perish

etc etc etc

These things are not said to end - but because they will not be in everlasting life and will be in everlasting fire - they are dead and gone to the just.
And they are dead and gone to God.

They will be vaulted up in the eternal chains reserved for the demons who are out spreading evil and will be locked with the souls in eternal fire for all of eternity.

Hell exists and it does not end.

Just because the references appear as tho an end - those references simply mean they are gone - dead - done and finito to God.

For God will no longer know of them after the Judgement when He shall take the demons and satan and lock them in the eternal hell.

None will get off easy by being destroyed.

For what is that to be fearful of if it ends anyway?

Hi Warriorangel,
How come hell was thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20? Obviously, it is NOT eternal?

Where do you get the notion that souls exist as a disembodied state? The bible is clear that 'soul' is bound up in the body and not the immaterial part of a person. If a person is immortal, why does it say in Timothy that God alone is immortal?