There is no hell.

[visionary]

Look .. if I cut off your arm and give it to the fishes to eat... that has a lasting effect... no arm for you. In the same way.. punish effect is everlasting.. but the punishment itself only last until you are ashes.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Everlasting is everlasting - because He said everlasting punishment or everlasting life.

So according to that logic, everlasting life only lasts until a point and then it ends.

Because Christ didnt say everlasting to a point - He said everlasting punishment or life everlasting.

AS I said the references to hell as in death - end - finito - is because they no longer exist to God.

They will be sealed with the demons and satan forever more.

AND I showed you the scriptures where the demons said to Jesus - do NOT torment us before our time.

IE - they will be tormented in the future for everlasting in the abyss reserved for them - but until that time - they are out possessing people and causing evil and problems.

That's the entirety of those scriptures and what they mean. Not to be taken literally as tho ashes... but as like ashes to God because their souls will forever be tormented with the demons and satan...

I gave you the scriptures to show how this works...

In what I showed you it comes to the understanding that the next life the wicked ill be in unquencahble fire... everlasting torment. IE - it no more ends than life in Heaven ends.

And how can the effects be everlasting if no one is there to feel it?

If you are not with God - you are dead. Regardless if you exist or not - you are not in life which is near God.


Also dont forget when He said it will be more tolerable for the others than for 'you'...

How does one find something more intolerable if no one is in existence anymore?

There are levels of hell and the deepest recesses closest to the middle which will be the spot of satan - is the worst spot...than those closer to the gates of hell.

 

[visionary]

So how is hell thrown in the lake of fire?
How are we to walk on the ashes of the wicked?
How is the second death thrown into the lake of fire?

Next question

why is hell and death thrown into the lake of fire?

Eternal death means no ressurrection to life forever... that is the eternal part. .. the ever lasting part... that is the second death.

When you talk about the demons not wanting to be tortured before their time.. even they knew that there was a time for torture and it isn't now but will come to pass in the future.

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

 

[Der Alte]

So how is hell thrown in the lake of fire?
How are we to walk on the ashes of the wicked?
How is the second death thrown into the lake of fire?

Next question

why is hell and death thrown into the lake of fire?[ . . . ]

Death is the punctiliar cessation of life. It has no physical properties and cannot be thrown anywhere. But the angel of death and the demon of hell are sentient beings, of some kind, and can, and will, be thrown into the LOF and their power to kill will be ended.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

 

[Der Alte]

Look .. if I cut off your arm and give it to the fishes to eat... that has a lasting effect... no arm for you. In the same way.. punish effect is everlasting.. but the punishment itself only last until you are ashes.

But if those in the flames cease to exist then the smoke associated with their burning will also cease to exist but, see,

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

10,000 times 10,000 eons from now the unchanging word of God will still say the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever. The smoke of their torment is only theirs as long as they exist somehow or other. The verse further says, " and they have no rest day nor night" As long as you can conceive into the future, "they have no rest day nor night."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

But if those in the flames cease to exist then the smoke associated with their burning will also cease to exist but, see,

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
​

10,000 times 10,000 eons from now the unchanging word of God will still say the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever. The smoke of their torment is only theirs as long as they exist somehow or other. The verse further says, " and they have no rest day nor night" As long as you can conceive into the future, "they have no rest day nor night."

Do ya think they might be the ones in that Great City burning into the ages of ages

Reve 19:3 and a second time They have declared "Hallelujah and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the Tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having rest Day and Night those worshipping the Wild-Beast,........

 

[visionary]

The doctrine of hell-fire is largely based on the assumption of an immortal soul (being eternally alive in the death condition)..God tells us the penalty for sin: “the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”

History records that every device of tyranny, persecution and torture in the name of God and religion, has flourished to frighten the uneducated church goer into believing. Harold O.J. Brown, a theology professor at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, declares the effectiveness of the fear of hell-fire compared to that of simple non-existence at death: “...annihilationism [non-existence as a penalty for sin] takes some of the punch out of Gospel preaching. To tell the unrepentant that the worst fate that could befall them is extinction makes continuing in sin seem less risky.”

Is God honored by such fear tactics? “Their fear toward me is taught by the precepts of men....” (Isa. 29:13) His desire is a willing and obedient heart motivated purely by love for Him and His righteousness—not motivated by fear. Pagans built sacrificial altars to their false god, Baal, where they burned their children alive in the fire. But God Himself declares that such a concept “never did enter My mind.” (Jer.19:5) The idea of torture is abhorrent to God. He forbade it in the Law of the Jews. The Apostle John states that “God is love... perfect love casts out fear because fear hath torment.” 1 John 4:16-18

 

[visionary]

Yes, God’s compassions are far more generous than man has accepted through their false interpretation of Scripture. His merciful plan has been the golden thread woven throughout His Word. He has provided that the sin of man will “...be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord... Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.... him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:19-23

 

[visionary]

The word "forever" ... In Scripture the word "forever" does not always mean endless or eternal duration. For example, in Exodus 21:6 (KJV Version) we read that certain people were to be servants "forever". Obviously this cannot mean eternity. The word "forever" or "everlasting", in the original Hebrew and Greek languages of Scripture, simply means the entire length or duration of something. If that something is immortal then the word "forever" must mean eternity. But, if that something is mortal or temporary in nature then, obviously, the word "forever" cannot mean eternity.

 

[visionary]

What about Revelation 14:9-11 where it says: "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night"? Doesn't this passage in Scripture prove eternal torment? No.

We also read in Isaiah 34:10 that while Edom was burning day and night the smoke of the city would ascend up forever and ever. Does that mean that Edom would never stop burning? Of course, not! The language simply signifies that the burning of Edom will ultimately end in permanent (or irrevocable and eternal) destruction. Look at the city of Edom today... is the smoke ascending forever? NO

 

[WarriorAngel]

So how is hell thrown in the lake of fire?
How are we to walk on the ashes of the wicked?
How is the second death thrown into the lake of fire?

Next question

why is hell and death thrown into the lake of fire?

Eternal death means no ressurrection to life forever... that is the eternal part. .. the ever lasting part... that is the second death.

When you talk about the demons not wanting to be tortured before their time.. even they knew that there was a time for torture and it isn't now but will come to pass in the future.

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

1-Hell is the Lake of fire.
2-They will be below the righteous suffering and they will be as ashes. Ground nothingness...[but still exist - as you see ashes do not become nothingness - but yet exist] only that those in Heaven will no longer know them.
3-You have a mortal life death and the second death is the death of the soul - thrown into the fire. Death is not having God.

And as i hilighted in red - unto [or due to] the great judgement day - the chains [sealed] will be everlasting [forever].

Everlasting has no end btw....it lasts and lasts for - ever.

But if those in the flames cease to exist then the smoke associated with their burning will also cease to exist but, see,

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
​

10,000 times 10,000 eons from now the unchanging word of God will still say the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever. The smoke of their torment is only theirs as long as they exist somehow or other. The verse further says, " and they have no rest day nor night" As long as you can conceive into the future, "they have no rest day nor night."

God is unchanging...always and forever unchanging.

And thanks for the quote i highlighted in red they shall have no rest day or night and the torment ascends for ever and ever...and of course for ~ ever!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And thanks for the quote i highlighted in red they shall have no rest day or night and the torment ascends for ever and ever...and of course for ~ ever!

So does the smoke of this "City" which I am of the view it is symbolizing that "LOF"

Reve 19:3 and a second time They have declared "Hallelujah and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"

 

[visionary]

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death

so therefore.. hell can not be the lake of fire.

 

[visionary]

The smoke of their torment arising "forever and ever" in the passage does not mean that the torment of the wicked will never end. The language simply signifies that the torment of the wicked will lead to their permanent (or irrevocable and eternal) destruction. During the process of their destruction the wicked will be tormented but that process will ultimately end in their eternal annihilation, which is what is signified by the use of the figure of smoke arising "forever and ever". This is the only interpretation of Revelation 14:9-11 that would be consistent with how the rest of Scripture uses such language and with what the rest of the Scriptures teach concerning the final and ultimate end of the wicked.

Scripture says in Jude 7 that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by eternal fire. These cities are no longer still burning. How, then, can the fire be called "eternal"? Because the result that the fire produced is eternal - these cities have never existed again, nor will they (Please see my larger article, link provided below, for in-depth analysis of this particular point and refutation of arguments to the contrary).

 

[visionary]

The Bible says Jesus Christ "hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10).. The opposite of eternal life (or immortality) is eternal death (the eternal and literal death of soul and body) - not eternally living in torment and suffering! "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23). "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting (eternal) life" (John 3:16). The issue is not what we think eternal punishment ought to be. The issues are God's character, God's definition of ultimate justice, and God's eternal purposes. It's absolutely amazing how Fundamentalist Christianity doesn't wish to be literal when it comes to the eternal death and destruction of soul and body!

 

[visionary]

I highly recommend to all readers Dr. Edward Fudge's thoroughly biblical and scholarly work The Fire That Consumes (http://www.iuniverse.com /bookstore/book_detail.asp? &isbn=0-595-14342-3). The book is foreworded by the great evangelical scholar F.F. Bruce. This book should be required reading in every seminary and Bible school.

 

[visionary]

Hell (as a place of unending torment) is a teaching, like purgatory, that has no basis in scripture. It is a tradition that has become orthodox, but scripture as in most cases runs contrary to tradition. Consider John 3:16 ... "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that as many as believe in Him may not PERISH but have Eternal Life.

 

[visionary]

n the New Testament, the Greek word hades corresponds exactly to the Hebrew word sheol. As proof see the quotations of the apostles from the Old Testament in which they render it hades. For instance, Acts 2:27, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hades," is a quotation from Psalms 16:10, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol." And in 1 Cor. 15:54,55, "Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave [hades], where is thy victory?" is an allusion to Isaiah 25:8, "He will swallow up death in victory," and to Hosea 13:14, "O death, I will be thy plagues; O sheol, I will be thy destruction."

 

[WarriorAngel]

The smoke of their torment arising "forever and ever" in the passage does not mean that the torment of the wicked will never end. The language simply signifies that the torment of the wicked will lead to their permanent (or irrevocable and eternal) destruction. During the process of their destruction the wicked will be tormented but that process will ultimately end in their eternal annihilation, which is what is signified by the use of the figure of smoke arising "forever and ever". This is the only interpretation of Revelation 14:9-11 that would be consistent with how the rest of Scripture uses such language and with what the rest of the Scriptures teach concerning the final and ultimate end of the wicked.

Scripture says in Jude 7 that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by eternal fire. These cities are no longer still burning. How, then, can the fire be called "eternal"? Because the result that the fire produced is eternal - these cities have never existed again, nor will they (Please see my larger article, link provided below, for in-depth analysis of this particular point and refutation of arguments to the contrary).

How is it you suggest for ever and ever is not forever?

They will get NO REST DAY OR NIGHT...
Does that sound like they no longer exist?

Their fire is eternal, the fire of perdition.
It has nothing to do with the mortal existence.

You have to understand all the words for hell...which i listed and there are so many more.

Second death - like the first means the souls live on - but the actual death is absense of the LIFE AND LOVE FORCE which is God.

The Bible says Jesus Christ "hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10).. The opposite of eternal life (or immortality) is eternal death (the eternal and literal death of soul and body) - not eternally living in torment and suffering! "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23). "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting (eternal) life" (John 3:16). The issue is not what we think eternal punishment ought to be. The issues are God's character, God's definition of ultimate justice, and God's eternal purposes. It's absolutely amazing how Fundamentalist Christianity doesn't wish to be literal when it comes to the eternal death and destruction of soul and body!

Jesus abolished death doesn't mean He destroyed punishment.

He made it so death was no longer a state of permanent removal from God - which is what I have been trying to tell you.

Being out of the presense of God is death.
Eternal death is punishment of never being capable to set eyes upon Him or be near Him.

That's how death entered into the world...by our seperation.

Scriptures are so much more than the physical world around us - it is usually about the after life.

Maybe i should just go get an ecf to C&P.

 

[visionary]

what about the undying worms and the unquenchable fire? There was a literal garbage dump out side the city of Jerusalem known as Gehenna.. [hell]

In the literal Gehenna, which is the basis of our Lord's illustration, the bodies of animals, etc, frequently fell upon ledges of rocks and not into the fire kept burning below. Thus exposed, these would breed worms and be destroyed by them, as completely and as surely as those which burned. No one was allowed to disturb the contents of this valley; hence the worm and the fire together completed the work of destruction -- the fire was not quenched and the worms died not. This would not imply a never-ending fire, nor everlasting worms. The thought is that the worms did not die off and leave the carcasses there, but continued and completed the work of destruction. So with the fire: it was not quenched, it burned on until all was consumed. Just so if a house were ablaze and the fire could not be controlled or quenched, but burned until the building was destroyed, we might properly call such an "unquenchable fire."