There is no hell.

[Der Alte]

This is the statue Jupiter holding the key to Heaven and giving a Trinity sign. The statue was renamed Saint Peter. The statue is older than Christianity.

Oh please! This is from Fuzzy Lies and Conundrums (Fossilized Customs), by Lew White. Any meaningful research or evidence is virtually nonexistent in that book.

Ahem! Two fingers is NOT a "Tri" anything!

 

[GuardianShua]

This statue of Saint Peter was created by Arnofo di Cambio in the 13th century.

I think Arnofo di Cambio was hired by the Vatican to make a repair to the statue. But I will search for the history on that to see if you are correct.

 

[MaxP]

I think Arnofo di Cambio was hired by the Vatican to make a repair to the statue. But I will search for the history on that to see if you are correct.

He's not.
He's a Catholic.
You know how their always wrong.

 

[a_ntv]

There is no hell.

...prove it.

The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch[1]) is a pseudepigraphic work ascribed to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah and son of Jared (Genesis 5:18).
While this book today is non-canonical in most Christian Churches, it was quoted as a prophetic text in the New Testament (Letter of Jude with also a probable reference in I Peter 3:19,20 to Enoch 6-36, especially 21, 6; 2 Enoch 7:1-5) and by many of the early Church Fathers. It is quoted as Scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas.[2] The Ethiopian Orthodox Church to this day regards it to be canonical.

The more ancient part of the Book of Enoch, dated surely before the II century AD (the date of manuscripts found in Qumran), narrates about hell and paradise. It clearly separate two stages: a hell/paradise (each of them divided in many valleys) where people go after the death and before the final judgment, and the situation after the final judgment.

The same is described in many other Jewish apocryphal texts of the age of Christ: for example in 2 Enoch (before 70) the "pre-final-judgment" paradise is placed in the third heaven as in 2 Cor 12:2 (also the hell is present).

More: in some of them, for example in the Apocalypse of Zephaniah (before 70 ad), there is also a place that we can call purgatory: it is a place into the "pre-final-judgment" paradise burned by flames that came from the hell, and where the dead souls stay waiting for the prayers of the justs to be freed.

So we cannot demonstrate scientifically that paradise/hell/purgatory exist, but we can demonstrate scientifically that these were part of the Jewish imaginary (behold at least by some non-pharisaic Jews) at the time of Jesus Christ.

 

[GuardianShua]

The more ancient part of the Book of Enoch, dated surely before the II century AD (the date of manuscripts found in Qumran), narrates about hell and paradise. It clearly separate two stages: a hell/paradise (each of them divided in many valleys) where people go after the death and before the final judgment, and the situation after the final judgment.

The same is described in many other Jewish apocryphal texts of the age of Christ: for example in 2 Enoch (before 70) the "pre-final-judgment" paradise is placed in the third heaven as in 2 Cor 12:2 (also the hell is present).

More: in some of them, for example in the Apocalypse of Zephaniah (before 70 ad), there is also a place that we can call purgatory: it is a place into the "pre-final-judgment" paradise burned by flames that came from the hell, and where the dead souls stay waiting for the prayers of the justs to be freed.

So we cannot demonstrate scientifically that paradise/hell/purgatory exist, but we can demonstrate scientifically that these were part of the Jewish imaginary (behold at least by some non-pharisaic Jews) at the time of Jesus Christ.

He's not.
He's a Catholic.
You know how their always wrong.

Oh please! This is from Fuzzy Lies and Conundrums (Fossilized Customs), by Lew White. Any meaningful research or evidence is virtually nonexistent in that book.

Ahem! Two fingers is NOT a "Tri" anything!

I'm doing an Internet search now and I came across this very interesting article: http://images.google.com/imgres?img...es?q=%22Jupiter+statue%22&hl=en&safe=off&sa=G

 

[GuardianShua]

The Advent encyclopedia:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12294b.htm

"The famous bronze statue of St. Peter in the basilica of this Apostle in Rome is by some regarded as a work of the fifth or sixth century, by others as pertaining to the thirteenth. ... Lowrie, however, maintains that "no statue of the Renaissance can be compared with this for genuine understanding of the classic dress", and, therefore, this writer holds for the more ancient date. The marble statue of St. Peter taken from the old basilica, now in the crypt of the Vatican, was originally, in all probability, an ancient consular statue which was transformed into a representation of the Prince of Apostles. "

 

[a_ntv]

I'm doing an Internet search now and I came across this very interesting article: http://images.google.com/imgres?img...es?q=%22Jupiter+statue%22&hl=en&safe=off&sa=G

Such site is not at all reliable: it lists almost all hoaxes invented by protestant to discredit Catholics. It is always the same site, there was already a discussion about such a page

If you want to proof that such a statue was a pagan statue of god Jupiter, you shall show us something more reliable, by a third part historicist

 

[a_ntv]

The Advent encyclopedia:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12294b.htm

"The famous bronze statue of St. Peter in the basilica of this Apostle in Rome is by some regarded as a work of the fifth or sixth century, by others as pertaining to the thirteenth. .."

If it is a consular statue of the V or VI century it is for sure NOT a statue of Jupiter, because it in such a centuries Rome was already completely Christian, and no statue of pagan god were produced.

Here a true statue of Jupiter: he is always represented with a Nike in the open hand and a rod in the other hand: a position not at all compatible with Vatican St Peter statue, even before being modified: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3202/3054590603_92ab962bc5.jpg?v=0 Juppiter is always represented as a strong and vigorous man, bare-chested: not at all compatible with Vatican Statue. An other statue of Jupiter: http://www.ostia-antica.org/privrel/a08-04n.jpg

 

[GuardianShua]

If it is a consular statue of the V or VI century it is for sure NOT a statue of Jupiter, because it in such a centuries Rome was already completely Christian, and no statue of pagan god were produced.

Here a true statue of Jupiter: he is always represented with a Nike in the open hand and a rod in the other hand: a position not at all compatible with Vatican St Peter statue, even before being modified: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3202/3054590603_92ab962bc5.jpg?v=0 Juppiter is always represented as a strong and vigorous man, bare-chested: not at all compatible with Vatican Statue. An other statue of Jupiter: http://www.ostia-antica.org/privrel/a08-04n.jpg

It is assumed that it may be from the 5th or 6th century; but it could be older too. What I heard years ago is that it was salvaged from the Roman pantheon. A statue of Ju piter need not always be undressed and holding a Nike.

 

[Der Alte]

[SIZE=-1]It is assumed that it may be from the 5th or 6th century; but it could be older too. What I heard years ago is that it was salvaged from the Roman pantheon. A statue of Ju piter need not always be undressed and holding a Nike.[/SIZE]

What you "heard" or read" years ago is NOT evidence.

Most of this is just your speculation.

 

[GuardianShua]

What you "heard" or read" years ago is NOT evidence.

Most of this is just your speculation.

True, but it is also true that Jupiter was part of a Pagan trinity, and that he held the key to heaven. Do you see the problem?

 

[Der Alte]

True, but it is also true that Jupiter was part of a Pagan trinity, and that he held the key to heaven. Do you see the problem?

There was NEVER any society, EVER, which had a Trinity, or even a Triad of deities, which could have influenced the early church. A triad is a defined group of three deities functioning together to influence the activities of mankind.

NONE of the ancient pantheons had a triad. They all read like a cosmic soap opera. Orgies, conspiracies, betrayals, retaliation, illicit matings, illegitimate offspring, etc. etc If you can produce credible, verifiable, historical evidence, please post it. And OBTW cut/pastes from antitrinitarians-я-us.com[sup]N[/sup] does not constitute evidence.

 

[MaxP]

And OBTW cut/pastes from antitrinitarians-я-us.com[sup]N[/sup] does not constitute evidence.

I can imagine their storefronts.

 

[GuardianShua]

There was NEVER any society, EVER, which had a Trinity, or even a Triad of deities, which could have influenced the early church. A triad is a defined group of three deities functioning together to influence the activities of mankind.

NONE of the ancient pantheons had a triad. They all read like a cosmic soap opera. Orgies, conspiracies, betrayals, retaliation, illicit matings, illegitimate offspring, etc. etc If you can produce credible, verifiable, historical evidence, please post it. And OBTW cut/pastes from antitrinitarians-я-us.com[sup]N[/sup] does not constitute evidence.

Anyone who does not have their head buried in the sand knows what I'm talking about. If you had studied anything on the subject, then you would not be making the statements that you have. Do an Internet search on the words triads, trinity and trinitarism.

 

[MaxP]

Anyone who does not have their head buried in the sand knows what I'm talking about. If you had studied anything on the subject, then you would not be making the statements that you have. Do an Internet search on the words triads, trinity and trinitarism.

Ah, such a learned cop-out. If the evidence is so prevalent, present it.
To be fair, I followed your exhaustive suggestions for research and turned up only that referencing the Trinity.

 

[GuardianShua]

Ah, such a learned cop-out. If the evidence is so prevalent, present it.
To be fair, I followed your exhaustive suggestions for research and turned up only that referencing the Trinity.

I think I'm wasting my time.

 

[MaxP]

I think I'm wasting my time.

...and asked for evidence, there he goes off into the great blue yonder.

 

[GuardianShua]

Ah, such a learned cop-out. If the evidence is so prevalent, present it.
To be fair, I followed your exhaustive suggestions for research and turned up only that referencing the Trinity.

The Internet seems to be flooded with Catholic garbage. You use to be able to find scholarly work. I guess the Internet is becoming irrelevant.

 

[MaxP]

The Internet seems to be flooded with Catholic garbage. You use to be able to find scholarly work. I guess the Internet is becoming irrelevant.

Damn that factual history.
So, I'll take the history supported by generations of historians and evidence over the unsupported ranting of a poster on a message board.
BTW, the internet is not a destination for "scholarly" works. If you get your scholars from the internet, get help. In the form of a book.

 

[GuardianShua]

Damn that factual history.
So, I'll take the history supported by generations of historians and evidence over the unsupported ranting of a poster on a message board.
BTW, the internet is not a destination for "scholarly" works. If you get your scholars from the Internet, get help. In the form of a book.

I have noticed that the Internet is becoming irrelevant to any important questions. It was not always that way.