There is no hell.

[Der Alte]

There was NEVER any society, EVER, which had a Trinity, or even a Triad of deities, which could have influenced the early church. A triad is a defined group of three deities functioning together to influence the activities of mankind.

NONE of the ancient pantheons had a triad. They all read like a cosmic soap opera. Orgies, conspiracies, betrayals, retaliation, illicit matings, illegitimate offspring, etc. etc If you can produce credible, verifiable, historical evidence, please post it. And OBTW cut/pastes from antitrinitarians-я-us.com[sup]N[/sup] does not constitute evidence.

Anyone who does not have their head buried in the sand knows what I'm talking about. If you had studied anything on the subject, then you would not be making the statements that you have. Do an Internet search on the words triads, trinity and trinitarism.

IOW you are unable to back up your assertions. You appear to believe anything, written by anybody, anywhere as long as it supports your assumptions/presuppositions. I have studied, evidently quite a bit more than you have. I have three church histories in my personal library A History of Christianity, Vol. I, Beginnings to 1500, Kenneth Scott Latourette, Harper & Row, 1975. Early Christian Doctrines, J.N.D. Kelley, Harper & Row, 1978, and The History of Doctrines, Reinhold Seeberg, Baker House, 1978. There are reputable sources available but I have found that those are rejected outright by people who are unwilling to know the truth and insist of holding on to their assumptions/presuppositions.

 

[MaxP]

I have noticed that the Internet is becoming irrelevant to any important questions. It was not always that way.

It still isn't.
You regard what you have found as irrelevant because you don't agree with it.
You make assertions with no facts to back them up.
Discussion over.

 

[GuardianShua]

It still isn't.
You regard what you have found as irrelevant because you don't agree with it.
You make assertions with no facts to back them up.
Discussion over.

Oh boy, does the bull ever stop?

 

[GuardianShua]

It still isn't.
You regard what you have found as irrelevant because you don't agree with it.
You make assertions with no facts to back them up.
Discussion over.

Here is one link for you with some scholars mentioned: http://www.geocities.com/robert_upci/origin_of_the_trinity_by_chalfant.htm

Use your own time to find the rest.

 

[GuardianShua]

Back to Hell and Gehenna.​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

 

[Jig]

Eternity is another aspect annihilationism fails to adequately comprehend. Annihilationists are correct that the Greek word aionion, which is usually translated “eternal,” does not by definition mean “eternal.” It specifically refers to an “age” or “eon,” a specific period of time. However, it is clear that in New Testament usage aionion is sometimes used to refer to an eternal amount of time. Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being tormented “day and night forever and ever.” It is clear that these three are not “extinguished” by being cast into the lake of fire. Why would the fate of the unsaved be any different (Revelation 20:14-15)?

The most convincing evidence for the eternality in the LOF is Matthew 25:46: “Then they [the wicked] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the exact same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in Heaven for an age. If believers will be in Heaven forever, unbelievers will be in Hell forever.

 

[mindlight]

There is no hell. The words in scripture were not correctly translated into English. The joining of the Pagan religion about hell is a Catholic invention.See Holman Bible Dictionary at: http://studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T2696
."

There is a hell and just as Christians glimpse heaven in this life so glimpses of hell have been given at many times in human history to Christians and non Christians e.g. the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Auschwitz. To deny the need for hell is to deny the levels of evil of which human beings have been capable. There needs to be a place where such evil could recieve just punishment or there is no freedom and moral choices lack consequence.

The Bible speaks of a place where the worm does not die and the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever and gehenna is not just a rub´bish dump but a place where the devil and his angels and all those whose names are not found in the book of life will go.

 

[GuardianShua]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Annihilationism is the minority Christian doctrine that sinners are destroyed rather than tormented forever in "hell" or the lake of fire. It is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life. Annihilationism asserts that God will eventually destroy or annihilate the wicked, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality. Some annihilationists believe the wicked will be punished for their sins in the lake of fire before being annihilated, others that hell is a false doctrine of pagan origin.

Annihilationist denominations include the Seventh-day Adventists, Bible Students, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians and the various Advent Christian churches. Some Protestant and Anglican[1] writers have also proposed annihilationist doctrines. Annihilationists base the doctrine on their exegesis of scripture, some early church writing, historical criticism of the doctrine of hell, and the concept of God as too loving to punish his creations forever.

What is not mentioned in the above text is that Hell is not an original teaching of Judaism. The Jews (Hebrews) that believe in Hell are the Hellenist and the Kabbalist. It is in relationship to the people returning from Babylon. Another thing is the fact that in the churches that teach: God will torture beings for all eternity without mercy: Is that many of their own members do not accept that doctrine.

 

[ThomasDa]

Eternal punishment not eternal punishing!

The punishment of the incorrigibly wicked is eternal death (that is, to never live again) not eternal torture.

Examples of what happens to the incorrigibly wicked can be read in many places in the Bible.

Ro.6:23 and Jo.3:16 say much the same thing.
Ro.6:23 For the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jo.3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish BUT have everlasting life. Notice that DEATH or PERISHING is spoken of in contrast to eternal LIFE! Death or perishing is not speaking about life some where else doing something else. Notice also that eternal life is God’s gift. It is not something that we are born with! If God does not give us eternal life we can not get it for ourselves.

Before we read Ezk.18:4,20 we need to go back to Genesis. A misunderstanding of the word “soul” is at the crux of much of this misunderstanding. The word translated soul in Gen.2:7 is “Nephesh” (neh’-fesh) the word means a living creature, not something in us, that has its own life apart from us. The first time the word is used in the Bible is Gen.1:21 and is speaking about whales and other animals. This word is continually used to refer to animals of every kind. A few examples can be found in Gen.1:21,24 2:19, 9:10 and on and on. When it is used in Gen.2:7, man becomes a (nephesh) a living creature or a living soul. Man is not given a “nephesh,” he is one.

So now that we understand what a soul is and what it is not we can begin to understand Ezk.18:4 “ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. And again in verse 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Malachi 4speaks to the time when the wicked shall be destroyed.
1“For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” “That will leave them neither root nor branch. [That is total annihilation] Now read verse 3.
“You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Jesus speaks of this event in Mat.25:32-33,41 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Verse 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire ...We just read what happens when these wicked souls end up in this fire Mal.4

In Revelation 20:6 we read that “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power... So the second death does have power over some. That second death is forever, eternal, ETERNAL DEATH.

Few will choose this fate but some rebellious souls will. That is a whole other subject for another time.

 

[Der Alte]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Annihilationism is the minority Christian doctrine that sinners are destroyed rather than tormented forever in "hell" or the lake of fire. It is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life. Annihilationism asserts that God will eventually destroy or annihilate the wicked, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality. Some annihilationists believe the wicked will be punished for their sins in the lake of fire before being annihilated, others that hell is a false doctrine of pagan origin.

Annihilationist denominations include the Seventh-day Adventists, Bible Students, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians and the various Advent Christian churches. Some Protestant and Anglican[1] writers have also proposed annihilationist doctrines. Annihilationists base the doctrine on their exegesis of scripture, some early church writing, historical criticism of the doctrine of hell, and the concept of God as too loving to punish his creations forever.

Wiki is about as reliable as the graffiti on certain public facility walls. Scroll to top and note the link, "Edit this page." Anybody, with a PC, can post anything and/or change anything at Wiki

[SIZE=-1]What is not mentioned in the above text is that Hell is not an original teaching of Judaism. The Jews (Hebrews) that believe in Hell are the Hellenist and the Kabbalist. It is in relationship to the people returning from Babylon. Another thing is the fact that in the churches that teach: God will torture beings for all eternity without mercy: Is that many of their own members do not accept that doctrine.

What is not mentioned here is any credible, verifiable, historical evidence for any of this. Unsupported assumptions/presuppositions.

I have posted evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia showing that from ancient times Judaism taught, from scripture, that God had prepared a place of conscious eternal punishment for those who reject him[/SIZE]

 

[GuardianShua]

Wiki is about as reliable as the graffiti on certain public facility walls. Scroll to top and note the link, "Edit this page." Anybody, with a PC, can post anything and/or change anything at Wiki



What is not mentioned here is any credible, verifiable, historical evidence for any of this. Unsupported assumptions/presuppositions.

I have posted evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia showing that from ancient times Judaism taught, from scripture, that God had prepared a place of conscious eternal punishment for those who reject him

[Staff Edit] Just the word "Babylon" alone, should set off bells a ringing in your head if you study the bible and history. [Staff Edit]

 

[Der Alte]

Eternal punishment not eternal punishing!

The punishment of the incorrigibly wicked is eternal death (that is, to never live again) not eternal torture.

Examples of what happens to the incorrigibly wicked can be read in many places in the Bible.

Ro.6:23 and Jo.3:16 say much the same thing.
Ro.6:23 For the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jo.3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perishBUT have everlasting life. Notice that DEATH or PERISHING is spoken of in contrast to eternal LIFE! Death or perishing is not speaking about life some where else doing something else. Notice also that eternal life is God’s gift. It is not something that we are born with! If God does not give us eternal life we can not get it for ourselves.

Before we read Ezk.18:4,20 we need to go back to Genesis. A misunderstanding of the word “soul” is at the crux of much of this misunderstanding. The word translated soul in Gen.2:7 is “Nephesh” (neh’-fesh) the word means a living creature, not something in us, that has its own life apart from us. The first time the word is used in the Bible is Gen.1:21 and is speaking about whales and other animals. This word is continually used to refer to animals of every kind. A few examples can be found in Gen.1:21,24 2:19, 9:10 and on and on. When it is used in Gen.2:7, man becomes a (nephesh) a living creature or a living soul. Man is not given a “nephesh,” he is one.

So now that we understand what a soul is and what it is not we can begin to understand Ezk.18:4 “ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. And again in verse 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Malachi 4speaks to the time when the wicked shall be destroyed.
1“For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” “That will leave them neither root nor branch. [That is total annihilation] Now read verse 3.
“You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Jesus speaks of this event in Mat.25:32-33,41 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Verse 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire ...We just read what happens when these wicked souls end up in this fire Mal.4

In Revelation 20:6 we read that “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power... So the second death does have power over some. That second death is forever, eternal, ETERNAL DEATH.

Few will choose this fate but some rebellious souls will. That is a whole other subject for another time.

Punishment which is not experienced is not punishment.

Why did Jesus use an example of a person being consciously tormented in flames, to describe the condition of a person after death, if such a place/condition does not exist and was a pagan concept incorporated by Christians?

This verse makes no sense if instantaneous death is the eternal punishment.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

If all these evil persons instantaneously cease to exist they have no part in anything.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

If the unrepentant instantaneously cease to exist, then the smoke is no longer theirs. And note they get no rest day or night. 10,000 times 10,000 eons from now God''s unchanging word will still say, "they have no rest day nor night."

 

[ThomasDa]

Who said it was instant? Being burned to death is not fun.

 

[GuardianShua]

Punishment which is not experienced is not punishment.

Why did Jesus use an example of a person being consciously tormented in flames, to describe the condition of a person after death, if such a place/condition does not exist and was a pagan concept incorporated by Christians?

This verse makes no sense if instantaneous death is the eternal punishment.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

If all these evil persons instantaneously cease to exist they have no part in anything.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

If the unrepentant instantaneously cease to exist, then the smoke is no longer theirs. And note they get no rest day or night. 10,000 times 10,000 eons from now God''s unchanging word will still say, "they have no rest day nor night."

Torment and torture, or punishment. As said before many times, the word "Fire" and such are often used to mean Judgment. If the condemed are DEAD, then how can there be life in Hell. And besides that the correct translation is "Grave," not hell.

 

[Der Alte]

Torment and torture, or punishment. As said before many times, the word "Fire" and such are often used to mean Judgment. If the condemed are DEAD, then how can there be life in Hell. And besides that the correct translation is "Grave," not hell.

We have only your assumptions/presuppositions for any of this. I quoted scripture you ignored it. If you don't like what scripture says, argue with God, I only quoted it. I did not write it.

 

[Der Alte]

Who said it was instant? Being burned to death is not fun.

So are they tormented, for some period of time before they die? The argument being made here is that being thrown into the LOF, "is the second death." So is it death or is it some period, however brief, of conscious torment in flames? I thought that entire concept was totally pagan? But now you seem to be saying that there is conscious torment in flames.

And as with MTAA you have not addressed the scripture I posted.

 

[GuardianShua]

We have only your assumptions/presuppositions for any of this. I quoted scripture you ignored it. If you don't like what scripture says, argue with God, I only quoted it. I did not write it.

I have noticed that everything I say is an assumption, presupposition or opinion. Your pattern has been consistent. Do you think by useing those words you will nullify anything I present?

 

[MaxP]

I have noticed that everything I say is an assumption, presupposition or opinion. Your pattern has been consistent. Do you think by useing those words you will nullify anything I present?

Anything without facts.

A couple pages ago your train collapsed when asked for facts.
So I will ask again:
facts?

 

[MaxP]

Here is one link for you with some scholars mentioned: http://www.geocities.com/robert_upci/origin_of_the_trinity_by_chalfant.htm

Use your own time to find the rest.

Yes, I'll waste my time proving YOUR argument. Good job buddy.

 

[Der Alte]

I have noticed that everything I say is an assumption, presupposition or opinion. Your pattern has been consistent. Do you think by useing those words you will nullify anything I present?

You have presented nothing to "nullify." You make assertions without any support or evidence. For example, "As said before many times, the word "Fire" and such are often used to mean Judgment." Other than you simply saying this, where is any scriptural or historical evidence that "fire" is often used to mean judgment?

"If the condemed are DEAD, then how can there be life in Hell." Another assertion with no evidence. Although I presented scripture showing action "somewhere" after physical death. And this ignores the scripture I posted above.

"And besides that the correct translation is "Grave," not hell." Even ancient Jews used the word "hell" to describe the place of eternal punishment prepared by God for those who reject him. Making assertions about "Babylon" does NOT address anything.