There is no Hell!

[Nadiine]

Ben...think it through...if God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are not all one...but yet all God(s) then you are a multi-theist.

If you deny the Trinity but yet claim monotheism...you must deny either God the Father, or deny God the Son at some point...and no one...under any circumstances should deny the Holy Spirit...

monotheism...only works in Christianity IF you believe the Trinity....period

Exactly - and this is why the Trinity is the ONLY doctrine that keeps the entire bible in complete unity without contradiction anywhere ... and it makes full sense.

Without it, you have conflicting scriptures, blasphemy and/or idolatry going on somewhere in your worship and glorification of Christ.
It doesn't work outside of a Trinity and it's why it's been taught from early on once the NT books came into play; it put it all together.

Sure it's still complex and a mystery, but we CAN grasp it in the examples God gives us down here in our own relationships and structures of plural oneness - in a family and husband and wife unit.
God has always used replications of what's in heaven above, BELOW HERE for our visual example.
Look at Exodus [36?] with the building of the Temple; it was a reflection of above, below.

 

[GuardianShua]

Looking at Ben's punctuation... odd use of semi-colons...

anyway...

Joh 10:30 I and My Father are one."


Did God the Father cease to be while He was in the flesh as the Son?

Did Jesus cease to be once He returned to the Father when He shed His flesh? If so...we're all doomed.

Do we not reside in Jesus and He in us by the power of the Holy Spirit?

There are tons of Scripture that tells us exactly that...

Just for starters...

Joh 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Ben...think it through...if God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are not all one...but yet all God(s) then you are a multitheist.

If you deny the Trinity but yet claim monotheism...you must deny either God the Father, or deny God the Son at some point...and no one...under any circumstances should deny the Holy Spirit...

monotheism...only works in Christianity IF you believe the Trinity....period

(side note)
Omnipresent means...present in ALL places at ALL times

God can easily sit on His throne in heaven and be everywhere else at the same time...that's the whole purpose of omnipresence...

The Greatest Commandment
28. One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29. "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31. The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these."

32. "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." Ephesians 4
Unity in the Body of Christ
1. As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5. one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6. one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Christians are called to be one with Christ. Does that mean we are part of the God head and trinity?

 

[GuardianShua]

Jesus is one, united with God; And we are also called to be one, and all, united with God, through Christ.

 

[Ben12]

Looking at Ben's punctuation... odd use of semi-colons...

anyway...

Joh 10:30 I and My Father are one."


Did God the Father cease to be while He was in the flesh as the Son?

Did Jesus cease to be once He returned to the Father when He shed His flesh? If so...we're all doomed.

Do we not reside in Jesus and He in us by the power of the Holy Spirit?

There are tons of Scripture that tells us exactly that...

Just for starters...

Joh 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Ben...think it through...if God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are not all one...but yet all God(s) then you are a multi-theist.

If you deny the Trinity but yet claim monotheism...you must deny either God the Father, or deny God the Son at some point...and no one...under any circumstances should deny the Holy Spirit...

monotheism...only works in Christianity IF you believe the Trinity....period

(side note)
Omnipresent means...present in ALL places at ALL times

God can easily sit on His throne in heaven and be everywhere else at the same time...that's the whole purpose of omnipresence...

Oh...one other thought...Remember Jesus walked in His resurrected, glorified body...and talked and ate and showed Thomas the nail marks in His hand...and Thomas touched them...

Why would we think God the Father could not have some form as well? A form that sits on His throne...??? Personally ...I don't think I would limit God to my understanding of form...
</IMG></IMG>

You keep on the attack; please answer my simple question.

Where does it say God is a person?

Yes God did step down from His throne (but at the same time He never left it)and became flesh; God was manifested in the flesh. I just quoted the scripture in 1 Tim 3:16. Notice it says Mystery of Godliness; not the "mystery of the trinity".

1 Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. KJV

Yes I am lousy with punctuation, grammar spelling.

 

[GuardianShua]

You keep on the attack; please answer my simple question.

Where does it say God is a person?

Yes God did step down from His throne (but at the same time He never left it)and became flesh; God was manifested in the flesh. I just quoted the scripture in 1 Tim 3:16.

Ben, would'nt it be better to say that they rule together, side by side. Also 1 Tim 3:16 is another place where translation vs interpretation is an issue. No wonder it's so hard for all Christians to talk to each other. The problem is who's translation, and who's interpretation. Everyone pointing their finger at the other. Some how, as a Christian community we must find a solution to this problem. I would like to state this to all who call themselves Christians: An Exhaustive Concordance is a very usefull tool. And more than one type is better yet, because you can see both sides of the coin. I use both, the old KJ and the NIV concordance.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I guess some people view an Exhaustive Concordance as the book of the damned. I am also aware that trinitarism goes back long before Christianity. It dates back all the way back to the days of Jonah. However, it was Constantine the Great who joined trinitarism to Christianity. Before then it was completly rejected by the Christian community.

And "Exhaustive Concordance" is limited. It is simply a tool. For instance, as an Exhaustive concordance, Strongs is limited. It gives where the word comes from, its ethmology...and then what words it is translated into in the Authorized Version. It does NOT consider context at all.

To make doctrine out of just an Exhaustive concordance is poor theology indeed!

 

[GuardianShua]

And "Exhaustive Concordance" is limited. It is simply a tool. For instance, as an Exhaustive concordance, Strongs is limited. It gives where the word comes from, its ethmology...and then what words it is translated into in the Authorized Version. It does NOT consider context at all.

To make doctrine out of just an Exhaustive concordance is poor theology indeed!

A person is suppose to consider context. An Exhaustive Concordance is usefull in seeing how the scholar translated bible words. With it you can see if they translated a word or gave an interpretation. And that is vital in our understanding of Gods truth. With it you can see who is speaking Gods truth or is a heretic. And who is a Pagan Christian or who is a Judeo Christian. It would be foolish to undermine it's importance. With it you can develope a spirit of discernment. And that is VERY IMPORTANT.

 

[SoundCard]

Spirit of discernment? That's a surprise hearing you use such rhetoric, when you're blinded by your obsession with all common thoughts in Christianity, which have scriptural basis to boot, are some conspiracy hundreds, thousands of years in the making by evil Catholics who have gone and contorted every last line of scripture, yet somehow you sifted through all that to find the truth? I'm sorry, but I can't take arguments like yours or Ben12's seriously, because you label everyone who disagrees with your views as Pagan Christians, or whatever moniker Ben12 can think of, and this entire thread is an example of that. Then any further arguments we may have are simply dismissed as being influenced by these things, either by the "evil Catholics" or being members of "Baby lon". Would Jesus toss around such rhetoric? Would he call sinners and such he was trying to save these things? I somehow doubt it. Point out their sins, tell us to repent, lay our trust and hearts upon Him, and do our best to live for the Lord. Fundamentals of scripture are seen being torn apart and misinterpeted as something not of God in my opinion, and that's what I see in this.

 

[FreeinChrist]

A person is suppose to consider context. An Exhaustive Concordance is usefull in seeing how the scholar translated bible words. With it you can see if they translated a word or gave an interpretation. And that is vital in our understanding of Gods truth. With it you can see who is speaking Gods truth or is a heretic. And who is a Pagan Christian or who is a Judeo Christian. It would be foolish to undermine it's importance. With it you can develope a spirit of discernment. And that is VERY IMPORTANT.

And Exhaustive concordance is simply a tool - that is all. I have been using one for decades and also interlinear Bibles. Tools - but developing a theology is far more than just that.

 

[GuardianShua]

And Exhaustive concordance is simply a tool - that is all. I have been using one for decades and also interlinear Bibles. Tools - but developing a theology is far more than just that.

And where do some of our theological ideals come form? And who canonized the bible? Sometimes hindsight is 20/20.

 

[GuardianShua]

Spirit of discernment? That's a surprise hearing you use such rhetoric, when you're blinded by your obsession with all common thoughts in Christianity, which have scriptural basis to boot, are some conspiracy hundreds, thousands of years in the making by evil Catholics who have gone and contorted every last line of scripture, yet somehow you sifted through all that to find the truth? I'm sorry, but I can't take arguments like yours or Ben12's seriously, because you label everyone who disagrees with your views as Pagan Christians, or whatever moniker Ben12 can think of, and this entire thread is an example of that. Then any further arguments we may have are simply dismissed as being influenced by these things, either by the "evil Catholics" or being members of "Baby lon". Would Jesus toss around such rhetoric? Would he call sinners and such he was trying to save these things? I somehow doubt it. Point out their sins, tell us to repent, lay our trust and hearts upon Him, and do our best to live for the Lord. Fundamentals of scripture are seen being torn apart and misinterpeted as something not of God in my opinion, and that's what I see in this.

Having been raised a Baptist, I am disappointed that not eveything I had been taught is true. Although I would like to think that it was not intentual. That is why I ask Christians to take responceability for what they believe as a doctrinal belief. And a Exhaustive Concordance is a good place to start. In that way, no one has to take my word or anybody else's word for what is true, but they can see it for themselfves. It also helps to know something about Christian history. There are people here that don't agree with what I have said here, and if I get band from this forum, at lease I know that I tried to be helpful for those seeking this kind of info.

 

[Cris413]

<snip>

Great Scripture MTAA...I encourage further reading....

Christians are called to be one with Christ. Does that mean we are part of the God head and trinity?

Not in the sense...we will ever attain the deity of God.

We must never confuse the Creator and the creation.

But there are those who consider Jesus is also a created being...then this misunderstanding that we would become God would make sense to them.

Isn't that one of the lies the serpent fed Eve...

Gen 3:5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

That is one of the tastiest morsels in the enemy's bag of goodies...to try and convince us we can be "like God" or even gods ourselves...just ask Shirley Mclaine....

Metaphysically speaking...IN Christ Jesus and IN unity of the Spirit we are coheirs with Christ Jesus in the Kingdom...

Do I understand all the things of God? I would say absolutely not...but my lack of understanding does not change the truth of Scripture...so I trust Jesus when He prays for all the believers:

Joh 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Joh 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Would I be so egotistical to believe that my belief in Christ Jesus makes me equal with Him? Hardly...

How awesome is it that God desires such an intimate relationship with us...Possible only through Christ Jesus

It's also interesting the word tells us:

Mat 19:5 and said, "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'

Now does this make me my husband or make my husband me?

No...but spiritually speaking we are one.

How awesome is it that we are The Bride of Christ!

Not Christ...but the Bride of Christ...

Kinda hard to wrap your head around...considering how wretched we are in our flesh...and all I can say is

thank you Lord! Praise your Holy Name!

The Father is God...and the Son is God...and the Holy Spirit is God...we have 3 Divine beings...All One.

None of this makes us God...

Let's lend a little...even a tiny bit... of spiritual wisdom here shall we...

 

[GuardianShua]

Great Scripture MTAA...I encourage further reading....


Not in the sense...we will ever attain the deity of God.

We must never confuse the Creator and the creation.

But there are those who consider Jesus is also a created being...then this misunderstanding that we would become God would make sense to them.

Isn't that one of the lies the serpent fed Eve...

Gen 3:5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

That is one of the tastiest morsels in the enemy's bag of goodies...to try and convince us we can be "like God" or even gods ourselves...just ask Shirley Mclaine....

Metaphysically speaking...IN Christ Jesus and IN unity of the Spirit we are coheirs with Christ Jesus in the Kingdom...

Do I understand all the things of God? I would say absolutely not...but my lack of understanding does not change the truth of Scripture...so I trust Jesus when He prays for all the believers:

Joh 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Joh 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Would I be so egotistical to believe that my belief in Christ Jesus makes me equal with Him? Hardly...

How awesome is it that God desires such an intimate relationship with us...Possible only through Christ Jesus

It's also interesting the word tells us:

Mat 19:5 and said, "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'

Now does this make me my husband or make my husband me?

No...but spiritually speaking we are one.

How awesome is it that we are The Bride of Christ!

Not Christ...but the Bride of Christ...

Kinda hard to wrap your head around...considering how wretched we are in our flesh...and all I can say is

thank you Lord! Praise your Holy Name!

The Father is God...and the Son is God...and the Holy Spirit is God...we have 3 Divine beings...All One.

None of this makes us God...

Let's lend a little...even a tiny bit... of spiritual wisdom here shall we...

And thank you for sharing that scripture with us. For those who have ears to hear, it says a lot about how we should understand scripture. And so we are also called to be one in Christ. And again I say that God has many names, but that does not make Him many persons. God is a Spirit, and He is Holy; so let us try not to grieve His Holy Spirit.

 

[Cris413]

You keep on the attack

Not attacking you Ben...but your doctrine...I guess that's why it's called spiritual warfare...

please answer my simple question.

Where does it say God is a person?

I think we need to understand...how limited we are in our understanding... No wait...that makes sense... We have a tendensy to "personify" God because we are not able to conceive God in His full glory...so we do the best we can.

We all know that the Bible does not say that God is a person other than when He became flesh and dwelt among us...

Yes God did step down from His throne (but at the same time He never left it)and became flesh; God was manifested in the flesh.

How is possible to make this comment without a Trinitarian belief? God is still God on the throne...never left it...but stepped down and was manifest in the flesh...this is exactly what I'm talking about Ben...

How can God be fully God and fully man and send His Spirit and still remain fully God....THIS IS THE TRINITY!

By George!..I think you've got it!

I just quoted the scripture in 1 Tim 3:16. Notice it says Mystery of Godliness; not the "mystery of the trinity".
1 Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. KJV

The thing I find interesting about your pursuit of this is that you are always going on and on about the deep meanings and sybolisms and hidden truths and sacred secrets and such...in support of your bad doctrine...

but when something goes against your thoughts...then we MUST take a literal view and a literal view only.....that's the kinda stuff hypocrisy is made of...

Yes I am lousy with punctuation, grammar spelling.

I was really confused by the punctuation...and I really did not want to think that you were suggesting in any way that Jesus was not God...
</IMG></IMG></IMG>

 

[Cris413]

And thank you for sharing that scripture with us. For those who have ears to hear, it says a lot about how we should understand scripture. And so we are also called to be one in Christ. And again I say that God has many names, but that does not make Him many persons. God is a Spirit, and He is Holy; so let us try not to grieve His Holy Spirit.

If you understand my post...then why do you have a problem with the Trinity?

Because that is exactly what I described...The Trinity

Christianity is not multi-theistic...

One God in the form of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit...

My apologies if I was not clear on that in my post....

I was mainly addressing your question...why we are not God even though we are IN Christ...

Please do not misunderstand....nor infer that I could have meant anything other than that...

 

[GuardianShua]

If you understand my post...then why do you have a problem with the Trinity?

Because that is exactly what I described...The Trinity

Christianity is not multi-theistic...

One God in the form of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit...

My apologies if I was not clear on that in my post....

I was mainly addressing your question...why we are not God even though we are IN Christ...

Please do not misunderstand....nor infer that I could have meant anything other than that...

John 17:21. that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
This scripture here says it all, John 17:21. I also would like to ask everyone here if they have studied how the Trinitarian doctrine came to be. Check the history of the Trinitarian doctrine on the internet and get back to me.

 

[Ben12]

Not attacking you Ben...but your doctrine...I guess that's why it's called spiritual warfare...

I think we need to understand...how limited we are in our understanding... No wait...that makes sense... We have a tendensy to "personify" God because we are not able to conceive God in His full glory...so we do the best we can.

We all know that the Bible does not say that God is a person other than when He became flesh and dwelt among us...

How is possible to make this comment without a Trinitarian belief? God is still God on the throne...never left it...but stepped down and was manifest in the flesh...this is exactly what I'm talking about Ben...

How can God be fully God and fully man and send His Spirit and still remain fully God....THIS IS THE TRINITY!

By George!..I think you've got it!



The thing I find interesting about your pursuit of this is that you are always going on and on about the deep meanings and sybolisms and hidden truths and sacred secrets and such...in support of your bad doctrine...

but when something goes against your thoughts...then we MUST take a literal view and a literal view only.....that's the kinda stuff hypocrisy is made of...
I was really confused by the punctuation...and I really did not want to think that you were suggesting in any way that Jesus was not God...
</IMG></IMG></IMG>

I have no religion to point to truth; you know that and know it frustrate all of you. But the glory of being this way is if God&#8217;s spirit can reveals a new truth with in I believe and walk in it; you do not have that freedom.
The veil was torn from top to bottom when Jesus died on Calvary; so His reality can be revealed; there is nothing stopping us; but our fleshly understanding and religious reasoning.
I am the first to admit you are awesome to admit; &#8220;the Bible does not say that God is a person other than when He became flesh and dwelt among us&#8221; appreciate your honesty.
You attack my doctrine as you claim and I understand that; but if God is not a person (you are the literalist) where is your trinity; unless Orthodoxy is your truth; not scripture revealed by God&#8217;s Spirit with in you. You need to have some reference somewhere that God is a person to have a trinity? I even have reference why I do not believe in eternal torture; even though most of you totally do not agree with it.
God can be fully God; because God is fully God. Scripture declares God was manifest in the flesh.
There are many things I look at is scripture that are literal; what matters to me is when all the facts are presented I follow what His Spirit reveals to me. I love His spirit and trust His Spirit; I do not trust man and his religions.
I take it literal the Spirit of truth will lead and guide me into all truth. The reason I do not believe there is a trinity is because God is one; not three persons; not three God&#8217;s. You have seen some of my laundry list already.
If you knew me, you would understand my lousy grammer

 

[FreeinChrist]

If you understand my post...then why do you have a problem with the Trinity?

Because that is exactly what I described...The Trinity

Christianity is not multi-theistic...

One God in the form of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit...

My apologies if I was not clear on that in my post....

I was mainly addressing your question...why we are not God even though we are IN Christ...

Please do not misunderstand....nor infer that I could have meant anything other than that...

Yes there is One God - but that One God is in 3 Persons - the Father, the son and Holy Spirit, but one essense. It is an important doctrine as to understanding just who Jesus is and what God has done for us.

To be "in Christ" simply mens we are saved by Christ and in communion with Him as our Savior

 

[FreeinChrist]

And where do some of our theological ideals come form?

Scripture and the Holy Spirit

And who canonized the bible?

There was strong recognition before canonization as to what was scripture and what awasn't in the the second century.

Sometimes hindsight is 20/20.

I don't beleive you understand history as you claim.

 

[GuardianShua]

Scripture and the Holy Spirit

There was strong recognition before canonization as to what was scripture and what awasn't in the the second century.

I don't beleive you understand history as you claim.

History of The Trinity

The growth of the doctrine of a triune God, is briefly but plainly, set forth in the following facts:

A.D. 29 Jesus said, "The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29).

A.D. 57 Paul said, "To us there is but one God" (1 Cor. 8:6).

A.D. 120 "Apostles' Creed": "I believe in God the Father".

A.D. 150 Justin Martyr, introduces Greek Philosophy.

A.D. 170 The word "Trias", appears first in Christian literature.

A.D. 200. "Trinitas" is first introduced by Tertullian.

A.D. 280 Origen, opposes prayers to Christ.

A.D. 260 Sabellius: "Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three names for the same God".

A.D. 325 "Nicene Creed" afflrms Christ to be "Very God of Very God".

A.D. 381. Council of Constantinople invents "Three persons in One God".

A.D. 388 Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who won't worship the Trinity.

The Athanasian Creed

According to the "Athanasian Creed", "Whosoever will be saved; before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep-whole and undefiled: without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic faith is this: "That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons: nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son: and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate: and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible: and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal: and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals: but one Eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated; but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty: and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties: but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God: and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods: but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord: and the Holy Ghost is Lord. And yet not three Lords: but one Lord". And, it goes on to say: "And in this Trinity none is afore, or after another: none is greater, or less than another: But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together: and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved: must thus think of the Trinity".