There is no Hell!

[GuardianShua]

Yep - Mormons teach the preexistence of man as spirit babies.

And JWs teach that Jesus is a created being like he wrote earlier.

When God said "our image" was He talking to Himself or other people?

 

[Tavita]

I am not a Morman, and I am not teaching that God created man in Heaven. Im saying that there were other created beings with God when he made man. And the scriptures that I posted was an answer to someone elses question.

Hey Michael,

What other created beings? Are you talking about angels, and spirits etc? If so, then as Nadiine and other's pointed out, man was made in the image of God Himself and not other beings. I don't think He has ever said the angels and other spirits were created in His image anywhere in scripture.

Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

 

[Nadiine]

When God said "our image" was He talking to Himself or other people?

the 3 are the One true God. God the Father talks to Christ, as the Spirit can talk to Jesus, and Jesus to the Father, etc.
Just like a husband and wife (being ONE FLESH) can talk to one another.

Yes, He was talking to one of the other's of the Trinity. They were the only ones around "in the beginning".

 

[GuardianShua]

Hey Michael,

What other created beings? Are you talking about angels, and spirits etc? If so, then as Nadiine and other's pointed out, man was made in the image of God Himself and not other beings. I don't think He has ever said the angels and other spirits were created in His image anywhere in scripture.

Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

God is a Spirit, and He is a Holy Spirit, and the people who live with Him in His Kingdom of Heaven are spirits. If the word angel was translated into English it would read "messenger." If it would have been translated. They are immortal, and we are mortal. And if God did not call us back into being then we would never live again. The new bodies that we will be given are not of this flesh but of the spirit.

 

[Tavita]

God is a Spirit, and He is a Holy Spirit, and the people who live with Him in His Kingdom of Heaven are spirits. If the word angel was translated into English it would read "messenger." If it would have been translated. They are immortal, and we are mortal. And if God did not call us back into being then we would never live again. The new bodies that we will be given are not of this flesh but of the spirit.

Oh, okay.. there has been some misunderstanding going on here.. we had better be careful with the words we choose.
I can agree with what you've just said.

But it still says in Gen 1:26 -27 that man was only made in God's image and not the other spirits, or messengers image. So, the 'our' has to mean something else.

 

[GuardianShua]

Rev 1:20. The seven Lampstand is the Seven Churches. Zec 3:8. " 'Listen, O high priest of Yahshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9. See, the stone I have setup as Yahshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says Yahwah Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

 

[GuardianShua]

Oh, okay.. there has been some misunderstanding going on here.. we had better be careful with the words we choose.
I can agree with what you've just said.

But it still says in Gen 1:26 -27 that man was only made in God's image and not the other spirits, or messengers image. So, the 'our' has to mean something else.

But it still says in Gen 1:26 -27 that man was only made in God's image and not the other spirits, or messengers image. So, the 'our' has to mean something else. Does your bible truly say that, or are those your words?

 

[FreeinChrist]

When God said "our image" was He talking to Himself or other people?

The word used for God in this verse is Eloihim - which is plural. God the Father was speaking to Christ, not other people. The claim thatHe is speaking to other people is testually inconsistent - the chapter is speaking of the creation of the universe, world and finally man.

The Trinity is seen in the first two verses of the Bible:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Again, the word for God is Eloihim - a plural word.

And from other scripture we know who is the Word and through whom all was created:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities

So in the first 2 verses we see God the Father, Christ and the Spirit of the Lord - the Trinity.

the Trinity is also seen in the OT Tabernacle:
As one enters through the door of the tent, on the right was the table of shewbread (Jesus said He was the bread of life), and on the left, the 7 candled lamp (represents the 7 fold Spirit of God) and in the middle, behind the curtain, the ark sat, and on top of that the 'mercy seat' and flory of the Lord was there - it represented the throne of God the Father ( see Hebrews 8-10 for that).

I see no justicification for your claims at all. They are heredox.

 

[Tavita]

Rev 1:20. The seven Lampstand is the Seven Churches. Zec 3:8. " 'Listen, O high priest of Yahshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9. See, the stone I have setup as Yahshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says Yahwah Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

There's a whole lot of meaning in that chapter, Michael, that I've not looked into before. There is much symbology and deeper meanings that would have to be studied out.

The seven eyes have to do with the seven lampstands and the seven churches, but I can't connect it tonight, and I don't know what it has to do with the Trinity, and the 'our', or the 'others'. I'm not up for it right now.

So, I'm off...

 

[GuardianShua]

The word used for God in this verse is Eloihim - which is plural. God the Father was speaking to Christ, not other people. The claim thatHe is speaking to other people is testually inconsistent - the chapter is speaking of the creation of the universe, world and finally man.

The Trinity is seen in the first two verses of the Bible:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Again, the word for God is Eloihim - a plural word.

And from other scripture we know who is the Word and through whom all was created:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities

The name word "Elohiym" is plural because of the last part of His name. Hiym: Living. God of the Living.

 

[GuardianShua]

There's a whole lot of meaning in that chapter, Michael, that I've not looked into before. There is much symbology and deeper meanings that would have to be studied out.

The seven eyes have to do with the seven lampstands and the seven churches, but I can't connect it tonight, and I don't know what it has to do with the Trinity, and the 'our', or the 'others'. I'm not up for it right now.

So, I'm off...

Well good night eveyone, talk to you another day.

 

[Tavita]

But it still says in Gen 1:26 -27 that man was only made in God's image and not the other spirits, or messengers image. So, the 'our' has to mean something else. Does your bible truly say that, or are those your words?

From the ISA Hebrew Scripture Analyzer..

Gen 1:27 and he-is-creating Elohim the human in-image of him in image-of Elohim he created him male and female.

It says man was created in the image of Elohim. Elohim is not His created beings.. spirits or messengers etc.

 

[FreeinChrist]

God is a Spirit, and He is a Holy Spirit, and the people who live with Him in His Kingdom of Heaven are spirits. If the word angel was translated into English it would read "messenger." If it would have been translated. They are immortal, and we are mortal. And if God did not call us back into being then we would never live again. The new bodies that we will be given are not of this flesh but of the spirit.

There is nothing that says the spirits of people lived with God before the creation of man which is shown in Gen 1:26.

Those that have lived and died in faith doe live with God in heaven as a spirit - until the time of the resurrection. Then we will be reunited with a glorified body. That however, is beside the point. You are presenting a teaching that is outside of orthodoxy in your claim that God was referring to other people when He said "our" in 1:26.

You can repeat your posts as you have done - but they still do not support your unorthodox belief.

 

[Tavita]

There is nothing that says the spirits of people lived with God before the creation of man which is shown in Gen 1:26.

Those that have lived and died in faith doe live with God in heaven as a spirit - until the time of the resurrection. Then we will be reunited with a glorified body. That however, is beside the point. You are presenting a teaching that is outside of orthodoxy in your claim that God was referring to other people when He said "our" in 1:26.

You can repeat your posts as you have done - but they still do not support your unorthodox belief.

You've got to admit though, that in the beginning, Genesis, the creation that we know of, and can see, touch, smell etc, was born, we know that Satan and the messengers and other spiritual entities were created in the spiritual world or realm before THIS world was created. That's all Michael is trying to say, in this post.

 

[FreeinChrist]

The name word "Elohiym" is plural because of the last part of His name. Hiym: Living. God of the Living.

No - it is the plural of 'elowahh'

 

[FreeinChrist]

In another thread, you wrote:

The Trinitarian doctrine was introduced into Christianity by Constantine the Great, who was also the Pagan high priest. He proclaimed to be head of the Christian Church but maintained his Pagan priest hood.

Actually, no. The Council of Nicea clearly stated it as they had been dealing with various heresies. But the Trinity is seen in scripture and in the writings of the ECF.

Epistle of Barnabus, about 100 AD, 5th chapter and I am making some of it bold:

“And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, 'Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,' understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men”

And then there is Irenaeus, about 150 AD:
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l) "

Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata, Book V, ch. 14- about 100 years before Constantine:
“I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.”


I could post more but need to sleep.

 

[GuardianShua]

I guess some people view an Exhaustive Concordance as the book of the damned. I am also aware that trinitarism goes back long before Christianity. It dates back all the way back to the days of Jonah. However, it was Constantine the Great who joined trinitarism to Christianity. Before then it was completly rejected by the Christian community.

 

[Nadiine]

I guess some people view an Exhaustive Concordance as the book of the damned. I am also aware that trinitarism goes back long before Christianity. It dates back all the way back to the days of Jonah. However, it was Constantine the Great who joined trinitarism to Christianity. Before then it was completly rejected by the Christian community.

I think something should be noted and made very clear here.
The Bible writings are directly inspired by the Holy Spirit to each writer. Their wording in the verses are purposeful - they gave pinpointed prophecies which I doubt they even realized that were pointing right to Christ and what would be fulfilled; they were just being LED to write these very things supernaturally. (things they couldn't possibly know yet).

[We can't very well claim that "because the OT writers didn't realize they were prophecies of Christ at that time - or even by the disciples upon seeing Jesus fulfilling them that THEY AREN'T OT PROPHECIES OF JESUS AT ALL"... Just like we can't claim that "some people in the church didn't grasp that Jesus was God yet, so..... JESUS THEREFORE CANNOT BE GOD, it's pagan heresy".
THE WORDING IS ALL THERE AND DIRECTLY TEACHES HE IS GOD and that the 3 are the One True God. Further, the early Christian churches DID embrace it as truth upon finding it. Creeds were even demanded to keep nontrinitarian heresies from infiltrating the churches].

I think it's important to remember that in the OT they didn't know about all the details we know today by the NT writings when Christ revealed them to the Disciples. BUT NOW WE HAVE THE FULL MYSTERY REVEALED TO US.

That's why I believe in earlier times, they didn't grasp the Trinity early on -- but the Trinity and Deity of Christ are directly displayed in and through the writings but still needed to be fully put together by the readers later.
My belief is that the actual identity of God (Christ is Deity/Trinity) are A HIDDEN MYSTERY that is not overtly shown openly, yet shown in great detail to be found by us upon reading; just as the prophecies were given by the OT writers who had no idea what they were yet.

Meaning, it's spelled out, yet not spelled out at the same time. Jesus IS called God in 2 direct passages - yet people are ignoring them both -- He calls Himself "I AM" as a name... which is a claim of Deity directly in John 8 (which the People even understood as such) - that gets shunned & excused away.
IT IS THERE, but people can manipulate that to deny or alter the meaning. (as they do w/ the homosexual condemnation verses too - as well as many others to suit their preferences).

2 Peter 3:16
as also in all [Paul's] letters, speaking in them of these things,
in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort (twist), as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.​

The Trinity is drawn right out for us - but it's something one has to collectively put together, and those who do, SEE & KNOW THE MYSTERY OF GOD in His true identity; which is somewhat veiled -- yet openly taught.

Ignorance is not rejection - there's a difference. No, people don't have to fully understand the Trinity - you don't have to even know Jesus is God to be of Him.
BUT ONCE YOU ARE SHOWN & TAUGHT, YOU CANNOT DENY AND REJECT HIS IDENTITY upon the revelation of it. That is a denial & rejection of His person and the written scriptures that do spell it out.

God's word is Spiritually Discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him;
and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.​

Mt. 16:
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"​

16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.​

John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
and I will raise him up on the last day.​

Matt. 16
[16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,
the Son of the living God."...]
20 Then He warned the disciples that they
should tell no one that He was the Christ.​

Luke 4:41
Demons also were coming out of many, shouting,
"You are the Son of God!" But rebuking them, He would not allow them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ.​

Luke 10:21
At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said,
"I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.​

Notice what the Sanhedrin are understanding of Jesus' claim in being "Son of God":​

Mat. 26
63 But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God:
Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." ​

64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?"

"He is worthy of death," they answered.
[*they blindfolded Jesus first*
Luke 22:64
They blindfolded him and demanded,
"Prophesy! Who hit you?"]
67 Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him
68 and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"​

From their understanding of His claim of being SON OF GOD - they're automatically tying in that He should be able to do something supernatural that normal people cannot do - there's an automatic understanding that His claim is to be linked with DEITY.
Not just that all followers of God are called 'sons of God' - they don't ask regular people who are 'sons of God' to prove they can do miracles...​

And other passages are showing us that Christ didn't want to be OPENLY identified earlier on in His ministry yet when He told certain people not go out & reveal His identity yet.
So there's a veiling/hiding going on during His ministry for awhile.​

DEITY is involved with the term "Son of God" - as being the lineage/of the order of GOD Himself. This page article goes into detail about the significance of the term was in their day and language​

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p211.html

I know this is 'all over the place' -- but the concept I'm relaying is that there's more going on here in the terminologies of their day and in Jesus' ministry (as we see antitrinitarians demanding "Show me where it comes right out and just says 'I JESUS, AM GOD'" or "if there's a Trinity, "Show me where the Bible says "I GOD, AM A TRINITY"' - ie. the WORD Trinity has to be there or else it's false ). The Bible is written in that it gives the GRADUAL REVELATION OF TRUTH over a span of thousands of years.

The Trinity/Deity of Christ ARE interwoven thruout it from OT to NT -- it's plainly given, yet there's a mystery within it - it's also veiled to where the Father Himself has to reveal His identity for us to accept Him for who He is.

And this is a strong reason why Christianity is the ONLY religion that embraces Christ AS GOD and a TRINITY!
No other religions accept that as true. WHY NOT?
Is it hidden from them?? I say yes, it is!

 

[Cris413]

Nadiine...

Teach it sister!

 

[Ben12]

I am not Mormon as you all know; but that does not mean everything the Mormons believe is false; with that being said.

If we are not children (sons) of God; then what are we? (Who are the morning stars; note plural. Jesus was called the Bright and morning star. (not the Book of Mormon); that would be my answer Job 38:6-8 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? I understand this does not fit a lot of old wine skins; but there is something here.

Son’s of God mentioned eleven times in the Bible without hardly digging past all the bad interpretations. You would have to do a pretty deep and lengthy study on the word Elohim; which I admit would be deep and fascinating. Sons of Elohim; son’s of God; yes that is what the scripture is saying; note Job 1:6.

Look a little deeper at Ps. 82 and notice how the word Elohim was used with both a capital G and lower case; same word same meaning both Strong’s 430 and this has happen all thought out the KJV and who know what other translation.

Ps 82:6-8 6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; (Elohim) you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." 8 Rise up, O God (Elohim) , judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.

Job1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God (Sons of Elohim) came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.



Son: Heb. OT:1121

ben (bane); from OT:1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., [like OT:1, OT:251, etc.]):

God:

OT:430

elohiym (el-o-heem'); plural of OT:433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: