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There is no Hell!

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Ben12

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Did I not point out that this alludes to the millennial reign? Doesn't Christ return to set up His kingdom for 1000 years? Then, after that, isn't Satan released from the abyss for one final show down, and it is then that the old heavens and old earth pass away, the Final Judgment happens; death, hades, and the unbelievers are thrown in the lake of fire and utterly destroyed, called the second death? These verses do NOT support your view. They simply expand on what will be done when Christ returns, which is, again, before the Final Judgment.
This cannot be true if you read what I posted on thread #76. that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. Does not sound like any millennial reign to me. Sounds like God's Kingdom.
 
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zerosaiyaman

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wow, I'm sorry, you're good at the Greek, huh? That's great, you have a good foundation.

Have you heard of the late William Barclay? He was a famous theologian, Greek scholar and translator, and, a universalist. Much of the early church believed in the salvation of all..

The Didascalia (the Catechetical school of Alexandria)
Pantaenus, first head of catechetical school at Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria, second head of catechetical school at Alexandria
Origen, greatest scholar of the early church
Athenasius, Archbishop of Alexandria
Didymus
Ambrose, Bishop
Ephraim
Chrysostum
Gregory of Nyssa, Bishop
Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop and President of the second Church council
Titus, Bishop of Bostra

These a just a few until Tertillian and Augustine came along. This is not just a new, end of days teaching.
So? These people could easily be mistaken. Where's the proof form the bible that the view is right? I don't care what the world has done or what mere men have taught. Give me God's word, that alone will I judge this matter from.

Do you know Thomas Jefferson? He was a founding father of the United States. Did you know how horrible his theology was, or how he cut out all the miraculous and prophetic from the bible because he didn't have the faith to believe God could do such things? Should we follow his example because he's a famous guy? I'm sorry, I don't have a "follow them because they are famous" mentality.
 
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zerosaiyaman

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This cannot be true if you read what I posted on thread #76. that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. Does not sound like any millennial reign to me. Sounds like God's Kingdom.
The millennial reign is God's kingdom come to earth. That sound exactly like the millennial reign spot on. I'm pretty sure the new heavens and new earth will be a tad different from that one--that one is the same as this one just more prosperous since Christ is here. Or do you think that when Christ is on earth again for 1000 years that it'll be the same dump it is now? Especially when it's stated that it won't, but that it'll be marvelous? Yet, still nothing compared to what's really going to come after the end of that. 1000 years isn't forever, it's after that that the forever of Christ's kingdom begins, with the bang of the destruction of all that is as we know it. That is definitely still as we know it.
 
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So? These people could easily be mistaken. Where's the proof form the bible that the view is right? I don't care what the world has done or what mere men have taught. Give me God's word, that alone will I judge this matter from.

Do you know Thomas Jefferson? He was a founding father of the United States. Did you know how horrible his theology was, or how he cut out all the miraculous and prophetic from the bible because he didn't have the faith to believe God could do such things? Should we follow his example because he's a famous guy? I'm sorry, I don't have a "follow them because they are famous" mentality.

Some of these people were taught directly by the Apostle John, who then went on to teach others. Do you mean to say he's wrong and we shouldn't listen to him?
 
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Ben12

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The millennial reign is God's kingdom come to earth. That sound exactly like the millennial reign spot on. I'm pretty sure the new heavens and new earth will be a tad different from that one--that one is the same as this one just more prosperous since Christ is here. Or do you think that when Christ is on earth again for 1000 years that it'll be the same dump it is now? Especially when it's stated that it won't, but that it'll be marvelous? Yet, still nothing compared to what's really going to come after the end of that. 1000 years isn't forever, it's after that that the forever of Christ's kingdom begins, with the bang of the destruction of all that is as we know it. That is definitely still as we know it.
Do you believe The Book of Revelations is literal or spiritual and if is literal where is your proof it is literal?
 
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Do you believe The Book of Revelations is literal or spiritual and if is literal where is your proof it is literal?
Why does it have to be exclusively spiritual or literal? For such an awesome book as you believe it to be, why can God not have it be both? I know that context is important, but here's something really interesting, scripture can have more than one meaning! So why is it impossible for Revelations to be both? Context is important, and it is why it should be carefully evaluated. What God is saying is what he says, he could be speaking in a literal sense, as well as a spiritual sense. It can be both ways, but it can't be ignored as to what it is. It's one thing to have to decide what a scripture means either in a literal or spiritual sense, but the thing is you can't just absolve the entirety of it from being placed correctly into context. To absolve it from both is a fallacy, but to say it cannot contain both is a blunder.
 
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Ben12

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Why does it have to be exclusively spiritual or literal?
I do not believe for a moment is a mixture of both spiritual and literal. Revelations is a book of symbolism; and is not literal. Yes there are literal Churches or assemblies; but there is a deep spiritual hidden message under the surface. Look closely at that first chapter and there are all kinds of foundations that establish revelations in this context. Many brother’s in the Lord try to spiritualize one part of Revelations, and then they will literalize another section when it fits their understanding; I see it totally as a spiritual book even when I am unsure of some of its meaning. Book of Revelations is the Revelation’s of Jesus Christ with in us; not without.



Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

I truly believe God’s Word is hidden for many reasons; that is why there are so many creed, religion and understandings in the Bible. If it were possible I believe if man could put the understandings in full understanding of the Book of Revelations in writing it would fill a library. When I see a symbol and apply to Revelations it needs to be used over and over again thought out the Bible; the lampstand is one small example: What an important symbol and I believe it has much to do with Isaiah 11:2 and the seven spirits of God that God has ordained to give us understanding.

The lamp stand was a piece of furniture that was in the Tabernacle in the wilderness as well as both temples. Like all the furniture in the temple there was always a much deeper and awesome meaning. I am just going to touch on a few thought I thought were interesting. So often God hides his glory from carnal man by types, shadows, parables, mysteries and hidden manna.

Lamp stand was made by beaten gold; that is the craftsman would literally beat the gold to desired shape. It takes heat and fire to purify many different precious metals; gold (Devine life); silver (redemption); brass (judgment); iron (will) and many other precious stones that are found in our earth; One Biblical exception is a pearl; the only jewel that comes from life.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall
suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The lamp had seven staffs attached to one staff; symbolic of seven spirits of God in Isaiah 11:2; but one God. Isaiah 11:2. Fire comes from the Greek word “pur” which we get our English word pure, purify, purge and purgatory and is symbolic of the purging power of Holy Spirit.

Everyday the priest would have to immerse the lamp in olive oil (symbolic of God’s anointing) and light the lamp with fire.

Then the light was placed in the Holy Place for light. The first court or the outer court had no lamp but was lit by the sun by day; but at night there was no lamp. The Holy of Holies also had no lamp either; for God’s Glory would be all the light it needed on the day of atonement.
 
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zerosaiyaman

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Some of these people were taught directly by the Apostle John, who then went on to teach others. Do you mean to say he's wrong and we shouldn't listen to him?
Why then didn't John write about it in the scriptures? This is hearsay, not scriptural. Sorry, I don't follow what someone says if it's against the bible straight on. There's plenty of people like that around, far more than there are Christians, mind you. And how many people held the other view in that day? How many people have in the church created horrible views and false doctrines, aren't we warned against that? And in fact, along with that warning, doesn't it say to protect ourselves we must judge everything by the Word?
 
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zerosaiyaman

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Do you believe The Book of Revelations is literal or spiritual and if is literal where is your proof it is literal?
There are places that are both. Isn't that obvious? A giant mountain, all aflame, falling to the earth, hitting th seas and wiping out 1/3rd of sea life. That's an asteroid my friend, and that is very much real and literal. Then there are other things, like the 200 million demons who were like horsemen. They weren't really, but there's plenty of "like"s and "as"s to signify he's being metaphorical. John, like any mortal has a limited vocabulary and that has to be taken into account when describing events beyond one's very frame of reference. What he saw is obviously literal however, as he saw it happen.

And even then! What about all the other books of the bible that talk about the judgment of the wicked, their destruction, them being blotted out? And still, STILL, you can produce no verse that directly says the unrighteous will be purified by the second death or fire or whatever and be saved. Instead, all the scriptures say you are saved by Christ's sacrifice alone. This is Revelation aside, and even if you include Revelation, it only affirms those views and reiterates them once again, literal or figurative or spiritual, it all means the same thing.

A figurative/spiritual fire that destroys and kills the soul still destroys and kills. It kills, it doesn't purify;sorry, that's what's written.
 
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This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

Not a book of prophecy? Then what exactly is this passage talking about?

Revelation 15:1 NIV

1I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.

If that's not talking about a future event, then point to me what it means spiritually.
 
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Ben12

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Why does it have to be exclusively spiritual or literal? For such an awesome book as you believe it to be, why can God not have it be both? I know that context is important, but here's something really interesting, scripture can have more than one meaning! So why is it impossible for Revelations to be both? Context is important, and it is why it should be carefully evaluated. What God is saying is what he says, he could be speaking in a literal sense, as well as a spiritual sense. It can be both ways, but it can't be ignored as to what it is. It's one thing to have to decide what a scripture means either in a literal or spiritual sense, but the thing is you can't just absolve the entirety of it from being placed correctly into context. To absolve it from both is a fallacy, but to say it cannot contain both is a blunder.
Also let us not forget John was in Spirit on the Lords day; show me the scriptural proof that revelations should somehow be interpreted literally/carnally? Or as a mixture of spiritual and literals as you believe is true?

Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
 
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Also let us not forget John was in Spirit on the Lords day; show me the scriptural proof that revelations should somehow be interpreted literally/carnally? Or as a mixture of spiritual and literals as you believe is true?

Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
So that automatically means some of what he saw couldn't have been literal events?
 
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zerosaiyaman

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Also let us not forget John was in Spirit on the Lords day; show me the scriptural proof that revelations should somehow be interpreted literally/carnally? Or as a mixture of spiritual and literals as you believe is true?

Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Hm, didn't I already prove that to you when showing the prophesy from Isaiah about Isreal being restored as a nation in a day? Or what about when Isaiah prophesies about Cyrus the Mede and what he would do 200+ years before the man's birth? Prophesies about him by name? Isn't that more than a tad literal? In fact, there is no prophesy that hasn't come to pass except those about the end times, and all those prophesies that I know of happened literally. Look at all the prophesies about the Messiah that He had to fulfill to be able to be the Messiah, and He had to do so literally. Be born of a virgin, in Bethlehem, be crucified, not have any bones broken (as was the common practice by the romans back then when a person was taking too long to die), have his side pierced, have his clothes be gambled over for money, etc etc etc. All of these prophesies were totally literal.

Take the judgment prophesies on Israel, Egypt, Amon, Moab, and such too. All of them were literal and happened. The prophesies about Babylon and the judgments on Babylon? All literal. So far, God's batting average for literal prophesy seems to be 100%, though of course there may be metaphorical ones too which I do not know, but I know a ton that were literal.

And taken up in the spirit? Now, if you were being teleported (either in spirit, which is most likely, or totally in flesh) from some little island where you've been in exile for so many years and thrown into heavenly places and the far flung future to witness events you could never have even imagined in your wildest dreams.. and all this by God.. Wow, I would call it being taken up in the spirit too. I think John puts it very eloquently.
 
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zerosaiyaman

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Also let us not forget John was in Spirit on the Lords day; show me the scriptural proof that revelations should somehow be interpreted literally/carnally? Or as a mixture of spiritual and literals as you believe is true?

Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Sorry, got cut off before I really answered you correctly. And didn't I already show such proof that Revelation should be taken as a mixture? I already showed you the prophesy that absolutely describes an asteroid strike on earth. How could that be metaphorical about spiritual matters! And a comet strike. And the beast, the sign of the beast, the sores on their body and how horrible it would be.. water turning to blood, the oceans then the rivers.. Hey, God's done it before, is it so surprising? Earthquakes, etc etc. You'd never be able to put them all into anything but literal contexts, as they are talking about literal events and happenings that affect the very planet, plant and animal life, not just people and their souls.

Oh, and, don't you remember those passages in Revelation about the people not repenting even as the bowl judgments came, and them still carrying on in their evil and every perversion? God doesn't put that so kindly does He? He tries to get their attention to save them, as if there was nothing to save them from there'd be no point of all of this, now would there be? And if God can dispense such judgments just to try to get people to repent, what will He do to those who don't repent in the end? Maybe He'll do what He says He'll do. Is that such a hard concept?
 
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Ben12

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Not a book of prophecy? Then what exactly is this passage talking about?

Revelation 15:1 NIV

1I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.

If that's not talking about a future event, then point to me what it means spiritually.
Revelations is as I quoted before the revelation or unveiling of Jesus Chrsit.

Rev. 15:1"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." (Revelation 15:1). After making mention of this "sign in heaven," John proceeds with a brief summarization of the victory of the overcomers, as if to say, "Let these points be strong in your vision, before I tell you of the plagues." These will be the "last plagues," as with them God's wrath, His indignation against all unrighteousness, is finished, reaches its climax, and is ended.
"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire." This was first mentioned in Revelation 4:6, "And before the throne was a sea of glass like unto crystal." But now there is an added qualification, "mingled with fire." Truly the overcomer can stand thereon, because the cleansing of His consuming fire has done its work within. There is no negative reaction to the fire. There is no fear of exposure, or scrutiny. While it is written, "There is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known," (Matthew 10:26), yet these can be transparent before all, and stand unashamed. When everything within us is pure, as He is pure, let the unveilings take place-- we can stand upon the sea of glass, and rejoice that we have been made partakers of His righteousness.
"And I saw... them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."
"The song of Moses," was a song of deliverance, exalting the power of God, magnifying the One who brought them through in victory. "Then sang Moses... this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for He hath triumphed gloriously... The Lord is my strength and my song, and He is become my salvation: He is my God... Who is like unto Thee, O Lord, among the gods ? Who is like unto Thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders..." (Exodus 15:1-2, 11).
"And the song of the Lamb." Now the song expands to another dimension, for the Lamb is the REDEEMER of all men, and He sings of the totality of salvation for all mankind. "All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, O Lord; and shall glorify Thy name. For Thou art great, and doest wondrous things: Thou art God alone." (Psalm 86:9-10).
"And all flesh shall come to worship before Me, saith the Lord." (Isaiah 66:23).
"For He will famish all the gods of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the heathen." (Zephaniah 2:11).
"Saying, Great and marvelous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints. Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou only art holy: For all nations shall come and worship before Thee; for Thy judgments are made manifest."
Yes, the first fruits sing of victory over the beast, his mark, his image, his number. They exalt the One who has brought them into this deliverance. But then they go on to prophetically sing of the ultimate, that "ALL NATIONS shall come and worship before Thee." It is not just our deliverance-- it is what He has purposed for ALL men everywhere, including the far off isles of the sea.
With this VICTORY clearly in focus, let the outworking of it begin! "I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened." Out of this purified, qualified, holy temple of His dwelling, proceeds the ministry. The messengers are "clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles." Such oneness with the holiness and divine nature of God, their ministry is totally righteous, executing the will of God to perfection.
"And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."
"If you walk contrary unto Me, and will not hearken unto Me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. - I will walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins." (Leviticus 26:21, 24).
The certainty of justice and correction is sure-- not as a negative whipping as payment for sin, but as a chastening to teach, a discipline to learn-- "For when Thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." (Isaiah 26:9). The process is not an end in itself, but the means to an end-- through all the judgments a vital correction is made, bringing forth a "godly sorrow that worketh repentance to salvation." (2 Corinthians 7:10). His judgments do not save us, but they condition and prepare us to receive HIM who is our Salvation. They cause us to turn to the Lord in repentance, and we find He has been drawing us to Himself through it all.
So great is His glory and power that fills the temple, that no man can enter until their sevenfold cleansing is complete. This was prefigured in the early church, "And of the rest durst no man join himself to them..." (Acts 5:13). When GOD'S HOLINESS fills the temple, no man will be able to enter and retain his filthy garments. "Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness." (Matthew 22:12-13). The standard is not lowered to accommodate the world. The purgings will intensify until all are clean, clothed with His righteousness, and ready to be received by Christ.
"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." (Revelation 16:1). Then follows the plagues of purification. They correspond to that which we saw in the ministry of the seven trumpets, and are also prefigured in the plagues that came upon Egypt.
While the processings might be severe, yet "I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because Thou hast judged thus." - "And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgments." (Revelation 16:5, 7).
Truly we can bear witness, "He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He." (Deuteronomy 32:4).
Moffatt's translation reads: "Steadfast -He rules aright, HIS METHODS ARE IN ORDER DUE, a God trusty and wholly true, upright and honest." While Ferrar Fenton adds the thought, "ALL HIS LINES ARE STRAIGHT."
What a declaration! His work is perfect, all His lines are straight, His methods are in due order, all that He does is RIGHT! Therefore it rightly follows, "All His ways are judgment." Everything He does is to bring about a restoration and setting right that which has been perverted, distorted, defiled, etc. HE IS OUR GOD OF SALVATION! Were He to draw a line in your life, it would be a straight line-- and that means you would be brought into alignment with that uprightness. "I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a Father to Israel." (Jeremiah 31:9). All of His methods, His workings, are in proper order, proper time, perfect sequence, as He steadily draws you to Himself.
So long has Christendom programmed their doctrines with a negative view, that to read of the pouring out of the plagues brings a shudder, a fear, for all they see is calamity and distress, while actually God has promised the opposite. Full well He knows the propensity of humanity to do evil. He knows of the self-will and rebellion, that we have "turned every one to his own way." But He also has promised, "I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them." (Isaiah 42:16).
So ingrained is the self-will and rebellion of man, that the first strokes of judgment only harden them in their waywardness. "And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give Him glory." Yet even in their cursing they are forced to acknowledge that the Almighty God was in control, He had "power over the plagues." They blaspheme God in a reaction to their pain and distress. But while the wrath of God is love's severity, yet it remains purest love, seeking the ultimate good for creation, and so it continues to apply the strokes of chastisement. Repentance will come, but how great is the need for the inworking of His judgments, until that submission comes.
 
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zerosaiyaman

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Revelations is as I quoted before the revelation or unveiling of Jesus Chrsit.

Rev. 15:1"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." (Revelation 15:1). After making mention of this "sign in heaven," John proceeds with a brief summarization of the victory of the overcomers, as if to say, "Let these points be strong in your vision, before I tell you of the plagues." These will be the "last plagues," as with them God's wrath, His indignation against all unrighteousness, is finished, reaches its climax, and is ended.
"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire." This was first mentioned in Revelation 4:6, "And before the throne was a sea of glass like unto crystal." But now there is an added qualification, "mingled with fire." Truly the overcomer can stand thereon, because the cleansing of His consuming fire has done its work within. There is no negative reaction to the fire. There is no fear of exposure, or scrutiny. While it is written, "There is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known," (Matthew 10:26), yet these can be transparent before all, and stand unashamed. When everything within us is pure, as He is pure, let the unveilings take place-- we can stand upon the sea of glass, and rejoice that we have been made partakers of His righteousness.
"And I saw... them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."
"The song of Moses," was a song of deliverance, exalting the power of God, magnifying the One who brought them through in victory. "Then sang Moses... this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for He hath triumphed gloriously... The Lord is my strength and my song, and He is become my salvation: He is my God... Who is like unto Thee, O Lord, among the gods ? Who is like unto Thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders..." (Exodus 15:1-2, 11).
"And the song of the Lamb." Now the song expands to another dimension, for the Lamb is the REDEEMER of all men, and He sings of the totality of salvation for all mankind. "All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, O Lord; and shall glorify Thy name. For Thou art great, and doest wondrous things: Thou art God alone." (Psalm 86:9-10).
"And all flesh shall come to worship before Me, saith the Lord." (Isaiah 66:23).
"For He will famish all the gods of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the heathen." (Zephaniah 2:11).
"Saying, Great and marvelous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints. Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou only art holy: For all nations shall come and worship before Thee; for Thy judgments are made manifest."
Yes, the first fruits sing of victory over the beast, his mark, his image, his number. They exalt the One who has brought them into this deliverance. But then they go on to prophetically sing of the ultimate, that "ALL NATIONS shall come and worship before Thee." It is not just our deliverance-- it is what He has purposed for ALL men everywhere, including the far off isles of the sea.
With this VICTORY clearly in focus, let the outworking of it begin! "I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened." Out of this purified, qualified, holy temple of His dwelling, proceeds the ministry. The messengers are "clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles." Such oneness with the holiness and divine nature of God, their ministry is totally righteous, executing the will of God to perfection.
"And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."
"If you walk contrary unto Me, and will not hearken unto Me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. - I will walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins." (Leviticus 26:21, 24).
The certainty of justice and correction is sure-- not as a negative whipping as payment for sin, but as a chastening to teach, a discipline to learn-- "For when Thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." (Isaiah 26:9). The process is not an end in itself, but the means to an end-- through all the judgments a vital correction is made, bringing forth a "godly sorrow that worketh repentance to salvation." (2 Corinthians 7:10). His judgments do not save us, but they condition and prepare us to receive HIM who is our Salvation. They cause us to turn to the Lord in repentance, and we find He has been drawing us to Himself through it all.
So great is His glory and power that fills the temple, that no man can enter until their sevenfold cleansing is complete. This was prefigured in the early church, "And of the rest durst no man join himself to them..." (Acts 5:13). When GOD'S HOLINESS fills the temple, no man will be able to enter and retain his filthy garments. "Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness." (Matthew 22:12-13). The standard is not lowered to accommodate the world. The purgings will intensify until all are clean, clothed with His righteousness, and ready to be received by Christ.
"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." (Revelation 16:1). Then follows the plagues of purification. They correspond to that which we saw in the ministry of the seven trumpets, and are also prefigured in the plagues that came upon Egypt.
While the processings might be severe, yet "I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because Thou hast judged thus." - "And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgments." (Revelation 16:5, 7).
Truly we can bear witness, "He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He." (Deuteronomy 32:4).
Moffatt's translation reads: "Steadfast -He rules aright, HIS METHODS ARE IN ORDER DUE, a God trusty and wholly true, upright and honest." While Ferrar Fenton adds the thought, "ALL HIS LINES ARE STRAIGHT."
What a declaration! His work is perfect, all His lines are straight, His methods are in due order, all that He does is RIGHT! Therefore it rightly follows, "All His ways are judgment." Everything He does is to bring about a restoration and setting right that which has been perverted, distorted, defiled, etc. HE IS OUR GOD OF SALVATION! Were He to draw a line in your life, it would be a straight line-- and that means you would be brought into alignment with that uprightness. "I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a Father to Israel." (Jeremiah 31:9). All of His methods, His workings, are in proper order, proper time, perfect sequence, as He steadily draws you to Himself.
So long has Christendom programmed their doctrines with a negative view, that to read of the pouring out of the plagues brings a shudder, a fear, for all they see is calamity and distress, while actually God has promised the opposite. Full well He knows the propensity of humanity to do evil. He knows of the self-will and rebellion, that we have "turned every one to his own way." But He also has promised, "I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them." (Isaiah 42:16).
So ingrained is the self-will and rebellion of man, that the first strokes of judgment only harden them in their waywardness. "And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give Him glory." Yet even in their cursing they are forced to acknowledge that the Almighty God was in control, He had "power over the plagues." They blaspheme God in a reaction to their pain and distress. But while the wrath of God is love's severity, yet it remains purest love, seeking the ultimate good for creation, and so it continues to apply the strokes of chastisement. Repentance will come, but how great is the need for the inworking of His judgments, until that submission comes.
Never in Revelation does it say they repent, but the opposite. And what about what it says about all those who take the name of the beast and worship his image? What does that verse say? That they will be utterly destroyed. Not transformed, not repent, but destroyed. Don't you know that even demons have to bow before Jesus and confess He is God? Why? Not because they repent of their ways, but because they must acknowledge that God is sovereign and they are not. "Just and true are your ways!" the angels sing in Revelation, and does not the angel who has charge over the rivers and the streams declare how just and mighty God's wrath is to turn them all to blood?

And oh, you even speak against your own ideas! And I saw... them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb." Again, this is another qualifier verse that has narrowed out who will be there! What about those who did not overcome? What is their fate? We know it, it's stated in Revelation and countless other places in the bible. Destruction, to be blotted out and remembered no more, the second death.

Never, in all these quotes of your's, is your beliefs supported man. Can't you see the obvious? No where are these verses you are giving extra meaning to actually saying, at all, that people will be purified and made pure by these judgments, only by the Blood of the Lamb. NO WHERE, does it say judgments are used to purify people and sanctify them. You are not made righteous by going through judgments, only via the Blood of the Lamb! Those who reject that blood have no hope.

And now, you're taking it as literal as you choose because, well, we have you cornered and you have no arguments you can lean on, so you try to use the Word.. the very Word you've been trying to decry the relevance of! You're making stuff up that isn't said in the scriptures. I speak only what they say. The scriptures themselves declare the opposite of what you say--the people of those days do not all repent, but Christ returns and at least they have 1000 years (those that survived the judgments anyways, which is not many) to think it over.

Nothing here nullifies all the other verses of the bible, but only complements them. Nothing here says sinners are given anything but destruction. Nothing there says they will enter heaven, but the opposite, cast into the "outermost darkness". The only way to wash one's garments clean is in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 7:13-14 "Then one of the elders asked me, 'These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?' I answered, 'Sir, you know.' And he said, 'These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb'" [emphasis mine].
Not washed white due to the tribulation or the punishments or anything else, but only in the blood of the Lamb. Only, only, only, Only, in the blood of the Lamb are we made spotless and by No Other! How many times is that proclaimed in the gospels?! How many times does Paul say it? Come on people, it's a no brainer. No where is any other way stated, no where is it said anything but the destruction of the wicked. The righteous, those who have accepted Christ are refined through discipline,but that's reserved for them, and if it's a prerequisite that you be Christ's for you to experience his discipline, then what does that mean for those who reject Him?

I've gotta go to bed. I pray for you and those you will effect with these unbiblical teachings, that they may not suffer in the wine presses of the wrath of the Lord, stored up and ready for that terrible day as is written. (and may I make a final note? I have answered every question and challenge posed me, but so far you, Ben, have not been able to answer mine, only deferring to SoundCard. Who has proof, actual tangible foundations upon which they are basing their arguments--you or me? May the scriptures and God Himself by our judge.)
 
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