There is no Hell!

[zerosaiyaman]

You have made a good point, but in other places in the bible it is given in parabols. It may very well be true the God will bring the condemed back to life, as a part of their punishment. The word "fire" and other words like it, are often used parabolically to mean judgement. We do not worship a God who is without mercy or who tortures people for all eternity.

And therefore you make God sound like He's impotent and unjust. Unable to enact justice despite the fact He promises to do so at the time of judgment. God has given us more grace and mercy than we could ever imagine in just allowing us to live. In sacrificing His son. In giving us His word. He has every right to destroy us for our transgressions--don't think so highly of yourself that it is somehow wrong if God did so. We are a race that not only rebelled and revels in every perversion, but we murdered the Son of God himself. There is no higher crime than a creation to kill its creator. God is holy holy holy. You cannot erase sin through pain and fire, that is why Christ had to come and shed His blood. Otherwise there'd be no reason for what God did.

God’s people are so concerned about the sinner; they do not understand the ultimate purpose of what God is doing; the priesthood. The below listed scripture to me says it all; don’t even give me in context argument because the context is totally contained within these few words. There are many scriptures that declare the salvation of all; but God’s people are so in tuned to hear Baby lon and condemnation instead a decision by God.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)
It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

For all those who accept it. Shall we not look one verse before your quote?

Romans 5:17 (NIV)
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." [emphasis added]

If everyone got it, you wouldn't have to receive. The offer has been given to all, that is what the verses you quote are clear about, but if one doesn't receive the offer, they don't gain the gift. It's as simple as that. Otherwise, you make a mockery of many more verses. What about when God separates the sheep from the goats, or all the other many judgment passages? Not a single one, not one, has any reference to the judgment being temporary, but rather absolute and eternal. You cannot make doctrine on one verse.

And again, you have the problem of why would God sacrifice Himself for us if we would ultimately be purified through fire in this purgatory? The idea alone makes a mockery of Christ and the cross, as neither have any point if all are saved no matter what for simply being.. what? Even if you say all have been saved through Christ, it makes a mockery of faith, as Romans 5:1says "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"

And again, what about the Book of Life? That all who sin have their names blotted from it, but that only those who trust in Christ (only those) have their name written in His book of life from which they can never be erased. And then, these books of life only come into play at the final judgment, which is when the Lake of Fire is made. Realize, you cannot scrub ancient greek words (I minored in ancient greek, thank you) and say, "since puros is the ancient greek for fire, they really mean pure and to purify!" No! Puros is the ancient greek for "fire". If the bible had ment pure, it would have used katharos (pure) or kathairo (purify). It didn't, it used puros, and that means fire, no matter how the etiology of our word pure can from that word thousands of years later.

What about Mark 9:48? And the verses before that? Enter into the Kingdom, or be thrown into hell. It isn't "enter the kingdom immediately or be thrown into hell and enter the kingdom later".

What what about this verse which makes it oh so clear, Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Why give such a warning if it isn't real? And last time I checked, destroyed isn't something that's temporary. And the greek there is apolesai, which is a form of apolluo and means to destroy, ruin, kill.

What of 2 Peter 2:4-9 "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, was continuing their punishment."

What of Luke 16:19-31 (too long to type here)? That parable makes it very clear that there is no coming back. And if there was coming back, then why do we worry for the sinner? Why do we preach? If it's all moot now and there is no Hell, then there is no reason to preach for there is nothing eternal to save people from!

 

[Ben12]

Shoel and Hades are the holding place of souls. THey are referred to as the "underworld" sometimes as "a bosom" or "a resting place." These are the places where the souls go after departing from earth. Hell is simply another name given to it (in English). There are different parts to hell. All of hell is not burning fire, and all of hell is not full with evil people. However there is a place in hell which is bad....

There are other translations like the Companion Bible King James Version, American Standard Version (1901), the Newberry Reference Bible (Still published by Kregal Publications), and the Riverside New Testament by Ballantine (1934) which contain footnotes, marginal readings and appendages which point out that several key Greek and Hebrew words regarding Hell have been MIStranslated by such Bible versions as the King James Bible. I have a list of Bibles which show the translations that contain the word Hell as well as the ones that don’t in the text is NOT exhaustive--we are discovering more translations all the time in which the translators did not feel justified in using the Teutonic pagan word Hell to translate the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek words Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus.

​

You are on the right track but actually the word is not in the Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic the language the Bible was written in; but it comes from an Angle Saxon word “hel” meaning to bury. It is more then a mis-translation it a premeditated deliberate assault on scripture to in introduce the Teutonic pagan word

Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)

Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament

She-ol (eol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead Note: translated in KJV about haft of scriptures as hell, the other haft as grave
Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the gospel. This is the word the fundamental preachers love to use to burn up the sinner. They are the first to yell foul if something does not fit in context; BUT: Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified bf God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER”.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.​

​

Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.




Isaiah 30:33
Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze.

Jeremiah 7:31-32
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Jeremiah 19:13-15
The houses in Jerusalem and those of the kings of Judah will be defiled like this place, Topheth—all the houses where they burned incense on the roofs to all the starry hosts and poured out drink offerings to other gods.' "

Jeremiah then returned from Topheth, where the LORD had sent him to prophesy, and stood in the court of the LORD's temple and said to all the people, "This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: 'Listen! I am going to bring on this city and the villages around it every disaster I pronounced against them, because they were stiff-necked and would not listen to my words.' "

That is Gehenna Judgment that Jesus came and warned Israel about.

Matthew 23:29-39

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate.For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'

Jeremiah 7:33-34
" 'The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.

Do you see it? This is the Judgment of Gehenna against Israel and all who persist in unbelief. However; although this happens it is not the end. God through Jesus, is restoring Israel, but not the natural nation but a spiritual nation of all mankind. All have sinned, none are righteous, no not one. All have been disobedient and therefore mercy is over them all.

Jeremiah 27:22
'They will be taken to Babylon and there they will remain until the day I come for them,' declares the LORD. 'Then I will bring them back and restore them to this place.' "

Jeremiah 30:18
"This is what the LORD says: " 'I will restore the fortunes of Jacob's tents and have compassion on his dwellings; the city will be rebuilt on her ruins, and the palace will stand in its proper place.

Jeremiah 33:11
the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices of bride and bridegroom, and the voices of those who bring thank offerings to the house of the LORD, saying, "Give thanks to the LORD Almighty, for the LORD is good; his love endures forever." For I will restore the fortunes of the land as they were before,' says the LORD.

 

[Ben12]

And therefore you make God sound like He's impotent and unjust. Unable to enact justice despite the fact He promises to do so at the time of judgment. God has given us more grace and mercy than we could ever imagine in just allowing us to live. In sacrificing His son. In giving us His word. He has every right to destroy us for our transgressions--don't think so highly of yourself that it is somehow wrong if God did so. We are a race that not only rebelled and revels in every perversion, but we murdered the Son of God himself. There is no higher crime than a creation to kill its creator. God is holy holy holy. You cannot erase sin through pain and fire, that is why Christ had to come and shed His blood. Otherwise there'd be no reason for what God did.



For all those who accept it. Shall we not look one verse before your quote?

Romans 5:17 (NIV)
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." [emphasis added]

If everyone got it, you wouldn't have to receive. The offer has been given to all, that is what the verses you quote are clear about, but if one doesn't receive the offer, they don't gain the gift. It's as simple as that. Otherwise, you make a mockery of many more verses. What about when God separates the sheep from the goats, or all the other many judgment passages? Not a single one, not one, has any reference to the judgment being temporary, but rather absolute and eternal. You cannot make doctrine on one verse.

And again, you have the problem of why would God sacrifice Himself for us if we would ultimately be purified through fire in this purgatory? The idea alone makes a mockery of Christ and the cross, as neither have any point if all are saved no matter what for simply being.. what? Even if you say all have been saved through Christ, it makes a mockery of faith, as Romans 5:1says "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"

And again, what about the Book of Life? That all who sin have their names blotted from it, but that only those who trust in Christ (only those) have their name written in His book of life from which they can never be erased. And then, these books of life only come into play at the final judgment, which is when the Lake of Fire is made. Realize, you cannot scrub ancient greek words (I minored in ancient greek, thank you) and say, "since puros is the ancient greek for fire, they really mean pure and to purify!" No! Puros is the ancient greek for "fire". If the bible had ment pure, it would have used katharos (pure) or kathairo (purify). It didn't, it used puros, and that means fire, no matter how the etiology of our word pure can from that word thousands of years later.

What about Mark 9:48? And the verses before that? Enter into the Kingdom, or be thrown into hell. It isn't "enter the kingdom immediately or be thrown into hell and enter the kingdom later".

What what about this verse which makes it oh so clear, Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Why give such a warning if it isn't real? And last time I checked, destroyed isn't something that's temporary. And the greek there is apolesai, which is a form of apolluo and means to destroy, ruin, kill.

What of 2 Peter 2:4-9 "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, was continuing their punishment."

What of Luke 16:19-31 (too long to type here)? That parable makes it very clear that there is no coming back. And if there was coming back, then why do we worry for the sinner? Why do we preach? If it's all moot now and there is no Hell, then there is no reason to preach for there is nothing eternal to save people from!

Let us start with the sheep and goats; these subjects are far too deep to give me a laundry list and expect me to spend hours addressing each issue; I just don’t have what it takes to handle multiple spiritual questions. First of all let me say I believe God’s word is totally inspired by the Spirit of Truth; I also believe there are many ways of approaching its reality. One of these ways is though the tradition of religion; another is by the letter that killeth (literal); but the scripture declares is the Spirit of Truth will lead us and guide us into all truth. Is truth mere puppeting the traditions of the past; or does God have something to say to us now by His deep and abiding truth in scripture?

Sheep Separated from Goats​

Matt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divided his sheep from the goats:


Here is an example of a proven well established doctrine that holds little reality when you put it to a test. First using established symbolisms found and grounded in God’s Word. A goat as well is as a sheep are clean and used hundreds of places in the OT for sacrifices in the temple and out of the temple. In verse 41 of this chapter the established truth is the goats cursed, into everlasting fire. That would make more sense if the animal was pig (unclean animal)

The word sheep here is very relevant in that Jesus used it in other verses like My Sheep know my voice. A sheep is a full grow mature sheep.

Where on the other hand a goat or the Greek word (eriphos or kid; baby goat) So I see it as God separating his Sheep mature from His immature kids; spiritually speaking)
NT:2056

But according to these bias translators God is going (kid) to send a baby goat to everlasting fire.

Matt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Sheep Separated from Goats

Matthew 25 Wycliffe 32 and all folks shall be gathered before him, and he shall
separate them atwain, as a shepherd separateth sheep from kids [and he shall part
them atwain, as a shepherd parteth sheep from kids];
33 and he shall set the sheep on his right half, and the kids on the left half
[and the kids forsooth on his left half].
34 Then the king shall say to them, that shall be on his right half, Come ye,
the blessed of my Father, take ye in possession the kingdom made ready to you
from the making of the world [Come ye, the blessed of my Father, wield ye, or
take ye in possession, the kingdom made ready to you from the beginning, or making,
of the world].

 

[GuardianShua]

There are other translations like the Companion Bible King James Version, American Standard Version (1901), the Newberry Reference Bible (Still published by Kregal Publications), and the Riverside New Testament by Ballantine (1934) which contain footnotes, marginal readings and appendages which point out that several key Greek and Hebrew words regarding Hell have been MIStranslated by such Bible versions as the King James Bible. I have a list of Bibles which show the translations that contain the word Hell as well as the ones that don’t in the text is NOT exhaustive--we are discovering more translations all the time in which the translators did not feel justified in using the Teutonic pagan word Hell to translate the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek words Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus.

​

You are on the right track but actually the word is not in the Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic the language the Bible was written in; but it comes from an Angle Saxon word “hel” meaning to bury. It is more then a mis-translation it a premeditated deliberate assault on scripture to in introduce the Teutonic pagan word

Tar-ta-rus (tart rs) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1 an infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils not people. (mentioned only once in the Bible)

Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a) the home of the dead, beneath the earth b) the god of the underworld 2 Bible the state or resting place of the dead: name used in some modern translations of the New Testament

She-ol (eol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] a place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead Note: translated in KJV about haft of scriptures as hell, the other haft as grave
Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the gospel. This is the word the fundamental preachers love to use to burn up the sinner. They are the first to yell foul if something does not fit in context; BUT: Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified bf God’s holy judgment. This word is used not for sinner, murders or liars; it is used with the word “BROTHER”.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.
​

Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.




Isaiah 30:33
Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze.

Jeremiah 7:31-32
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Jeremiah 19:13-15
The houses in Jerusalem and those of the kings of Judah will be defiled like this place, Topheth—all the houses where they burned incense on the roofs to all the starry hosts and poured out drink offerings to other gods.' "

Jeremiah then returned from Topheth, where the LORD had sent him to prophesy, and stood in the court of the LORD's temple and said to all the people, "This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: 'Listen! I am going to bring on this city and the villages around it every disaster I pronounced against them, because they were stiff-necked and would not listen to my words.' "

That is Gehenna Judgment that Jesus came and warned Israel about.

Matthew 23:29-39

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate.For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'

Jeremiah 7:33-34
" 'The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.

Do you see it? This is the Judgment of Gehenna against Israel and all who persist in unbelief. However; although this happens it is not the end. God through Jesus, is restoring Israel, but not the natural nation but a spiritual nation of all mankind. All have sinned, none are righteous, no not one. All have been disobedient and therefore mercy is over them all.

Jeremiah 27:22
'They will be taken to Babylon and there they will remain until the day I come for them,' declares the LORD. 'Then I will bring them back and restore them to this place.' "

Jeremiah 30:18
"This is what the LORD says: " 'I will restore the fortunes of Jacob's tents and have compassion on his dwellings; the city will be rebuilt on her ruins, and the palace will stand in its proper place.

Jeremiah 33:11
the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices of bride and bridegroom, and the voices of those who bring thank offerings to the house of the LORD, saying, "Give thanks to the LORD Almighty, for the LORD is good; his love endures forever." For I will restore the fortunes of the land as they were before,' says the LORD.

Keep up the good work.

 

[GuardianShua]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelTheeArchAngel
You have made a good point, but in other places in the bible it is given in parabols. It may very well be true the God will bring the condemed back to life, as a part of their punishment. The word "fire" and other words like it, are often used parabolically to mean judgement. We do not worship a God who is without mercy or who tortures people for all eternity.

Quote from Zero: And therefore you make God sound like He's impotent and unjust. Unable to enact justice despite the fact He promises to do so at the time of judgment. God has given us more grace and mercy than we could ever imagine in just allowing us to live. In sacrificing His son. In giving us His word. He has every right to destroy us for our transgressions--don't think so highly of yourself that it is somehow wrong if God did so. We are a race that not only rebelled and revels in every perversion, but we murdered the Son of God himself. There is no higher crime than a creation to kill its creator. God is holy holy holy. You cannot erase sin through pain and fire, that is why Christ had to come and shed His blood. Otherwise there'd be no reason for what God did./// My reply to Zero: I dont know what it is that your thinking. I have not put any words into Gods mouth. I am only pointing out that the word "Hell," and others like it, are not correctly TRANSLATED.

 

[Brucea]

Jesus spoke of a place were the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched.

Clearly those who do not live in righteousness will go there.

Or may be we shall claim Jesus is a liar! God help us.

The KJV is so messed up that it can't be trusted??

Come now and leave your folly! Hell burns hot and the fire is not quenched. It is made for the devil and his team. If the devil remains your father you will go to his final home with him!

If we just twist the words a liitle we don't really have to believe anything!

Live how you want believe how you want be free.

Sound like an offering from a great fruit tree.

May be it is time to get the snake out of the garden!

Bruce A

 

[Ben12]

Jesus spoke of a place were the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched.

Clearly those who do not live in righteousness will go there.

Or may be we shall claim Jesus is a liar! God help us.

The KJV is so messed up that it can't be trusted??

Come now and leave your folly! Hell burns hot and the fire is not quenched. It is made for the devil and his team. If the devil remains your father you will go to his final home with him!

If we just twist the words a liitle we don't really have to believe anything!

Live how you want believe how you want be free.

Sound like an offering from a great fruit tree.

May be it is time to get the snake out of the garden!

Bruce A

THE LAKE OF FIRE​

The Book of Revelations is the most spiritual book in the Bible; Baby lon likes to literalize it because their approach it always by the letter that killeth; not the spirit that gives it light. I believe every word that the Bible says about the lake of fire; I don't believe what Rome says about it, nor what the apostate Churches say about it, nor what tradition says about it; but I certainly believe what the Bible says about it.
The teaching concerning the lake of fire does not appear anywhere in Scripture except in the book of Revelation where it is spoken of in the following passages: Rev. 14:10-11; 19:20; 20:10; 20:13-15 and 21:8. This last passage definitely states, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." There should be no question remaining as to the certainty of this lake of fire; neither should there be any doubt as to the awful consequence of having to be cast into it. These Scriptures with their dreadful foreboding should be a fearful warning to all unthinking and foolish people who, because of their love for the world, the flesh, and the devil, have dared to ask why we should serve God now if all are going to be saved eventually. Such people have no love for God nor fear of God, and they manifest by what they say that their professed serving of God is only a pretense, arising - not from any true love for Him - but from fear of punishment. If there were no prospect of hell these would promptly tell God to go to hell and they would, themselves, go to the devil. It is not thus with those who truly love God, for they serve not from fear, but from pure love and devotion. Remove punishment completely from the universe, and they would still serve God with all their hearts.
Because of the gross misunderstanding of almost all people concerning the lake of fire, I would like to draw your attention to three words found in the passage quoted above. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which BURNS with FIRE and BRIMSTONE: which is the second death." The word BURN means combustion, or to consume. To consume does not mean to annihilate, for there is no such thing as annihilation in the absolute sense. When fire consumes a log in your fireplace it does not destroy any of the elements within the log, it merely changes their form. Combustion is the process by which chemicals combine to form new chemicals. For example: a tree might be cut down, sawed into fire wood, and burned. When the wood is burning the heat causes the chemicals of which the wood is composed to vaporize, mixing with the oxygen in the air to form new chemicals, including water and the gas carbon dioxide. So what was formerly a tree is no longer identified as the form of a tree, but the substance thereof is now simply CHANGED into a DIFFERENT FORM and exists in its new form within the atmosphere as water, carbon dioxide, etc. Thus, to bum, means to CHANGE. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that fire does not burn down; it always burns up; it seeks the highest level. And all that it consumes "goes up in smoke," to exist in a new form in a higher dimension. Even if you take a pan of water and place it over a fire, before long the water will take on the property of the fire and will begin to go up in steam. To burn means to CHANGE, and the change is always UPWARD in its motion.
FIRE is the heat and light that you feel and see when something burns. It takes heat to start a fire, but once the fire is started it produces heat that keeps the process going. Thus, fire is really HEAT and LIGHT.
I am impressed by the understanding given by Charles Pridgeon and I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" -end quote.
I realize that the above thoughts define the subject very briefly, but let us summarize the meanings thus: BURN means combustion; to change the form of. FIRE means heat and light. BRIMSTONE means divine. Putting these three together can we not see that the lake burning with fire and brimstone is, actually, DIVINE HEAT AND LIGHT PRODUCING A CHANGE! Is such a process eternal? All the laws of nature shout that it is not! More than 2500 years ago the Holy Spirit warned the wicked inhabitants of Jerusalem that God would kindle a fire at Jerusalem's gates which would devour her palaces. "But if you will not hearken unto Me ... then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not he quenched" (Jer. 17:27). Did not God say this fire "shall NOT BE QUENCHED?" This prophecy was fulfilled and the fire did occur a few years later and it did destroy all the houses of Jerusalem (Jer. 52:13). Since God said no person or thing would "quench" this fire, did that mean that it would burn for ever? Since it accomplished the work it was sent to do, and since it is NOT BURNING TODAY, it obviously went out by itself after accomplishing its purpose! Unquenchable fire is not eternal fire - it is simply fire that cannot be put out until it has consumed or changed everything it is possible for it to change! It then simply goes out, for there is nothing more to burn. Yet I hear the preachers ranting and raving about poor souls being cast into hell fire where "their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" and this, we are told, means eternal, unending torment. How foolish, illogical, and deceptive! Such a view contradicts the plain meaning of the term "unquenchable" and its use in the Word of God.
Are the judgments of God permanent? Isaiah says, "When Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness" (Isa. 26:9). And Mat. 12:20 says, "A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory." Judgment, therefore, is not an eternal condition, but it is given to produce that victory. Judgments of themselves do not save anyone, but they are used by God to bring one to one's self, to effect a change of attitude and will, to consume away the stubbornness and rebellion of men. Punishment by fire is a beneficent one. "Our GOD is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). The basic purpose of this divine fire of God is to cleanse, purify, purge, temper and change. It is to rid of impurities, of filth, of undesirable elements. There is no better way to deal with filth than to deal with it by fire.

 

[SoundCard]

Matthew 5:22 NIV- Tells me the answer to the topic's position.

22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[a]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[b]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

And before another person so much as says anything about scripture being corrupted or mistranslated, I only have this to restate.

Isaiah 59:21 NIV

21 "As for me, this is my covenant with them," says the LORD. "My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever," says the LORD.

So here we have God saying he'll preserve His word. An allpowerful, all knowing, omnipotent, great and just Lord, giving his promise that what he's given us in his words will endure. Now call me gullible, but I think I'm just going to have to assume what I'm reading is true, and take it on faith.

 

[Ben12]

Matthew 5:22 NIV- Tells me the answer to the topic's position.

22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[a]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[b]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

And before another person so much as says anything about scripture being corrupted or mistranslated, I only have this to restate.

Isaiah 59:21 NIV

21 "As for me, this is my covenant with them," says the LORD. "My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever," says the LORD.

So here we have God saying he'll preserve His word. An allpowerful, all knowing, omnipotent, great and just Lord, giving his promise that what he's given us in his words will endure. Now call me gullible, but I think I'm just going to have to assume what I'm reading is true, and take it on faith.

Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Notice who the Matthew 5:22 is speaking to; it is speaking to Sanhedrin; take it a little deeper; is it a sinner, and unrighteous man; no it uses the word brother; religious man of the day may I add.

God has preserved His Word; the apostle Paul, speaking of the whole armor of God, admonishes the saints to "put on…the sword of the Spirit, WHICH IS THE WORD OF GOD" (Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK." Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it
active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any
two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified). Ah, yes, here is the sword that conquers the death in us and GIVES LIFE! As it is written, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing…for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life!" (Jn. 6:63; II Cor. 3:6). The sword of the Spirit is the quickening, energizing, life-giving WORD OF GOD!

I shall not hesitate to explain to you, dear ones, that there are two aspects of the word of God. Jesus Christ is the Word — the Logos —

THE LIVING, CREATIVE WORD! But there is also that word which Paul calls "the letter." The letter is the outer hull, the record and history, the laws and commandments, the rules and regulations, the types, shadows and figures, the external ordinances, rituals, ceremonies, and feasts; the visible form of the word which tells us, in terms understandable by the
natural mind, many things about the Living Word, Jesus Christ. Christ is the Word, the Living Word, and IN HIM IS LIFE!

Also I would like to add; one plain and positive illustration which proceeded from the lips of our Lord Jesus Christ. "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delays his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; the lord of that servant will APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE UNBELIEVERS. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be BEATEN WITH MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be BEATEN WITH FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more" (Lk. 12:45-48).

In this parable it is plain that Christ is teaching degrees of punishment. The Christ teaches that those who have committed things worthy of many stripes, will receive many, and those who were ignorant, and with lesser light did not know or understand the will of God, yet did things worthy of stripes, shall receive but a few. Here is set forth in the plainest of language not only varying degrees of punishment, but also varying lengths of time for the punishment. What ever the judgment typified by the "stripes," it takes longer to inflict many stripes than just a few, so it should not be difficult to understand that some men are punished for a longer period of time than others. The Word of God declares that the Judge of all the earth shall do right, and I believe that He shall do just that. As our children were growing up we did not have one stock punishment for all their misdeeds. We suited the punishment to the disobedience, yet we haven't granted the same privilege to God! We have said that everyone is to receive the very same common punishment, hell fire, and that that judgment would endure for the very same length of time for all - eternity! How, then, I ask, can some be beaten with "many stripes" and others with "few stripes" if all receive the same punishment of endless hell fire? How foolish can we be! It is always extremely foolish to hold to a doctrine that clearly contradicts the Word of God

There would be no answer to your argument; I would be forced to throw up my hands and admit that these words of our Lord apply only to the correction and discipline of servants of the Lord, and have absolutely no bearing whatever on the judgment of unbelievers, or on hell, or on the lake of fire, were it not for one significant statement that appears in verse forty-six. The Lord says, "The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looks not for Him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-E-R-S." Do you see that? Ah, the punishment of this SERVANT is the SAME PUNISHMENT as the UNBELIEVER receives! He is appointed his portion WITH THE UNBELIEVERS! The punishment, therefore, of this servant of the Lord and the punishment of the unbelievers is equal, identical, of the same intensity, for the same length of time, the very same punishment, and that punishment is? -MANY STRIPES! Not unending stripes; not everlasting whipping; not eternal torment under the hands of the tormentors; but - many stripes. And of what precise judgment speaks our Lord when He commands "appoint him his portion with the unbelievers?" What is the "portion of the unbelievers?" Hear it! "But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING ... shall have their part (portion) IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE" (Rev. 21:8). The "portion of the unbelievers" is the lake of fire. And not only are the unbelievers judged there, but the unfaithful servants of God are dealt with there, too! And, by Jesus' own words, this punishment is called "many stripes," and is shown to be limited in its duration and corrective and remedial in its nature.

God does preserve His Word no matter what the corrupt bias religious system of man has does. You may not agree with my interpretation; most do not. But His Word is not just the outer hull; it is spirit and it is truth. Like the song says deep and wide deep and wide; God’s Word is deep; it is hidden and it is written in such a so babes can handle it; but at the same time; it deepness can only be handled by spiritual mature believers; those who have grown beyond the milk stage and have spiritual teeth that can handle a spiritual stake; something you got to chew on.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Wow, let me point out some very obvious flaws with your reasoning. Firstly, a lot of those scriptures you quoted actually support my point, and defy your's. Let me also immediately address what you wrote here "But if you will not hearken unto Me ... then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not he quenched" (Jer. 17:27). Did not God say this fire "shall NOT BE QUENCHED?" This prophecy was fulfilled and the fire did occur a few years later and it did destroy all the houses of Jerusalem (Jer. 52:13). Since God said no person or thing would "quench" this fire, did that mean that it would burn for ever? Since it accomplished the work it was sent to do, and since it is NOT BURNING TODAY, it obviously went out by itself after accomplishing its purpose!"

Ah hah, you prove my point and disprove yourself yet again. A fire burns as long as it takes to destroy all the matter that it has the ability to consume (there are different types of fires, electrical, wood, grease, for instance, each has to be dealt with differently as it burns till its specific substance is completely reduced to its most basic, disordered molecules and elements. A metal fire is the worst kind as it cannot be quenched by any method until the metal is totally destroyed)

Now, then, praytell, what would an unquenchable fire mean for a soul that's cast into a fire specific for it? Since it cannot be quenched, it has to run its course until it is done. Now, God never said for Jerusalem that it was a fire that would burn forever, but a fire which could not be quenched. See the difference? Quenching means you stop a reaction before it is complete. Now a fire, which is the second death and consumes souls cannot be quenched, then it has to run its course, which is the consumption of said souls till nothing is left. All fires take an ordered object and totally annihilates it. Yes, fire annihilates until nothing of the original remains! If this is a soul, well... that person is gone forever. Did not Christ say "For what profit is a man who gains the world, but loses his soul?". Are those meaningless idle words from Christ, or even a lie? Is that what you claim?

Moreover, let me pretend that what you say is true and that, irregardless of the context of said words, every word referring to hell is wrong and should be taken as grave or hades. Then we have a dire problem my friends! For, the righteous will go to heaven, but the wicked will go to the grave or hades? So many passages, like all those I posted, now say grave or hades? But, have you noticed the problem with this yet? The righteous and wicked die alike! We are all mortal, we all go to the grave. The souls of the saved immediately to Christ and the wicked go to hades to await judgment. That at least is absolutely spelled out. And then if this final judgment throws them into hades or the grave... Wow, it did nothing, they didn't go anywhere, they are right were they were before--some judgment! Moreover, how then is the fate of the righteous and the wicked different? Both go to the grave, and in the end at the final judgment the wicked go to the grave yet again!

But here, even then, my point is supported. If the righteous in Chirst are given everlasting life, then those not of Christ are not... then they are sent to the grave, the second death. Hm, grave for the soul? A fire that consumes a soul? Now, since we commonly use grave for the bodies, how can we simplify "gave for the soul" into a new term? Oh yes.. Hell!

So, even by your "it's mistranslated" reasoning, we arrive right back to hell, because it is irrefutable that the bible says that righteous in Christ and wicked receive different fates. This is stated up and down from Old Testament to New without fail. If the fate of the wicked is death and the fate of the righteous is everlasting life, then since both die in body, the only difference must be the soul's fate, the death of the soul. Hence why it is the second death! Therefore, no matter which way you slice and dice it, the outcome of the equation is absolutely the same. All scripture supports this, I dare you to find one scripture alone that supports the idea that the wicked are simply punished for a time after the Final Judgment until they are deemed worthy and come into Heaven. But, did not Christ say that He alone was the way, the truth, and the life and none came to the Father but through Him? And did not Paul say that salvation was not of us so that none could boast, not by good works or avoiding bad? Therefore, it salvation is through the blood and cannot be given through punishment. The Law can only condemn, and not save--punishment cannot save.

If there was no hell or second death, my friends, then there would be nothing for God to save us from! Is that not obvious too? If there is salvation and everlasting life then otherwise there is... what? Why would you need salvation and everlasting life if all were saved? If you are right, Ben, then Christ is no savior! God is not loving and merciful because He's saved us from nothing, and Grace and Faith are completely meaningless! If you are right, there is no need to preach the gospel, for it cannot save souls since they don't need to be saved. If you are right, God's wrath is no worst than a minor scolding, nothing to fear and certainly nothing to take seriously. If you are right, then sinners need not repent! If you were right.

But, I have the whole, the entirety of the bible that disputes everything you claim. Logic and reasoning dispute it, scripture disputes it, even the alternate translation for your "mistranslated" word disputes it. Take your arguments to their logical conclusion and see if there's anything in the scripture that ever supports them--there isn't, but there's plenty to support what the scriptures state plainly.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Oh, quick point as I didn't see this post since I was typing mine: "Lord says, "The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looks not for Him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-E-R-S." Do you see that? Ah, the punishment of this SERVANT is the SAME PUNISHMENT as the UNBELIEVER receives!"

Ah, but you forget. Does not Paul warn carnal Christians that though they will enter heaven (unlike the unbelievers, eh eh?) they will do so like a man leaping through a fire with but the clothes on his back? Will not even believers have their works tested by fire? But the difference is we escape it by the Blood. The unbelievers don't. That is as obvious as day is night. Two fates, not one fate for all or all of this is meaningless, isn't it?

 

[Ben12]

Wow, let me point out some very obvious flaws with your reasoning. Firstly, a lot of those scriptures you quoted actually support my point, and defy your's. Let me also immediately address what you wrote here "But if you will not hearken unto Me ... then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not he quenched" (Jer. 17:27). Did not God say this fire "shall NOT BE QUENCHED?" This prophecy was fulfilled and the fire did occur a few years later and it did destroy all the houses of Jerusalem (Jer. 52:13). Since God said no person or thing would "quench" this fire, did that mean that it would burn for ever? Since it accomplished the work it was sent to do, and since it is NOT BURNING TODAY, it obviously went out by itself after accomplishing its purpose!"

Ah hah, you prove my point and disprove yourself yet again. A fire burns as long as it takes to destroy all the matter that it has the ability to consume (there are different types of fires, electrical, wood, grease, for instance, each has to be dealt with differently as it burns till its specific substance is completely reduced to its most basic, disordered molecules and elements. A metal fire is the worst kind as it cannot be quenched by any method until the metal is totally destroyed)

Now, then, praytell, what would an unquenchable fire mean for a soul that's cast into a fire specific for it? Since it cannot be quenched, it has to run its course until it is done. Now, God never said for Jerusalem that it was a fire that would burn forever, but a fire which could not be quenched. See the difference? Quenching means you stop a reaction before it is complete. Now a fire, which is the second death and consumes souls cannot be quenched, then it has to run its course, which is the consumption of said souls till nothing is left. All fires take an ordered object and totally annihilates it. Yes, fire annihilates until nothing of the original remains! If this is a soul, well... that person is gone forever. Did not Christ say "For what profit is a man who gains the world, but loses his soul?". Are those meaningless idle words from Christ, or even a lie? Is that what you claim?

Moreover, let me pretend that what you say is true and that, irregardless of the context of said words, every word referring to hell is wrong and should be taken as grave or hades. Then we have a dire problem my friends! For, the righteous will go to heaven, but the wicked will go to the grave or hades? So many passages, like all those I posted, now say grave or hades? But, have you noticed the problem with this yet? The righteous and wicked die alike! We are all mortal, we all go to the grave. The souls of the saved immediately to Christ and the wicked go to hades to await judgment. That at least is absolutely spelled out. And then if this final judgment throws them into hades or the grave... Wow, it did nothing, they didn't go anywhere, they are right were they were before--some judgment! Moreover, how then is the fate of the righteous and the wicked different? Both go to the grave, and in the end at the final judgment the wicked go to the grave yet again!

But here, even then, my point is supported. If the righteous in Chirst are given everlasting life, then those not of Christ are not... then they are sent to the grave, the second death. Hm, grave for the soul? A fire that consumes a soul? Now, since we commonly use grave for the bodies, how can we simplify "gave for the soul" into a new term? Oh yes.. Hell!

So, even by your "it's mistranslated" reasoning, we arrive right back to hell, because it is irrefutable that the bible says that righteous in Christ and wicked receive different fates. This is stated up and down from Old Testament to New without fail. If the fate of the wicked is death and the fate of the righteous is everlasting life, then since both die in body, the only difference must be the soul's fate, the death of the soul. Hence why it is the second death! Therefore, no matter which way you slice and dice it, the outcome of the equation is absolutely the same. All scripture supports this, I dare you to find one scripture alone that supports the idea that the wicked are simply punished for a time after the Final Judgment until they are deemed worthy and come into Heaven. But, did not Christ say that He alone was the way, the truth, and the life and none came to the Father but through Him? And did not Paul say that salvation was not of us so that none could boast, not by good works or avoiding bad? Therefore, it salvation is through the blood and cannot be given through punishment. The Law can only condemn, and not save--punishment cannot save.

If there was no hell or second death, my friends, then there would be nothing for God to save us from! Is that not obvious too? If there is salvation and everlasting life then otherwise there is... what? Why would you need salvation and everlasting life if all were saved? If you are right, Ben, then Christ is no savior! God is not loving and merciful because He's saved us from nothing, and Grace and Faith are completely meaningless! If you are right, there is no need to preach the gospel, for it cannot save souls since they don't need to be saved. If you are right, God's wrath is no worst than a minor scolding, nothing to fear and certainly nothing to take seriously. If you are right, then sinners need not repent! If you were right.

But, I have the whole, the entirety of the bible that disputes everything you claim. Logic and reasoning dispute it, scripture disputes it, even the alternate translation for your "mistranslated" word disputes it. Take your arguments to their logical conclusion and see if there's anything in the scripture that ever supports them--there isn't, but there's plenty to support what the scriptures state plainly.

Yes there are different types of fire; what kind of fire are we speaking about (“electrical, wood, grease&#8221 ha, ha. ? I got another one for you spiritual fire. The Lake of fire is only mentioned in the Book of Revelations the most spiritual Book in the entire Bible. Now what could be a spiritual fire; well we better read our Bible instead of pulling it out of our religious bias hat. Look at the pattern the Bible is revealing; unveiling (that is called revelation; not dead religious dogma, creeds and tradition) Fire is such a beautiful spiritual principle; until religious men try to use it for their doctrines of damnations.

Let us start off with Jesus who had: Revelation 1:14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; See His (fire) eyes give light; our eyes receive light.


He is like a REFINER'S FIRE, and like fuller's soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall PURIFY the sons of Levi (the Priesthood), and PURGE them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness" (Mal. 3:1-3).

You know Jesus God a dove when He was Baptized in the river Jordon; on the day of Pentecost believers got cloven tongues of fire. Jesus is perfect; we are not. The word fire comes from the Greek word “pur’ which we get our English word pure, purify, purge and the good old catholic purgatory.

Fire was first used with the sacrifice of Able. Our flesh must be sacrificed to be in the presence of God. The sweat of Cain was not sufficient and was not an acceptable offering unto God for sin. All flesh (self) must be burnt by the fire of God.

Don't forget Daniels friend’s thrown in the Fiery Furnace in Babylon. Only their bondages were burn. Does not Baby lon speak of the religious/political systems of man? They were in Baby lon.

Dan 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. 24Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Even as gold is purified by fire, so are we purified by the fiery trials the Lord sends into our lives. Like the intense heat that causes the impurities to rise to the top of the molten gold, so the many tribulations we face in life, and the blazing fire of God’s dealings that accompany them, draw from us those things that pollute the pure nature of God within our spirit. One pass through the furnace is never sufficient to remove all the impurities in gold, neither can we become pure in one season of testing. God allows us to be tested and tried by the Holy Ghost and fire for however long it takes because He wants us to be pure vessels to manifest His glory. Those who hunger and thirst for Him will not be devastated by this fire, but purified. They are those who heed the apostle Paul’s warning to examine the materials with which we are building as the temple of God is raised up within us, for “every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is” (I Cor. 3:13).

Those who love the Lord and long to see His purpose fulfilled in their lives, are willing to accept Him as a refiner’s fire, as a thresher of wheat, as a presser of olives, as a crusher of grapes, and as a scourging Father! We accepted Him as Saviour, Baptizer, Healer, and Blesser; now we are accepting Him as the Lord of the fires! Our Father has made us willing to embrace the means He uses to perfect us. He perfects us in the crucible of adversities. The tribulations He sends us are not punishments for past failures, but divine tools to conform us to His image. Paul’s thorn in the flesh, Job’s loss of all his possessions, family, and health, Joseph’s betrayal by his brethren, his being sold as a slave, and later his being falsely accused and thrown into prison, were all for a divine purpose.


There are so many beautiful hidden facts in scripture;

 

[Ben12]

On the surface death seems so negative; but in the hands of an all knowing God even death has a victory. It is a fact the more new walk by His anointing the weaker our flesh will become and we will subdue us as well as every form of resistance of the carnal nature until it is His life alone that is made manifest. Nothing like the glorious anointing of the Holy Spirit to make us weak - weak yet very strong for there is power released of which few know anything about because they have refused to accept the sphere of weakness where in He is made strong.

The first Adam died to God and righteousness, and became alive unto sin. The last Adam died unto sin (Rom. 6:10), and liveth unto God, and so fulfilleth all righteousness. The first made all men sinners, the last makes all men righteous. The lives and the deaths of the two Adams are thus greatly contrasting the one to the other. The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because -- the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe. Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh. Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death, and thus Christ 'did taste death for every man' --'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9, 14-15). Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more -- not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality -- but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it -- only God could use such a process bringing victory, but praise God, lie is destroying the first death with the second death" -- end quote.

Death is used to die out to which caused us to be entangled. After that the death process, after that comes salvation with its more abundant life. Thought death there is much that is destroyed-made non effect. It brings an end to so many things. All the old life, the carnality, the self life, the will the imaginations, the intents; but destroyed by the cross. However God does not desire fellowship with a corpse, so needs to follow a resurrection to much more divine living.

Above all, the weakness is an attitude of the heart, weather it has any outward forms expressed or not, it really does not matter when we know in ourselves that we are nothing so we lean heavily on Him. Drawing from Him that strength which is equal to the need, and that grace which is truly sufficient for all things. How precious does the Spirit help our weakness, as we rise to walk in that new creative life.

Romans 8: 19For [even the whole] creation (all nature) waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God's sons to be made known [waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their sonship].
20For the creation (nature) was subjected to [9] frailty (to futility, condemned to frustration), not because of some intentional fault on its part, but by the will of Him Who so subjected it--[yet] with the hope(4)
21That nature (creation) itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and corruption [and gain an entrance] into the glorious freedom of God's children.
22We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.(5)
23And not only the creation, but we ourselves too, who have and enjoy the firstfruits of the [Holy] Spirit [a foretaste of the blissful things to come] groan inwardly as we wait for the redemption of our bodies [from sensuality and the grave, which will reveal] our adoption (our manifestation as God's sons).
24For in [this] hope we were saved. But hope [the object of] which is seen is not hope. For how can one hope for what he already sees?


Second Death: Lake of Fire=
Romans 8

(Concordant Translation)
Rev 2:11 "'"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias (Church or called out). "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."
(KJV)

Rev. 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death


(Concordant Translation)
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the former resurrection! Over these the second death has no jurisdiction, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will be reigning with Him the thousand years.


Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

You're quite wrong about the second death. No where is that used on believers, now is it? Instead, it is said we are made alive. Our old natures are crucified with Christ (why would this be necessary if all were saved in the end?) and a new nature is born in us. We go from being spiritual dead which we were at birth, to spiritual life. Not into a spiritual death and then somehow we are now again. There is only one resurrection. The bible is absolutely clear that the believer dies ONCE yet, only the UNBELIEVERS are sent into the SECOND death. That utterly annihilates the point you are trying to make, death is not being used as some metaphore of being changed, and no where in the bible is it used as such. Death is used as the end of something. Death of our old natures, putting them to death, means they are gone for good. Not refined, not changed, absolutely erased, and a new nature is given to us. Not a transformed nature, an utterly new nature. See?

Yes, God refines us, but that is in this life. Never, no where, is that analogy used except for in reference to this life, and then in reference to the trials and tribulations we suffer now. Why have that happen now if it'll happen later? And if it'll happen after death, why is that never stated, why then is it only stated in reference to the troubles of life?

Yes, a spiritual fire.. which consumes the soul : D. That's the very point I was saying. And since fire completely, unrelentlessly, and without mercy totally destroys whatever it was consuming, then a spiritual fire consumes the soul till it is gone. Believers have our works tested by fire, not our souls, but unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire which is for the soul and is the second death. There soul is consumed, it is no more, it is DEATH, not transformation, sorry.

Again, if you were right, then there is no need for salvation! No need for Faith, and no need for Grace! Then there is no need for everlasting life only through Christ! All of which the bible teaches as needed and absolutely necessary. Isn't that not so? There is no need for repentence if you are right! If you are right, then there is no difference between "believer" and "unbeliever".

But there is a difference between "believer" and "unbeliever". The believer comes to the Father through the only way it can be done, by Christ, not some transforming punishment. Whereas the unbeliever doesn't, so where do they go? And why is it that at the Final Judgment does Christ have to intercede for our sake? Intercede from what? What is there to intercede about if you are right? Nothing, since if you are right there is no salvation since the soul is not annihilated and all go to heaven anyways. If you are right, all can go to heaven by punishment, which means that Christ is not the only way and truth and life. Therefore, if you are right, Christ and the bible and God are lairs and your faith is misplaced.

Why are we said to be alive in Christ and the unbeliever is dead? Is it not because the unbeliever's soul will perish while ours will not? Again, if there is no hell, there is no difference between unbeliever and believer, but the bible is clear that there is, and that there is in regards to eternal fate! After all, worldly fate is the same for both, isn't it?

Also, again, even if you are right and all the "hell" verses should be "grave/death/hades", all those verses still clearly state the unbeliever goes there at the final judgement, and the believer goes to heaven. And then what happens to death/the grave and hades? As you yourself posted "Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

They are destroyed forever, aren't they? So, if they are by going to "second death", then so are all the unbelievers, objects of God's wrath, who are also thrown into the same lake of fire and second death. Or do you still believe God's wrath and judgment is no more dangerous than a smack on the hand and a little "bad boy/girl, now be good and play nice with everyone else in heaven"?

 

[Followers4christ]

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 13:40-42 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Revelation 13-15 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Ben12]

Wow, let me point out some very obvious flaws with your reasoning. Firstly, a lot of those scriptures you quoted actually support my point, and defy your's. Let me also immediately address what you wrote here "But if you will not hearken unto Me ... then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not he quenched" (Jer. 17:27). Did not God say this fire "shall NOT BE QUENCHED?" This prophecy was fulfilled and the fire did occur a few years later and it did destroy all the houses of Jerusalem (Jer. 52:13). Since God said no person or thing would "quench" this fire, did that mean that it would burn for ever? Since it accomplished the work it was sent to do, and since it is NOT BURNING TODAY, it obviously went out by itself after accomplishing its purpose!"

Ah hah, you prove my point and disprove yourself yet again. A fire burns as long as it takes to destroy all the matter that it has the ability to consume (there are different types of fires, electrical, wood, grease, for instance, each has to be dealt with differently as it burns till its specific substance is completely reduced to its most basic, disordered molecules and elements. A metal fire is the worst kind as it cannot be quenched by any method until the metal is totally destroyed)

Now, then, praytell, what would an unquenchable fire mean for a soul that's cast into a fire specific for it? Since it cannot be quenched, it has to run its course until it is done. Now, God never said for Jerusalem that it was a fire that would burn forever, but a fire which could not be quenched. See the difference? Quenching means you stop a reaction before it is complete. Now a fire, which is the second death and consumes souls cannot be quenched, then it has to run its course, which is the consumption of said souls till nothing is left. All fires take an ordered object and totally annihilates it. Yes, fire annihilates until nothing of the original remains! If this is a soul, well... that person is gone forever. Did not Christ say "For what profit is a man who gains the world, but loses his soul?". Are those meaningless idle words from Christ, or even a lie? Is that what you claim?

Moreover, let me pretend that what you say is true and that, irregardless of the context of said words, every word referring to hell is wrong and should be taken as grave or hades. Then we have a dire problem my friends! For, the righteous will go to heaven, but the wicked will go to the grave or hades? So many passages, like all those I posted, now say grave or hades? But, have you noticed the problem with this yet? The righteous and wicked die alike! We are all mortal, we all go to the grave. The souls of the saved immediately to Christ and the wicked go to hades to await judgment. That at least is absolutely spelled out. And then if this final judgment throws them into hades or the grave... Wow, it did nothing, they didn't go anywhere, they are right were they were before--some judgment! Moreover, how then is the fate of the righteous and the wicked different? Both go to the grave, and in the end at the final judgment the wicked go to the grave yet again!

But here, even then, my point is supported. If the righteous in Chirst are given everlasting life, then those not of Christ are not... then they are sent to the grave, the second death. Hm, grave for the soul? A fire that consumes a soul? Now, since we commonly use grave for the bodies, how can we simplify "gave for the soul" into a new term? Oh yes.. Hell!

So, even by your "it's mistranslated" reasoning, we arrive right back to hell, because it is irrefutable that the bible says that righteous in Christ and wicked receive different fates. This is stated up and down from Old Testament to New without fail. If the fate of the wicked is death and the fate of the righteous is everlasting life, then since both die in body, the only difference must be the soul's fate, the death of the soul. Hence why it is the second death! Therefore, no matter which way you slice and dice it, the outcome of the equation is absolutely the same. All scripture supports this, I dare you to find one scripture alone that supports the idea that the wicked are simply punished for a time after the Final Judgment until they are deemed worthy and come into Heaven. But, did not Christ say that He alone was the way, the truth, and the life and none came to the Father but through Him? And did not Paul say that salvation was not of us so that none could boast, not by good works or avoiding bad? Therefore, it salvation is through the blood and cannot be given through punishment. The Law can only condemn, and not save--punishment cannot save.

If there was no hell or second death, my friends, then there would be nothing for God to save us from! Is that not obvious too? If there is salvation and everlasting life then otherwise there is... what? Why would you need salvation and everlasting life if all were saved? If you are right, Ben, then Christ is no savior! God is not loving and merciful because He's saved us from nothing, and Grace and Faith are completely meaningless! If you are right, there is no need to preach the gospel, for it cannot save souls since they don't need to be saved. If you are right, God's wrath is no worst than a minor scolding, nothing to fear and certainly nothing to take seriously. If you are right, then sinners need not repent! If you were right.

But, I have the whole, the entirety of the bible that disputes everything you claim. Logic and reasoning dispute it, scripture disputes it, even the alternate translation for your "mistranslated" word disputes it. Take your arguments to their logical conclusion and see if there's anything in the scripture that ever supports them--there isn't, but there's plenty to support what the scriptures state plainly.

Sorry there is so much more. There are two types of believers in the Book of Revelations; those who over come and those who do not. The overcomers will not be hurt by the Lake of Devine Purging; or second death; because they have already overcome; they have been purged and processed.

If our natures are not perfect now we would you would see no sin in God’s people now; we got a long way to go brother.

Only one resurrection; I guess then you believe Act 24:15 is a lie. Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Resurrection means to rise; notice the word unjust.

The second death and the Lake of fire are metaphors as you stated or symbolism; because the who Book of revelations is a spiritual book expressed with signs and symbols and is not literal.

We were dead spiritually when we were born; because we were born with the curse of Adam. Adam was clothed by God’s glory before the fall. By eating of the tree of Good and Evil he was brought down to the realm of death. (Zombies the living dead Adam (I like that). A dead man cannot see, hear, smell touch; that is especially true of a spiritual dead man.

Adam died when he partook of the fruit in the garden; he did not die physically until he was 930 years old. (Gen. 5.5) He died spiritually.

God’s second’s are always more glorious then His first. The Bible is so full of spiritual patterns and one of these patterns I can’t help but ignore is God’s seconds are always more glorious then His first. look at the pattern (First Adam-Second Adam; First Covenant; Second covenant-First Resurrection-Second Resurrection; law-grace and first death-Second death. All thought the OT the pattern was the second son God gave the blessing; never the first. Do we believe what man and His tradition shows us; or are we open to the revelation of Jesus Christ; or unveiling of Jesus Christ.

What you are missing is the priesthood of God; the Melchisedec. Priesthood, the overcomer, the Tabernacle of David. You can play your harp; praise God I want to be included with the overcomers who will become Kings and Priest unto God
Because you base salvation on saying a few right words and then you are perfect and you go to heaven to play harps why our so called love ones are going to be tortured by Jesus in an eternal torture chamber. There is no good news in eternal hell and torment. I hate laundry list.







You're quite wrong about the second death. No where is that used on believers, now is it? Instead, it is said we are made alive. Our old natures are crucified with Christ (why would this be necessary if all were saved in the end?) and a new nature is born in us. We go from being spiritual dead which we were at birth, to spiritual life. Not into a spiritual death and then somehow we are now again. There is only one resurrection. The bible is absolutely clear that the believer dies ONCE yet, only the UNBELIEVERS are sent into the SECOND death. That utterly annihilates the point you are trying to make, death is not being used as some metaphore of being changed, and no where in the bible is it used as such. Death is used as the end of something. Death of our old natures, putting them to death, means they are gone for good. Not refined, not changed, absolutely erased, and a new nature is given to us. Not a transformed nature, an utterly new nature. See?

Yes, God refines us, but that is in this life. Never, no where, is that analogy used except for in reference to this life, and then in reference to the trials and tribulations we suffer now. Why have that happen now if it'll happen later? And if it'll happen after death, why is that never stated, why then is it only stated in reference to the troubles of life?

Yes, a spiritual fire.. which consumes the soul : D. That's the very point I was saying. And since fire completely, unrelentlessly, and without mercy totally destroys whatever it was consuming, then a spiritual fire consumes the soul till it is gone. Believers have our works tested by fire, not our souls, but unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire which is for the soul and is the second death. There soul is consumed, it is no more, it is DEATH, not transformation, sorry.

Again, if you were right, then there is no need for salvation! No need for Faith, and no need for Grace! Then there is no need for everlasting life only through Christ! All of which the bible teaches as needed and absolutely necessary. Isn't that not so? There is no need for repentence if you are right! If you are right, then there is no difference between "believer" and "unbeliever".

But there is a difference between "believer" and "unbeliever". The believer comes to the Father through the only way it can be done, by Christ, not some transforming punishment. Whereas the unbeliever doesn't, so where do they go? And why is it that at the Final Judgment does Christ have to intercede for our sake? Intercede from what? What is there to intercede about if you are right? Nothing, since if you are right there is no salvation since the soul is not annihilated and all go to heaven anyways. If you are right, all can go to heaven by punishment, which means that Christ is not the only way and truth and life. Therefore, if you are right, Christ and the bible and God are lairs and your faith is misplaced.

Why are we said to be alive in Christ and the unbeliever is dead? Is it not because the unbeliever's soul will perish while ours will not? Again, if there is no hell, there is no difference between unbeliever and believer, but the bible is clear that there is, and that there is in regards to eternal fate! After all, worldly fate is the same for both, isn't it?

Also, again, even if you are right and all the "hell" verses should be "grave/death/hades", all those verses still clearly state the unbeliever goes there at the final judgement, and the believer goes to heaven. And then what happens to death/the grave and hades? As you yourself posted "Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

They are destroyed forever, aren't they? So, if they are by going to "second death", then so are all the unbelievers, objects of God's wrath, who are also thrown into the same lake of fire and second death. Or do you still believe God's wrath and judgment is no more dangerous than a smack on the hand and a little "bad boy/girl, now be good and play nice with everyone else in heaven"?

 

[Ben12]

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 13:40-42 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Revelation 13-15 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Wow; yoou can quote scipture

 

[SoundCard]

Since you're so "enlightened", then tell me how exactly you came to know where all the secrets, all these things are meant to be symbolic and non-literal? All these patterns and secrets you seem so fond of, that you and you alone that God has informed as to what the real meaning of his word is? Yes...the Bible is highly spiritual, seeing as it deals with the spirit and soul and whatnot.

Where is the good news hell and eternal torment? There is no good news in that, the good news is there's a way OUT of that, through Faith in Christ. And I'm sorry, but if your standard for people to get into Heaven doesn't line up with what God has told us, then you're wrong. Why would there be warnings in scripture about Hell and whatnot? Are all these phrases about hell and the lake of fire all purely metaphorical? I don't think so. I don't see any truth in this. You also keep throwing out the word "all" as in all people will be saved by Christ in the end. Isn't it possible you've misinterpeted that "all" as being all those who have taken Christ in Faith? And stop saying how can someone who's spiritually dead come to Christ, because obviously they do, and obviously they have. Someone who's physically dead cannot feel, hear, see, taste, touch, smell, etc. Someone who is spiritually dead is still capable of hearing, tasting, feeling, touching, smelling, seeing. So then by what work or befudlement is it so hard to believe that words of Christ can breathe life back into that which is dead? He came to bring life back to the spiritually dead, and if all are spiritually dead and cannot hear, then yet again His coming and sacrifice meant nothing, and we're all just wasting our time because we're still spiritual corpses waiting for something that, by according to the logic you present, cannot possibly happen.
*e*
There's something else I just have to say. Forgive me if I don't sound as informed, or long worded as some of these other responses, but in these arguments about, Hell not being permanent or, reconciling with the unfaithful through fire... it just all really severely underminds the sacrifice of Christ. How great of a gap between man and God must there be, for God himself, in the flesh, in Christ the Son, to have to die and spill his blood, to reconcile the gap that spans between us and Him by our birth from Adam? Now, given that presumption, if sin is that abhorrent, that detestable, why is it so hard to believe, or comprehend, that those who are unrepentant in Christ face a fate which deals accordingly by God's standards, for the sins they carry? If we do not place our burdens onto Christ and have them erased by his atonement, then we carry the abomination of sin with us to the grave, and then to Judgment. And if we stand in the presence of the one who views sins as such detestable things, in order for Him to be just and upholding of his own laws, what other option is there? That gap is still there, that separation from God is still with the unbelievers. I'm not saying I enjoy the thought of someone going to Hell. Because I don't. I don't delight in the destruction of them. But it is not how I feel in these matters that determines the final outcome of their fate. And if God has said, those who have no Faith in Christ must be cast to the fire for their sins, then what other option is there? None. And if the fire is punishment for the sin presented, then what cleansing is there if it is not stated as such? I see no scripture, I have no inclination that all who enter Hell's furnace are burned clean. I hear, they are destroyed. I don't read, their sins are destroyed, I read, THEY are destroyed. For God to be a just God, for God to be righteous God, he MUST destroy sin. And it is only by Christ, and CHRIST ALONE, that sin is atoned for, and destruction averted! Now if God himself, in Christ the Son, dying for you, his blood the final sacrifice for sin's erosion of our standing with God is not seen as the ultimate act of Grace or love, then you really don't know God. He DIDN'T have to do that. There is no one on this Earth to whom God is obligated to do any favors for, and yet it is. THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS OF SALVATION. YOU CAN AVERT DESTRUCTION IN THE SECOND DEATH BY HIS SAVLATION AND FIND A PLACE WITH CHRIST AS A CHILD OF GOD! So stop telling me that it's figurative or metaphorical! It obviously isn't! And if you can't see that, then I'm afraid you have some problems which must be addressed.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

wow what a complicated discussion...I don't quite know what to say...I believe that those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be raised to eternal life with God, and those whose names are not written there will be raised to condemnation and will be thrown into the lake of fire. Satan, death and 'hades' are also thrown into the lake of fire. It seems that this will be hell. As to what happens before the Last Judgement, I really don't know...I guess the saved will be happy with God, and the unsaved will either be in separation from Him, or in pain, or won't be able to see Him at all until Judgement.

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation. 20: 11-15

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Come on Ben, you're smarter than this. You keep using the same circular arguments to back up something that has no scriptural foundation. We all know everyone is raised to be judged, that's not what we are talking about, we're talking about the second death, which is commonly called "Hell" and is a result of Final Judgment.

Now, are not the wages of sin death? Come on, that's a basic that everyone knows. And if we all die physically, then it isn't talking about that is it? No where, NO WHERE in the bible does it ever say, or even hint at, that we are saved by anything other than the Blood of Christ or that unbelievers get to enter heaven after some refining fire. Sorry, that's absolutely against the scripture.

Wow, you can quote scripture too, Ben, but you do a bad job of trying to use it to support your position. And I don't mean that condescendingly, but as a helpful point. Don't quote something unless it directly supports your points in a logical extensional way, these quotes don't, and there's plenty of quotes which disprove you.
The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)! Not transformation or correctional action. DEATH! Thanatos is what the greek says! There is no other interpretation my friend, and you do a grave disservice to the Kingdom and to unbelievers by saying there is no hell or that it is just a correctional facility--for then they don't need to believe in Christ or repent, and we know where their fate will then lie.

You are so wrong. Salvation is through the Blood of Christ alone. Are you denying this in what you say when you say "Because you base salvation on saying a few right words and then you are perfect and you go to heaven to play harps why our so called love ones are going to be tortured by Jesus in an eternal torture chamber. There is no good news in eternal hell and torment. I hate laundry list."

How little you understand if you truly believe that. It is by accepting Christ and His free gift of Everlasting Life (salvation) in our hearts, a thing of the heart, no actions or words determine it, but only our inner being. Though, from the heart does the mouth speak, so whatever is your inner being will eventually be proven by your actions and words. However, there is a disconnect. Although one's actions and words can be a image into the heart, they are not determiners of that heart. Therefore, actions and words do not make the heart, nor do they make salvation (a person can lie with their mouth and deeds! But God knows the ultimate truth of their heart). The heart must trust in Christ. What did Paul say? Any who believe in their heart that Jesus is the Son of God and God raised Him from the dead, and proclaim with their mouth Jesus is Lord is saved? Again I ask you, saved from what? And why is this necessary to be saved if Hell doesn't exist in all its potency. You've never been able to answer that, and you never will.

There is no laundry list. But you truly misunderstand the priest hood too. Christ is the high priest, the only priest. He alone is the mediator between Man and God. Not us, that is not our purpose, we are being made into His children only through His blood. There are no saints in heaven who intercede on your behalf. Hebrews is very very clear on that. There is no need for any priests now that Christ is the one true Priest--no need for sacrifices to atone for sins for Christ was the one true and final atonement. And why would there be a need for atonement if there was no Hell? The wages of sin is death!

This is more than just Revelation my friend. How many books of the bible talk about the ultimate destruction of the wicked and salvation of the righteous? How many! Sorry, the entire bible is about that. The bible itself is proof of the need for salvation and the reality of hell, which is the only logical consequential alternative.

The moment you say it is all not literal, the moment you say you can interpret it any way you want and it is suddenly absolute truth, is the moment you've lost all credibility. I do not argue from my own ideas or self, I argue only from the Word of God. You are making things up the moment you start saying you can interpret it however you feel like. Who are you to judge! Only the Word can be anything to judge from.

Occum's razor. The simpliest explanation to what the bible means is what it actually says. Was John being metaphorical when he spoke of a flaming mountain striking the earth? He didn't have the word meteor or asteroid in his vocabulary (shooting star sure, but an asteroid is far far different), yet his description of it is absolutely spot on (and its effects on the earth too). I think you can safely take that as literal, and I dare you to try to make something metaphoric out of it that actually makes a wit of sense in reality! When John is being metaphorical he is very obvious about it, saying "as", or "like" which are immediate qualifiers of an analogy and not a literal description.

I'm sorry my friend, reality does not change depending on how you feel or what you think. Nor does the Word of God. You cannot simply say it means whatever you feel like it means. It means what it means, and that is what it says. You have to put it all together holistically to understand that meaning to its fullest and all the caveats, so don't forget to take everything together as one.