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Hmm, so does that mean that every OTHER excuse non Christians use negates everything else too?[F]I have heard non-Christians say, quote: I could never worship any God that would torture people for all eternity. Such a God should be despised, and that is why I am opposed to Christianity[/font]. NOW WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT! GODS HOLY NAME IS BLASPHEMED BECAUSE WHY?
All of the things you listed are seprate issues. It is not unreasonable for me to be apposed to a teaching, that was not originally taught by the disciples or the prophets.Hmm, so does that mean that every OTHER excuse non Christians use negates everything else too?
K, Romans 1 covers this - and God gives everyone revelation of Himself. There are several types of Revelations that God gives all people to know Him by.
There's our inner conscience (moral revelation) - you see this in Romans 2:14-15 where gentiles without the law are judged by their obedience to their concience/ it becomes a 'LAW' unto themselves. We all have a moral code of knowing right and wrong.
Then there's general revelation - Creation itself is proof of God - there's no one without excuse to VISUALLY SEE God's handiwork and know He exists and is our Creator.
Then there's special revelation where God is directly calling them personally within their hearts. Most Christians I know have had direct 'contacts' where they knew God was working in them or speaking to them & convicting them to repent.
Every person is responsible to respond to whatever amount of Light God gives them to come to Him by. So no one is without any excuse by the time they die.
And they're judged righteously too - if God didn't give them the Bible, He certainly isn't going to be judging them on what they didn't know from it or couldn't know.
Yes, I know there are degrees of punishment. I've been trying to tell others that but to no avail.Have you forgotten that there are DEGREES of punishment and DEGREES of reward? Do you think God is unfair? That He can't know how to correctly judge or punish?
Maybe YOUR idea of punishment is way too soft than what God has in mind; how do you know? We see God's wrath in physical life - striking people dead for lying or grabbing the ark of the covenant before it falls to the ground, sending down brimstone & hail & wiping out entire cities, striking a woman with leprosy for griping against Moses, sending earthquakes that swallowed people up who rebelled.... the lists go on.
Then stop bringing it up.Well, according to Luke 16, it's not so restful while they await sentencing for their life.
I only brought up universalism bcuz you promote it - I thought somehow your statement might have had something to do w/ it - nothing more.
You have no knowledge of history! You keep goin on about the Catholic religion. What about the Christians before them, namely the Orthodox? Didn't they also believe in Hell? Unfortunatly, it seems you are a conformist ans, well, nobody but God can help that. I can not believe that you are ACTUALLY denying facts because non-Christians don't like hell. They blaspheme Him over anything. They are always looking for good excuses. Why do you care what people think anyway? Like I said, you would never surive in an argument against a Greek or Orthodox. Never. I'm assuming you are Torah observant? It absolutly states in the OT that we should keep the Moedim and Shabbos and other laws of God. Anything less than that could be argued as paganism.This information comes from the Holman bible dictionary: Hades was the Greek god of the underworld: Gehenna is the Greek word derived from the Hebrew words ge hinnom meaning, "vally of Hinnom." It was a place on the South side of Jerusalem used to worship pagan gods of the underworld: Tartaroo is the Greek word for the place or underworld of the dead. Like I said, the Catholic Church introduced the Pagan religion of hell into Christianity. And the word hell is used to replace the words grave or pit. Now I ask you, would God approve of Paganism being added to His truth; The bible; the word of God spoken and written by the prophets? It is not unreasonable for me to be opposed to a teaching that was not originally taught by the disciples or prophets.
Michael, they really aren't separate issues once you get down to the source:All of the things you listed are seprate issues. It is not unreasonable for me to be apposed to a teaching, that was not originally taught by the disciples or the prophets.
Only that your post kind of implied [to me] that all these people who haven't been given a bible or been verbally taught about Christ (in whatever remote, isolated areas they live cutoff from most human contact) are just thrown into torment when they had no way of knowing about the God of Israel --Yes, I agree with you 100%, I hope I didn't say anything different. Did I?
I know, people seem to be hung up on "sin is sin"... well, ANY SIN is enough to land us in condemnation unless repented, BUT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PENALTY PHASE at sentencing time.Yes, I know there are degrees of punishment. I've been trying to tell others that but to no avail.
I just gave some verses in my prev. post on hell - all I can say is, WE HAVE TO GO BY WHAT'S WRITTEN, not what we WANT it to be.Did you also realize that in the Law, and that is what you are talking about, right?, the worst punishment for sin was death, as you said above. There was no punishment that was anything like torture. When a person was judged it was in accordance to the crime committed. Punishment was always given after one has been judged.
Well, I personally think punishment comes AT DEATH -- once we're dead, judgment.That's all I'm trying to say. Punishment comes after judgment, and it hasn't happened yet.
Nadine: I only brought up universalism bcuz you promote it - I thought somehow your statement might have had something to do w/ it - nothing more.
Why stop bringing it up? Read the Thread subject. It's ABOUT hell. Why would I NOT take your currently known worldview into consideration on these topics???Then stop bringing it up.
Websters on Parable:The parable of Abraham's Bosom has been shown to be about the kingdom being taken from the house of Judah and given to the Gentiles, as in the judgment that came against them when the Temple was destroyed along with Jerusalem. It is a parable and not to be taken literally, it's not meant to be a teaching on hell.
.Another thing Nadiine.. I'd like to apologize to you again for my attitude towards you sometimes. I'm starting to get use to you and the way you post (it's taken awhile) and I just want to say that I love you in the Lord.
Only that your post kind of implied [to me] that all these people who haven't been given a bible or been verbally taught about Christ (in whatever remote, isolated areas they live cutoff from most human contact) are just thrown into torment when they had no way of knowing about the God of Israel --
Each person is given a revelation... by the way, I forgot to add one other revelation that I thought of last nite, DIVINE Revelation - where God directly does something visible that's proving Himself. Like with Paul on the road to Damascus... like Jesus' miracles in front of the people etc.
Many had visual proofs and still rejected Christ. (so much for those who demand that God appear to them & perform cheap parlour tricks to prove He exists).
I know, people seem to be hung up on "sin is sin"... well, ANY SIN is enough to land us in condemnation unless repented, BUT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PENALTY PHASE at sentencing time.
For the life of me I can't fathom why people reject degrees of punishment according to people's acts - as if our own court systems don't operate this way which we all admit is FAIR.
Any judge sentencing a man to 5 years in prison for stealing a pencil at his workplace and giving a serial killer an equal 5 years for murdering 10 women would be kicked out of his position for such a violation of justice.
We even hold this balance of fairness & expect it towards others, yet they refuse to apply it with God -WHO IS THE LEGISLATOR OF ALL TRUE JUSTICE!
(& to turn it around, would they want God to give them equal reward as someone else who did much LESS to serve God? - NO. They'de want exactly what their fair share OR MORE.)
I just gave some verses in my prev. post on hell - all I can say is, WE HAVE TO GO BY WHAT'S WRITTEN, not what we WANT it to be.
Annihilationism has it's own doctrinal troubles - it's not widely accepted & there are websites that refute it pretty well.
Basically, annihilationism is "release" from punishment, not punishment. **I will say that I find more biblical plausiblity for that theory than I do Universalism - if that's any consolation.
Well, I personally think punishment comes AT DEATH -- once we're dead, judgment.
"It is appointed man once to die, THEN judgment". For the saint, "absent from the body, present with the Lord". (I view it that way only bcuz Jesus went at His death to take the captives with Him to paradise)..?
I'd again mention Luke 16:19-31 - (which I go into later)
basically, IF torment in HELL (awaiting sentencing) ISN'T TRUE, THEN JESUS PURPOSELY CONFUSED US when He didn't have to!
NOBODY knows what happens in the afterlife but GOD ALONE (and all who have died & are already there) -
SO WHY IS JESUS TELLING US SUCH A STORY if no one is in hell,or if there's no "hell", if there's no torment after the unsaved die, etc. etc.
This is really an injustice Jesus has done if it's not the case - it's just totally unecessary to use in drawing a parallel to something completely unrelated to it.
(ie, it actually FORMS new opinions and questions other than defining the subject - it raises NEW issues and principles rather than just drawing a simple parallel to the subject for easier understanding; confusing or complicating the issue more... which defeats the purpose of a parable.
Why stop bringing it up? Read the Thread subject. It's ABOUT hell. Why would I NOT take your currently known worldview into consideration on these topics???
To ignore your worldview on topics of hell & condemnation would be pretty silly imho.
Websters on Parable:
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin parabola, from Greek parabolE comparison, from paraballein to compare, from para- + ballein to throw -- more at [SIZE=-1]DEVIL[/SIZE]
: [SIZE=-1]EXAMPLE[/SIZE]; specifically : a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
Info about Parables:
Generally speaking, a parable is a fictitious tale, although usually realistic. The normal purpose of Bible parables was to convey a higher, spiritual truth.
Because parables resemble probable happenings, some Bible scholars believe the stories actually happened. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke 16:19-31 is one such example. Some argue that this parable includes real people and events; others believe that it was a fictional lesson directed by Jesus at the hardened hearts of His day.
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/parables-of-jesus.htm
Here's Wiki's entry on Jesus' parables:
The parables of Jesus, found in the synoptic gospels, embody much of Jesus' teaching. Jesus' parables are quite simple, memorable stories, often with humble imagery, each with a single message.
Jesus, for example, likened the Kingdom of God to leaven (an image usually meant as corruption) or a mustard seed. Like his aphorisms, Jesus' parables were often surprising and paradoxical.
The parable of the good Samaritan, for example, turned expectations on their head with the despised Samaritan proving to be the wounded man's neighbor. The parables were simple and memorable enough to survive in an oral tradition before being written down years after Jesus' death.
His parables are sometimes interpreted as allegories in the gospels themselves and in Christian tradition. In such an allegory, each element corresponds metaphorically to a class of people (e.g., false Christians), a heavenly reward, or some other topic. The gospel of John includes allegories but no parables.
Parables TEACH SOMETHING SIMILAR and are simple.
Let me ask this too - if it's only about God's kingdom going to the Gentiles, WHY ARE THE JEWS ALL DEAD (Both the rich man & Lazarus are dead).
Wouldn't the parable just stop at showing the kingdom is given over to the other?
Instead, it goes into the PUNISHMENT & TORMENT phases in elaborate detail.
And, are ALL JEWS REMOVED FROM GOD'S KINGDOM? No, we're merely GRAFTED IN to their branch. We didn't TAKE OVER God's kingdom and the Jews are cut off and left in the dust w/ no promise from God for restoration.
(ie replacement theology)
If this "parable" is what you say it is, ISRAEL IS CUT OFF AND GONE and the Gentiles took it over instead. (not true Romans 11).
Also, JESUS ALREADY GAVE A PARABLE ABOUT THE GENTILES coming into the "flock". "I have other sheep" that He will bring in.
Jesus already taught this in parable form using Sheep & pastures... why use the AFTERLIFE in extreme torments?
THEN, the bad rich man at the end asks if he can be released to go out and warn his brothers of this place:
27 "Then the rich man said, `Please, Father Abraham, send him to my father's home.
28 For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them about this place of torment so they won't have to come here when they die.'
29 "But Abraham said, `Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read their writings anytime they want to.'
30 "The rich man replied, `No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will turn from their sins.'
31 "But Abraham said, `If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead.' "
Look at these verses in context -
This is about believing the testimony God gives - thru His prophets.
IF THEY REJECT MOSES & THE PROPHETS TESTIMONY, THEY WON'T BELIEVE EVEN ONE RISING FROM THE DEAD.
It's ANY who reject Christ that will be where the rich man is; NOT ONLY JEWS - BUT GENTILES AS WELL.
.
Thank you for that, and I apologize for making you (& others) angry... I don't mean to be a pitbull w/ lipstick as if I'm on some mission to take people down - I just am very passionate about doctrine.
I added a little note on my profile when I joined that I had a debate style - my motive is love for God & His word... and so people will accept God for who He is - including the negatives we may take issue with.
I see it butchered or ignored so much (I've been debating for some 12 years now), that after time goes by, you just get "calloused" & frustrated seeing false stuff being thrown around as truth. (yes I know, that's MY OPINION) =0)~
I also don't claim to know it all either - I'm careful to stay only on topics that I've put some study into or that I'm familiar with... there's alot of threads here I'm not qualified to debate in so I stay out.
But that's why I've gotten so adamant about it; I wasn't always like this when I first started... over time I've just seen things get worse -
& my personality is loud, very exuberant and expressive on top of it - I have alot of energy & am peppy ..., so this is kind of the result. LOLI try hard not to be obnoxious - I restrain myself alot.
Anyways I don't HATE anyone, I don't personally attack anyone, nor will I; that's rude & mean & not my spirit at all.
So thanks for that, I hope my explanation about my post style helps; for whatever it's worth.
I realize you said I 'seemed' to imply "that all these people who haven't been given a bible or been verbally taught about Christ (in whatever remote, isolated areas they live cutoff from most human contact) are just thrown into torment when they had no way of knowing about the God of Israel"Nadiine talking...
Well, Um....
Is God obligated to be providing them Champagne, Caviar, Las Vegas shows and harems until their number comes up for the White Throne judgment?
What is the point you're trying to make here? That becuz they're suffering BEFORE their judgment, they will "get out" after it?
This part is Tavita talking...
Excuse me? You've got to be kidding!
Those who have accepted Christ are already with Him. But what of those who have never heard of Him? What of those who have never had the opportunity to accept Him? There are multitudes. All of them will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment... by their works. Now you've got them already judged with their punishment already metered out before judgment? You want God to torment and torture them before judgment? We don't even do that in our courts of law.
Yes, I can see how it raises some neck hairs... there's factual information a person can give, and then there's the WAY it's delivered.Yes, thank you for your explanation, Nadiine. And I hope you can see how it can get a persons back up. God says we're to be gentle in our conversations with others (I know I don't do that either.. which seems to be a lot lately).
K, great - Let's compare this to what Jesus did with the Pharisees in Mat. 23 in His long rebuke; calling them "sons of hell" etc.Col 4:6 Let your speech be always with grace, having been seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.
2Ti 2:24 But the servant of the Lord must not strive, but to be gentle to all, apt to teach, patient,
I THINK I see what you mite be talking about, and it's SO hard for me to put it together & make sense, I'll just ask if what you mean is this: I'm making a 'correction' or a disagreement to your post then what I say is exactly what you had just said?I realize you said I 'seemed' to imply "that all these people who haven't been given a bible or been verbally taught about Christ (in whatever remote, isolated areas they live cutoff from most human contact) are just thrown into torment when they had no way of knowing about the God of Israel"
I was answering your post, in blue, where I assumed you were saying all these people were being tortured or going through some kind of punishment before they had been judged. I didn't say they were suffering at all, I said they are resting until the judgment when all the dead are resurrected.
This is another example of how hard it is to post back to you. I say one thing, you counter me, and then accuse me of saying what you said???
Can you see it?
(this is getting confusing now LOL)Quote:
Nadiine talking...
Well, Um....
Is God obligated to be providing them Champagne, Caviar, Las Vegas shows and harems until their number comes up for the White Throne judgment?
What is the point you're trying to make here? That becuz they're suffering BEFORE their judgment, they will "get out" after it?
This part is Tavita talking...
Excuse me? You've got to be kidding!
Those who have accepted Christ are already with Him. But what of those who have never heard of Him? What of those who have never had the opportunity to accept Him? There are multitudes. All of them will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment... by their works. Now you've got them already judged with their punishment already metered out before judgment? You want God to torment and torture them before judgment? We don't even do that in our courts of law.
The NIV omits part of Mark 16 ...The INTERPRETATION "hades or gehenna" is in the K.J.V. You will not find the word "hades" in the N.I.V. Old Testament, however you will find the word "hades" in the N.I.V. New Testament as a INTERPRETATION for "grave." As for God raising the condemed back to life, no one can say for certain, because it is given in parabolic form. Maybe He will or may be He wont; no one knows. I know the bible is difficult to understand at times, but there is rhyme and reason. People keep asking me for proof and I keep referring to the bible and the EXAUSTIVE CONCORDANCE. If you dont have the K.J.V. bible and Strong's Exaustive Concordance, along with the N.I.V. bible and Exaustive Concordance, well then, you are not going to see the truth for yourself. Are the words you are reading a translation, or an interpretation? What you are taught as Christians depends on who's team your on.
This information comes from the Holman bible dictionary: Hades was the Greek god of the underworld: Gehenna is the Greek word derived from the Hebrew words ge hinnom meaning, "vally of Hinnom." It was a place on the South side of Jerusalem used to worship pagan gods of the underworld: Tartaroo is the Greek word for the place or underworld of the dead. Like I said, the Catholic Church introduced the Pagan religion of hell into Christianity. And the word hell is used to replace the words grave or pit. Now I ask you, would God approve of Paganism being added to His truth; The bible; the word of God spoken and written by the prophets? It is not unreasonable for me to be opposed to a teaching that was not originally taught by the disciples or prophets.The NIV omits part of Mark 16 ...
The NIV is a paraphrase bible
The KJV, NAB, DR are transliterated ( close to word for word)
Jesus , the disciples, and fathers spoke of the second death ( of the spirit ) of 1 life , then judgement... John speaks of the same in the book of revelation ...
there is a type of hell in the old covenant with Jannes and Jambres and the rebellion of Korah ... where the ground opens and they are swallowed up ...
Jesus said that my words that you believe and act upon will defend you and my words that you reject will prosecute you ...in the last days...
www.blueletterbible.com or www.biblegateway.com has an online concordance and 10+ different bible translations in several languages to look up and compare transliterations (closest word for our language, for there are words in armamic, hebrew, and greek that are not in our language)
Did the Catholic church write the NT??? People also claim that the Trinity came from PAGAN origins too - when it did not.This information comes from the Holman bible dictionary: Hades was the Greek god of the underworld: Gehenna is the Greek word derived from the Hebrew words ge hinnom meaning, "vally of Hinnom." It was a place on the South side of Jerusalem used to worship pagan gods of the underworld: Tartaroo is the Greek word for the place or underworld of the dead. Like I said, the Catholic Church introduced the Pagan religion of hell into Christianity. And the word hell is used to replace the words grave or pit. Now I ask you, would God approve of Paganism being added to His truth; The bible; the word of God spoken and written by the prophets? It is not unreasonable for me to be opposed to a teaching that was not originally taught by the disciples or prophets.
This reminds me of the story of the rich young ruler who went away sad when Jesus told him to sell all he had and then to come follow Him. Jesus knew that the rich young ruler loved money more than anything else, so His command was a test that bore out that truth for the rich young ruler. He exposed the sin of this young man using the law. When the law is used, conviction of sin is always the result. That's what the young ruler was feeling as he walked away saddened.Hmm, so does that mean that every OTHER excuse non Christians use negates everything else too?
If a nonChristian says, "I would NEVER worship a God that forced me to stop having sex with whoever I wanted!!!"
Does that mean God gives in & says "go ahead, just PLEASE worship Me?"
If a nonChristian says "I could NEVER worship a God that doesn't let me worship other gods & goddesses I believe in"
Does that mean God gives in & says "go ahead & worship them, I'm sorry - please just worship Me sometimes"
If a nonChristian says "I could NEVER worship a God that expects me to repent over sins that I don't think are wrong".
Does that mean God apologizes & removes repentance for them?
I've heard people say that they wouldn't worship our God bcuz of His wrath in the OT.! Now what! Do we claim it didn't happen? Lie? Tell them God's temper is better now? :/
The fact that people give their excuses doesn't make TRUTH go away for them. What did Jesus say about who follows Him?
Pay close attn:
Mat. 10:
36and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.38"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
We're turning God into a sappy, wimpy BEGGAR as if He's out there gravelling, whining & begging people to please come to Him - as if He's out there changing all His rules just to get people to love Him!!.
How lowly are we painting our Lord??! Have we forgotten His majesty??
Here's another verse:
Heb. 10:
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
God is loving, BUT LETS NOT REMOVE HIS MAJESTY and paint Him into a sappy, gravelling wimp that BEGS people to love Him & please worship Him.
Love doesn't come at the expense of His own majesty & righteousness.
They took from christians the scripture and changed it to their liking. Constantine the Great, who proclaimed himself head of the Christian Church, was at the same time the Pagan high priest.Did the Catholic church write the NT??? People also claim that the Trinity came from PAGAN origins too - when it did not.
Satan COPIES what is true - you have an unholy "trinity" in Revelation: Satan, the false prophet and the antichrist - all 3 working against God's kingdom.
It doesn't mean pagans made it up, THEY TOOK WHAT WAS ALREADY TRUE ABOUT GOD AND MIMICKED IT.
Satan copies and corrupts what is good.
Satan didn't KNOW it was called Hell? Satan didn't KNOW to put it into the minds of the unsaved to use a real name or concept and corrupt it with something false?
What you're saying doesn't NULLIFY what's written plainly in your bible. Unless now you're claiming that the entire NT is corrupted by paganism?
But when reading a parabol a person must be careful not to be to literal.What about the dead sea scrolls? Don't they pretty much line up with what we find in Scripture today? And those were sealed up for over some 2000 years.
Not so actually.... what of the Prodigal son? That HAS been a literal occurance.But when reading a parabol a person must be careful not to be to literal.
Ahhh now we're getting somewhere.They took from christians the scripture and changed it to their liking. Constantine the Great, who proclaimed himself head of the Christian Church, was at the same time the Pagan high priest.
I believe the bible is about 99% accurate. And this is what I also believe. Sample of my own translation of Jude 1-6.Ahhh now we're getting somewhere.
Do you reject the entire bible as truth? or the NT??
What do accept from the Bible as true?
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