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There is no hell. (2)

Mikecpking

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That rendering is probably correct in the niv, but that doesn't detract from the fact that the lake of fire is the end result, ie hell.

I think it is a question of definitions.

As 'hell' is thrown into the lake of fire (hades), we would have to give it a seperate label. Hence the lake of fire.

The end result is is 'destruction' and 'death' and one could argue that after a certain time in the lake of fire only after God's wrath has been satisfied; annihilation. But for the beast, false prophet and the devil non stop torment. There does seem a case for those who accept the mark of the beast and worship the image that they too would suffer the same endless fate of the devil and the false prophet etc (rev 14)
 
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98cwitr

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Greek word used in the lexicon is αδης

αδης hadēs Thayer Definition: 1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions 2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead 3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell The real meaning of the word is "the grave." "Hell" came into use later by the Greeks and their concepts of the place of the dead. The old King James often translates the word as "hell" while the New King James translates it as Hades, again a transliterated word, but an improvement over hell.


It's transliterated as such because in Greek and Roman culture there was no word for Hell, thus as transliterated, Hell and Hades are synonymous in the English language and only separated (other than actually spelling) by acknowledgement of Greek culture verses Christian culture. We can decide for ourselves as the NT describes what Hell is.
 
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ARBITER01

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I think it is a question of definitions.

As 'hell' is thrown into the lake of fire (hades), we would have to give it a seperate label. Hence the lake of fire.

The end result is is 'destruction' and 'death' and one could argue that after a certain time in the lake of fire only after God's wrath has been satisfied; annihilation. But for the beast, false prophet and the devil non stop torment. There does seem a case for those who accept the mark of the beast and worship the image that they too would suffer the same endless fate of the devil and the false prophet etc (rev 14)

Wait a minute, you just said that it is defined as the grave, which is it?
 
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98cwitr

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I felt it needed to be said more than once.

I felt it needed to be said more than once.

fry-see-what-you-did-there.jpg
 
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Mikecpking

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Wait a minute, you just said that it is defined as the grave, which is it?

'hell' is what the KJV renders hades as. 'Hades' or sheol is the abode of the dead where in death, a person i)s in a new state of existence as 'rephaim' (psalm 88, Job 3, Isiah 14 awaiting resurrection before the final judgement.
 
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Der Alte

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Hey instead of all this bickering about "Hades = grave" why dont yall all turn your attention to Matthew 25 and Jude 1. Holler back after you have read these.

Bintheredunthatgotthetshirtdontfit.
 
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ARBITER01

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'hell' is what the KJV renders hades as. 'Hades' or sheol is the abode of the dead where in death, a person i)s in a new state of existence as 'rephaim' (psalm 88, Job 3, Isiah 14 awaiting resurrection before the final judgement.

Sorry, that wreaks of universalism, of which our bible denounces.

If a segment of the population shall "never" receive the kingdom of GOD, then that is what it means. There is no grey area there.
 
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Der Alte

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'hell' is what the KJV renders hades as. 'Hades' or sheol is the abode of the dead where in death, a person i)s in a new state of existence as 'rephaim' (psalm 88, Job 3, Isiah 14 awaiting resurrection before the final judgement.

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9)
Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18)
Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30)
There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Also in the NT Jesus speaking about a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
Luk 16:22-28
(22)
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​
 
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Timothew

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As I have said to you many times, Isaiah and Ezekiel are writing about dead people. See Isaiah 14:18-20 NASB
All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
Each in his own tomb.

19“But you have been cast out of your tomb
Like a rejected branch,
Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit
Like a trampled corpse. 20“You will not be united with them in burial,
Because you have ruined your country,
You have slain your people.
May the offspring of evildoers not be mentioned forever.
Plus we've already discussed the talking trees of verse 8.

See Ezekiel 32:22 "her graves are all around her, All of them are slain, fallen by the sword."
 
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Der Alte

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As I have said to you many times, Isaiah and Ezekiel are writing about dead people. See Isaiah 14:18-20 NASB

Plus we've already discussed the talking trees of verse 8.

Please explain to me how the use of one figure of speech, e.g. "talking trees," which can easily be proven, proves that anything else in a passage is figurative? When Jesus called Herod a fox, Peter a rock, James and John sons of thunder, did that make everything he said a figure of speech? Isaiah 14 is about the death of the king of Babylon. We know that Nebuchadnezzar literally died, was literally buried, and the worms literally covered his body. Of course Isa 14:9-11 and Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 are writing about dead people! That is the point, the dead in sheol move, speak, recognize people, have emotions, etc. Do you not believe that the wages of sin is death, destruction, annihilation, they cease to exist, etc.

See Ezekiel 32:22 "her graves are all around her, All of them are slain, fallen by the sword."

What is your point?
 
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Mikecpking

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Sorry, that wreaks of universalism, of which our bible denounces.

If a segment of the population shall "never" receive the kingdom of GOD, then that is what it means. There is no grey area there.

WHere do you get 'universalism' in my post from? Everyone gets resurrected at the end and face judgement(Dan 12:2), and some will have eternal life and the ones that don't get thrown into the lake of fire to be destroyed.
 
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Mikecpking

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In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Also in the NT Jesus speaking about a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Your point?

Don't forget the talking trees in Isiah 14:8!
 
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ARBITER01

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WHere do you get 'universalism' in my post from? Everyone gets resurrected at the end and face judgement(Dan 12:2), and some will have eternal life and the ones that don't get thrown into the lake of fire to be destroyed.

Sorry, they are not in a "new state of existence," they are spiritually dead.
 
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Timothew

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Please explain to me how the use of one figure of speech, e.g. "talking trees," which can easily be proven, proves that anything else in a passage is figurative?

What is your point?
The point is that we know Isaiah used figures of speech so it is misleading at best to insist that the rest of the passage must be taken literally. Isaiah said "you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon."

So these passages don't prove that dead people walk around and speak. It has also been my experience that dead people don't get up and move around.
 
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