There is no hell. (2)

[papaJP]

Why do Christians continue to debate hell when God himself said it exist and He has the keys to hell.

As my wife told a priest once who questioned hell's existance and that all would go to heaven -- If you do not believe in hell then you cannot believe in God. You can not pick and choose what you want to believe.

 

[Timothew]

Why do Christians continue to debate hell when God himself said it exist and He has the keys to hell.

As my wife told a priest once who questioned hell's existance and that all would go to heaven -- If you do not believe in hell then you cannot believe in God. You can not pick and choose what you want to believe.

Very well then, that settles it. However, could you please provide the scripture reference that says that hell is a place that damned spirits of humans go to be tortured for all of eternity?

Why do some Christians continue to say that hell is a place of eternal torture when Jesus himself said that whosoever believes in Him would have eternal life and whosoever denied Him would perish? For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Why do some Christians continue to say the lost live forever in torture when Jesus said "unless you repent, you too will all perish"? (Luke 13:3 NIV)

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, "the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life." (Romans 6:23)

James, also writing by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, "when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." (James 1:15)

Peter said that the day of judgement is a day of destruction for ungodly men. (2 Peter 3:7)

John said that whoever has the Son of God has life and whoever does not have the Son of God does not have eternal life. (1 John 5:12)

Why do some Christians continue to hold on to their preconceived ideas about hell when the bible teaches otherwise?

Tim

 

[ivebeenshown]

Why do some Christians continue to hold on to their preconceived ideas about hell when the bible teaches otherwise?

Tim

Maybe because the bible teaches this:

Revelation 14
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Der Alte]

Very well then, that settles it. However, could you please provide the scripture reference that says that hell is a place that damned spirits of humans go to be tortured for all of eternity?

Why do some Christians continue to say that hell is a place of eternal torture when Jesus himself said that whosoever believes in Him would have eternal life and whosoever denied Him would perish? For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Why do some Christians continue to say the lost live forever in torture when Jesus said "unless you repent, you too will all perish"? (Luke 13:3 NIV)

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, "the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life." (Romans 6:23)

James, also writing by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, "when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." (James 1:15)

Peter said that the day of judgement is a day of destruction for ungodly men. (2 Peter 3:7)

John said that whoever has the Son of God has life and whoever does not have the Son of God does not have eternal life. (1 John 5:12)

Why do some Christians continue to hold on to their preconceived ideas about hell when the bible teaches otherwise?

Why do some people continue to quote their handful of out-of-context proof texts when they have been proven wrong from scripture, from lexicons, and from history?

For example the word translated "perish" in Luke 13:3, ἀπόλλυμι refers to Galileans whose blood had been mixed with the sacrifice. And here is the definition from the online BAGD. Note the range of meaning, ruin, death, destroy wisdom of the wise, lose a reward, what has been worked for, lose one's self, disaster at sea, die by sword and snake, fading beauty, passing splendor, losing hair or a body part, spoiling honey, food and wine, etc.

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).

1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).

2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a.of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. of men killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12 . Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​

And after death is the judgment.

 

[Timothew]

Np

 

[Timothew]

Why do some people continue to quote their handful of out-of-context proof texts when they have been proven wrong from scripture, from lexicons, and from history?

For example the word translated "perish" in Luke 13:3, ἀπόλλυμι refers to Galileans whose blood had been mixed with the sacrifice. And here is the definition from the online BAGD. Note the range of meaning, ruin, death, destroy wisdom of the wise, lose a reward, what has been worked for, lose one's self, disaster at sea, die by sword and snake, fading beauty, passing splendor, losing hair or a body part, spoiling honey, food and wine, etc.

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
​

1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).

2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a.of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. of men killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12 . Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker
​

And after death is the judgment.

You are twisting the meaning of ἀπόλλυμι if you say that it doesn't mean perish.

Also, you haven't addressed Paul's statement that the wages of sin is death (θάνατο&#962 or James statement that sin begets death (θάνατο&#957.

Or are you planning on telling me that thanatos actually means eternal life in hell?

Don't forget Peter who said that the ungodly are destroyed, and John who said that only those who have the Son of God have eternal life.

 

[Timothew]

Maybe because the bible teaches this:

Revelation 14
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here's a note from my NIV Study Bible in the Introduction to Revelation:

For an adequate understanding of Revelation, the reader must recognize that it is a distinct kind of literature. Revelation is apocalyptic, a kind of writing that is highly symbolic.

Zondervan NIV Study Bible

 

[agape101]

Maybe because the bible teaches this:

Revelation 14
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

the bible isn't teaching anything; you are. And you are propagating a misleading rendering.

Aionas ton aionon is not "forever and ever" it's literally "into the age of the ages."

"ever and ever" is redundant and the word "aionon" (ages) is plural.... and there is no such thing as "evers.' and "ever of the evers" doesn't work either.

its funny how aion has been translated into age and ever and eternity and world all by the same hands.

 

[agape101]

Why do some people continue to quote their handful of out-of-context proof texts when they have been proven wrong from scripture, from lexicons, and from history?

For example the word translated "perish" in Luke 13:3, ἀπόλλυμι refers to Galileans whose blood had been mixed with the sacrifice. And here is the definition from the online BAGD. Note the range of meaning, ruin, death, destroy wisdom of the wise, lose a reward, what has been worked for, lose one's self, disaster at sea, die by sword and snake, fading beauty, passing splendor, losing hair or a body part, spoiling honey, food and wine, etc.

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).

1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).

2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a.of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. of men killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12 . Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​

And after death is the judgment.

the Whole-ruin of a sinful, fleshly person is a necessary part of the process. that's what discipline is for. that's what the lake of fire is for.

Just a step in the process of a loving father; not a goal of a torturing tyrant.

 

[ARBITER01]

Here's a note from my NIV Study Bible in the Introduction to Revelation:
Zondervan NIV Study Bible

So you are attempting to say that what is written is not truth? Or that you can't begin to understand it because it is too apocalyptic for you?

Lolol,..

Anyways, Paul makes mention several times about how a certain segment of our population will not make it to heaven,..

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they which practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Not as in "never," the Greek is specific here.

Now if you want to think they will just be floating around in space or something like that, you most certainly can, but our apostles taught that they will join satan and his demons, and I choose to listen to what they taught, not go off of extra biblical junk out of you or anybody else.

 

[ivebeenshown]

the bible isn't teaching anything; you are. And you are propagating a misleading rendering.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Timothew]

So you are attempting to say that what is written is not truth? Or that you can't begin to understand it because it is too apocalyptic for you?

Lolol,..

Anyways, Paul makes mention several times about how a certain segment of our population will not make it to heaven,..

Not as in "never," the Greek is specific here.

Now if you want to think they will just be floating around in space or something like that, you most certainly can, but our apostles taught that they will join satan and his demons, and I choose to listen to what they taught, not go off of extra biblical junk out of you or anybody else.

Have I ever said anything like what you are saying?
The Book of Revelation is Apocalyptic, everyone agrees with this. Theology from the Book of Revelation must agree with theology from the rest of the bible.
"Or that you can't begin to understand it," there is no need for anyone to be nasty, OK?
Paul says that a certain segment will not make it into heaven, I agree, but Paul does NOT say that anyone will torture these unforunate sinners for all of eternity, on the contrary, Paul has said that they will die in their sins.
"Now if you want to think they will just be floating around in space or something like that," Where do you get this junk from? Do you think I said it? Have I said anything that is unbiblical? Can you show me an example?
And if "our apostles taught that they will join satan and his demons," could you give the Chapter and Verse?

 

[ARBITER01]

Have I ever said anything like what you are saying?
The Book of Revelation is Apocalyptic, everyone agrees with this. Theology from the Book of Revelation must agree with theology from the rest of the bible.
"Or that you can't begin to understand it," there is no need for anyone to be nasty, OK?
Paul says that a certain segment will not make it into heaven, I agree, but Paul does NOT say that anyone will torture these unforunate sinners for all of eternity, on the contrary, Paul has said that they will die in their sins.
"Now if you want to think they will just be floating around in space or something like that," Where do you get this junk from? Do you think I said it? Have I said anything that is unbiblical? Can you show me an example?
And if "our apostles taught that they will join satan and his demons," could you give the Chapter and Verse?

This is just one mention of it,..

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication, and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Since they do not inherit the kingdom of GOD, and will never inherit that kingdom according to the Greek, then there is only one other place mentioned in the bible for them to possibly go.

Do the math.

 

[Der Alte]

You are twisting the meaning of ἀπόλλυμι if you say that it doesn't mean perish.

I am twisting NOTHING! That is why I posted the entire definition and provided a link, just so that accusation cannot be made. Because of the wide range of meaning, if you think appolumi means totally perish, no longer existing, etc., in a particular verse, then you must prove, NOT assume it! And we both know you have no such proof only your assumptions/prsuppositions!

Also, you haven't addressed Paul's statement that the wages of sin is death (θάνατο&#962 or James statement that sin begets death (θάνατο&#957.

Or are you planning on telling me that thanatos actually means eternal life in hell?

I most certainly did address your 1-2 out-of-context proof texts, in my final sentence. You are correct the wages of sin is death, but that does NOT mean to cease to exist! Here it is again, nb "death" then "judgment!"

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

Don't forget Peter who said that the ungodly are destroyed, and John who said that only those who have the Son of God have eternal life.

Here is the definition of the word taht Peter used in 2 Pet 2:12.

G5356 φθορά phthora
Thayer Definition:
1) corruption, destruction, perishing1a) that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable1b) in the Christian sense, eternal misery in hell2) in the NT, in an ethical sense, corruption, i.e. moral decay
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5351
Citing in TDNT: 9:93, 1259​

See immediately above. Several passages clearly show some kind of conscious awareness in sheol/hades, immediately following death. Isa 14:9-11, Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31in which God, himself, is speaking and Luke 16:19-31, in which Jesus himself is speaking. You will attempt to blow them off as parables or figures of speech but once again you must PROVE not assume that. And OBTW the Jewish Encyclopedia and the early chruch fathers supports my view.

 

[Timothew]

This is just one mention of it,..



Since they do not inherit the kingdom of GOD, and will never inherit that kingdom according to the Greek, then there is only one other place mentioned in the bible for them to possibly go.

Do the math.

Is it the grave?

 

[ARBITER01]

Is it the grave?

Doubtful since GOD was specific about the dead,..

Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

Is that too apocalyptic for you?

 

[Mikecpking]

Doubtful since GOD was specific about the dead,..



Is that too apocalyptic for you?

The lake of fire is not hell. It is the place where all the unsaved, the devil and false prophet is thrown into.
The topic is 'there is no hell', but it does not mean then that there is no punishment or destruction of the unsaved.

 

[ARBITER01]

The lake of fire is not hell. It is the place where all the unsaved, the devil and false prophet is thrown into.
The topic is 'there is no hell', but it does not mean then that there is no punishment or destruction of the unsaved.

Sorry, that is hell, not some grave. There is no in between place with GOD listed in our bibles, you are either in Christ or still of the devil.

 

[Mikecpking]

Sorry, that is hell, not some grave. There is no in between place with GOD listed in our bibles, you are either in Christ or still of the devil.

Rev 20:14 KJV

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death

Rev 20:14 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death

Hades is rendered 'grave' in the NIV in Acts 2:29-34. How can hell be thrown into itself?

 

[ARBITER01]

Rev 20:14 KJV

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death

Rev 20:14 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death

Hades is rendered 'grave' in the NIV in Acts 2:29-34. How can hell be thrown into itself?

That rendering is probably correct in the niv, but that doesn't detract from the fact that the lake of fire is the end result, ie hell.