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Der Alte

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penalty Synonym

I thought those were synonyms.

You may be partially right! But the word that Jesus used was κόλασις/Kolasis. Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said. If Jesus had meant to say death that is exactly what he would have said! He would not have used a word which does not carry in it meaning, "death!" Here is the definition from the online Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich -Danker lexicon. "Death" is NOT one of the definitions!
κόλασις, εως , ἡ punishment (so Hippocr. +; Diod. S. 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian , V.H. 7, 15; Dit., Syll. 2 680, 13; LXX ; Philo , Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos. , Ant. 17, 164; Sib. Or. 5, 388).

1. lit. k. uJpomevnein undergo punishment GOxy 6; deinai; k. (4 Macc 8:9 ) MPol 2:4; hJ ejpivmono" k. long-continued torture ibid. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. Of the martyrdom of Jesus PK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices ironically described as punishment, injury (s. kolavzw ) Dg 2:9.

2. of divine retribution ( Diod. S. 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80[30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX ; Philo , Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos. , Ant. 1, 60 al. ): w. aijkismov" 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal damnation ( w. qavnato" ) Dg 9:2 ( Diod. S. 8, 15, 1 k. ajqavnato" ). Of hell: tovpo" kolavsew" AP 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 eij" ejkei`non to;n tovpon aiJ kolavsew" deovmenai yucai; katapevmpontai). ajpevrcesqai eij" k. aijwvnion go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 ; MPol 11:2 ( k. aij. as Test. Reub. 5:5, Ash. 7:5; Celsus 8, 48). rJuvesqai ejk th`" aijwnivou k. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. th;n aijwvnion k. ejxagoravzesqai buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. k. tino" punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3 , 4 , 7 ; 18:30 ; Philo , Fuga 65 aJmarthmavtwn k.) e[cein kovlasivn tina th`" ponhriva" aujtou` Hs 9, 18, 1. oJ fovbo" kovlasin e[cei fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 ( cf. Phil o, In Flacc. 96 fovbo" kolavsew" ). M-M. *

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker

That's just it, the 'wiggle room' is that the death could never end, without any more resurrection. The eternal life could last forever and the 'eternal death' could last forever, that is, if death is indeed the punishment.

Dead is dead, the word or concept of "eternal" is meaningless to a dead person. Did those who heard Jesus say "eternal punishment" think that he was talking about some kind of death that was more severe than regular death? Let us review how the early church who were native speakers of Koine Greek understood "eternal punishment?" None of the ECF say "eternal punishment" means "death!"
Ignatius of Antioch

"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement

"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).

Justin Martyr

"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Mathetes

"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).

Athenagoras

"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Theophilus of Antioch

"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])

Irenaeus

"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).

Tertullian

"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).

"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).

Hippolytus

"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).

Minucius Felix

"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

Lactantius

"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

 
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Timothew

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I want to know what THE BIBLE has to say about hell.

There is a lot in this that is simply untrue. Why should I care what these people believed?
 
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Timothew

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For instance, Cyprian

Cyprian contradicts HIMSELF in this quote:
The condemned will be devoured and consumed and yet they will also be preserved.

If I devour and consume my cake, can I also preserve it? This guy wants to have his cake and eat it too!
 
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Der Alte

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I want to know what THE BIBLE has to say about hell.

There is a lot in this that is simply untrue. Why should I care what these people believed?

I have answered this before and all you did was argue about one verse in the series I posted and ignore the rest, here! just as you ignored the 39 scripture in the post you responded to with this post!

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9)
Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18)
Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30)
There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
 
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Der Alte

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Yet you argue that "eternal punishment" and "death" are synonymous! Pot-kettle!

And OBTW the correct expression is "eat your cake and have it too!" Anybody can have their cake and eat it. Dudley Moore, Arthur.
 
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Timothew

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Yet you argue that "eternal punishment" and "death" are synonymous! Pot-kettle!

And OBTW the correct expression is "eat your cake and have it too!" Anybody can have their cake and eat it. Dudley Moore, Arthur.

How is death NOT an eternal punishment? Would it be temporary?

And OBTW, the expression can be stated either way:
To have one's cake and eat it too is a popular English idiomatic proverb or figure of speech, sometimes stated as eat one's cake and have it too or simply have one's cake and eat it.
wikipedia

Either way, Cyprian contradicts himself by saying that those who are consumed will also be preserved.
 
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Der Alte

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How is death NOT an eternal punishment? Would it be temporary?

And OBTW, the expression can be stated either way:
wikipedia

Either way, Cyprian contradicts himself by saying that those who are consumed will also be preserved.

The contradiction is only in your mind! Does death occur repeatedly throughout eternity? If Jesus meant the fate of the unrighteous was death, cessation of existence, that is exactly what he would have said. He would not have used deceptive, unclear language! And we do not have any organized body of professed believers claiming otherwise until the late 19th century. . There is no contradiction in Origen. He does not state one thing in one place and something else in another place. Your imagined contradiction occurs in contiguous sentences. Note that three sentences show that the punishment is, "without respite,""will not be at an end," "their bodies will be preserved,""unlimited agonies,""without fruit of repentance,""weeping useless,""prayer ineffectual,""too late will they believe in eternal punishment."
An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life"​
 
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ivebeenshown

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Just curious Der Alter, what do you think of Paul when he writes 'destruction from the presence of the Lord' and of the times where Jesus says 'cast into outer darkness' as opposed to what it says in Revelation about being 'tormented in the presence of the Lamb.'

EDIT: Nevermind, duh, Paul is saying that the brightness of the Lord's glory would be a consuming hell fire to those who are lost. Also, outer darkness must be a term just used for that parable.
Compare to:
It's the same grammar, 'from' would mean 'because of', like 'he died from cancer'.

 
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Timothew

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I don't understand why you think that a death must be repeated throughout eternity in order for the death to be eternal. If a person dies, and they haven't received eternal life from God, that death continues for all eternity. Where is the contradiction?
 
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Kepha

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For instance, Cyprian

Cyprian contradicts HIMSELF in this quote:
The condemned will be devoured and consumed and yet they will also be preserved.

If I devour and consume my cake, can I also preserve it? This guy wants to have his cake and eat it too!

"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

The Church's position agrees with Cyprian.

Both will be preserved while suffereing the torments of Hell.
We are human beings 'meant' to have a Spirit and Body. We will likewise be taking them both into Heaven or Hell after Christ returns.
 
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Rick Otto

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It contradicts the association of judgement with wrath & the extremety 'wrath' invokes, I guess.
 
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Timothew

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Does "The Church" agree with Cyprian's assertion that the condemned are devoured and consumed, or his position that they are preserved?

One year my garden did well in tomatoes. I devoured tomatoes. I consumed tomatoes. I had too many tomatoes to eat, so I preserved some of them. I didn't can the tomatoes which I had already eaten.
 
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Der Alte

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Still misrepresenting Cyprian as if by doing so you can disprove what he said, along with all the other early church fathers. Wonder if Cyprian could have meant those in Gehenna are consumed by pain or agony, remorse, sorrow, regret, etc?
 
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Mikecpking

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Still misrepresenting Cyprian as if by doing so you can disprove what he said, along with all the other early church fathers. Wonder if Cyprian could have meant those in Gehenna are consumed by pain or agony, remorse, sorrow, regret, etc?

Hi Der Alter,
Not one of the quotes you mention 'Hell', but clear references to the lake of fire.
 
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Der Alte

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Hi Der Alter,
Not one of the quotes you mention 'Hell', but clear references to the lake of fire.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
 
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Kepha

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Does "The Church" agree with Cyprian's assertion that the condemned are devoured and consumed, or his position that they are preserved?
The Church would agree if one were to say that the souls in Hell are devoured and consumed in the sense that He's using a figuratively harsh statement to get the point across where there will be an overwhelming sense of pain and anguish on the body and soul of the damned. Not that they're completely gone and no longer exist as you are asserting that St. Cyprian is suggesting then later so foolishly contradicting.
 
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ivebeenshown

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When a crack addict or a heroin addict uses their drug to where they are deteriorating and aching, they are undergoing destruction even though they have not yet died. When a person is having their leg gnawed off by a shark, or sets themselves on fire in public in the fashion of certain Buddhist monks, they are being consumed and devoured even before their moment of death. Therefore, the argument that 'everlasting destruction' must mean annihilation due to a chosen definition of the word 'destruction' is insufficient.
 
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Der Alte

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Tim insists on misrepresenting Cyprian.
Cyprian of Carthage

"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).​
 
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