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The scripture you are referring to does say "the wages of sin is death" but it does not say "(not hell)!" That is opinion, commentary!
And while it is true that the wages of sin is death, scripture also says "It is appointed unto men once to die after that the judgment."
Der Alter said:The scripture you are referring to does say "the wages of sin is death" but it does not say "(not hell)!" That is opinion, commentary!
And while it is true that the wages of sin is death, scripture also says "It is appointed unto men once to die after that the judgment."
My interlinear Greek text does not have the word "hell" anywhere in it.... why?
Why do we care what the Jewish or Christian orthodoxy holds to be true? Who had Jesus killed? Why do i care what jewish scholars interpret? I don't care. they got it wrong with Jesus and they had him killed. And Christian orthodoxy is no better. Just traditions of men.... I don't think they have bad intent, just think the pool is tainted from the get go when it comes to man's involvement.
what happens when death and hell are cast into the lake of fire?
I looked up "judgment" in the dictionary and I couldn't find where it says: Judgment = unending torture...
The wages of sin is death. . . but it does not end there because death is followed by judgment, and judgment is followed by reward or punishment. Note the scripture does NOT say the wages of sin is two deaths!
Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!
The wages of sin is death. . . but it does not end there because death is followed by judgment, and judgment is followed by reward or punishment. Note the scripture does NOT say the wages of sin is two deaths!
Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!
The wages of sin is death. . . but it does not end there because death is followed by judgment, and judgment is followed by reward or punishment. Note the scripture does NOT say the wages of sin is two deaths!
Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!http://www.christianforums.com/t7478690/#post55092356http://www.christianforums.com/t7478690/#post55092356
The Wages of sin is death is a reference to the second death.
The wages of sin is death. . . but it does not end there because death is followed by judgment, and judgment is followed by reward or punishment. Note the scripture does NOT say the wages of sin is two deaths!
Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!http://www.christianforums.com/t7478690/#post55092356http://www.christianforums.com/t7478690/#post55092356
Eternal punishment is eternal death. It is not eternal punishing! The punishment is eternal death, not eternal suffering.
Eternal life = eternal living.... One cannot have life unless one is living. Therefore the reward has no end!The reward for the righteous must end at some point because the Bible says "Eternal Life" NOT "Eternal Living!"
Eternal life = eternal living.... One cannot have life unless one is living. Therefore the reward has no end!
Eternal death = eternal death. God will never resurrect them again.Therefore the punishment has no end!
What about the talking trees in Isiah 14:8? Are they literal too?Equivocation! If eternal life = eternal living then eternal punishment must equal eternal punishing!
Circular argument! The Bible NEVER states "eternal death!" The phrase is "eternal punishment." Jesus said what he meant and meant what the said. If Jesus had intended to say "eternal death" that is what he would have said!
In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Equivocation! If eternal life = eternal living then eternal punishment must equal eternal punishing!
Circular argument! The Bible NEVER states "eternal death!" The phrase is "eternal punishment." Jesus said what he meant and meant what the said. If Jesus had intended to say "eternal death" that is what he would have said!
In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
What about the talking trees in Isiah 14:8? Are they literal too?
I can understand how you see it.... After all, you seem to prefer enternal arguing, than end a lost argument!Equivocation! If eternal life = eternal living then eternal punishment must equal eternal punishing!
I can understand how you see it.... After all, you seem to prefer enternal arguing, than end a lost argument!
It is astonishing that it is so hard for people to see what is written. The doctrine of eternal torment is so ingrained that the eyes pass right over the words. Look at Number 16:33 again:hell - hades - ghenna....
sons of Korah swallowed up
Lazarus and rich man
Lazarus the friend of Jesus
he that ascended, first descended
- Exodus 15:12
Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.
Exodus 15:11-13 (in Context) Exodus 15 (Whole Chapter)
- Numbers 16:33
They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
Numbers 16:32-34 (in Context) Numbers 16 (Whole Chapter)- Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 19:19-21 (in Context) Revelation 19 (Whole Chapter)
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