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There is A flood Story that is OLDER than both bibles

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by drom, Sep 17, 2002.

  1. Sky

    Sky Active Member

    603
    +0
    Ezekiel 14:9 was taken out of context. It does not mean that God decieves anyone.
     
  2. Morat

    Morat Untitled One

    +2
    Atheist
      Well, Sky, you're still stuck. Either the Earth is wrong or the Bible is. But it's pretty obvious from just looking around that the only people who think the Earth is 10,000 years old are those whose religion requires it.

     
     
  3. Sky

    Sky Active Member

    603
    +0
    The earth is billons of years old, and the Bible never says the earth is 10,000 years old.
     
  4. Sky

    Sky Active Member

    603
    +0
    Some things in the Bible are symbolic and are not meant to be taken literally. YEC's take everything in the Bible literally.
     
  5. D. Scarlatti

    D. Scarlatti Well-Known Member

    +82
    Atheist
    Sky: "The Christian God and the Jewish God are one of the same. "

    Isn't Jesus the Christian God? Or one of the three-in-one Christian Gods?

    P.S. Maybe you're saying this because Jesus was Jewish?
     
  6. judge

    judge Regular Member

    153
    +0
    Christian
    Firstly Hi all...my first post here. :wave:

    This is really a response to the title of this thread which i presume refers to the babylonian version of the flood story, which is an older "document" so to speak.

    Although these tablets containig the flood story are older we should not be surprised by this. In fact we should expect it!

    Abraham himself was babylonian/chaldean. He was a direct descendent of Noah. The babylonians were descendents of Noah. They all knew about this event. :cool:
     
  7. Live!

    Live! ex-creationist

    70
    +0
    Other Religion
    Single
    US-Democrat
    And the Flood is 100% true, not a myth, not a symbol, but true. How do I

    know this? Becase the Holy Bible, the inerrant word of God, said it.
     
  8. Caffeine Socialism

    Caffeine Socialism Imagine all the people.

    380
    +0
    Wow. I'm convinced.
     
  9. kitten

    kitten Member

    335
    +1
    As a literature teacher at a university affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, I offer as a research paper the topic of various accounts of the Great Flood - the Epic of Gilgamesh (a Mesopotamian account written before Genesis), Genesis, and Ovid's Metamorphoses (ancient Rome) all give accounts of a worldwide flood because of angry god(s). In each case, only 2 humans are left in the world, and they repopulate the world in various ways.

    The separate accounts lead one to the conclusion that there was a great regional flood, and archaeologists have found evidence to back up such an assertion.

    So why's the Bible the right version of events?

     

    (btw, the University has to approve my syllabus - they have no problem with this essay topic - wonder why?)
     
  10. blader

    blader Evilutionist

    809
    +0
    Kitten:

    I do believe that there's serious evidence for a regional flood near the Mesopotamia area, but I find the Bible's account of it, that the waters went several feet above Mt. Everest, to be highly improbable, to say the least.
     
  11. Late_Cretaceous

    Late_Cretaceous <font color="#880000" ></font&g

    +106
    Catholic
    "Becase the Holy Bible, the inerrant word of God, said it."

    Why do you think the bible is inerrant?
    Why do you think the bible is the "word of God"?
     
  12. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    Okay this topic was about how the Biblical story of the flood in Genesis is not true because there is a story much older that is similiar but I have not seen any evidence that it is unytru. and this pg. 8.

    What was brought up is the Gligamesh epic and that it was older so the Bible had to copy it but no one offered any real evidence of it. There was one who said that supposedly the Jews copied the Gilgamesh epic when they were in Babylon but I find that no likely since I do not see how it could have been written that late and found credibility with the people as the truth.

    Someone brought up evolution vs. the 6 day creation story but that provers nothing since the no one really knows if the story in Genesis is speaking of a 6 day creation about 10,000 years ago or one that is much older. The main point in Genesis 1 is not How God created the world but that God did create the world.

    So where is this evidence that the Bible copied the flood story from the Gilgamesh epic? More than one flood stories seems to me to say that there is more of a chance that it is true. Of course I can't prove that it is true just like anything from that long ago I cannot. However I find more evidence for me to believe in its truth than not to believe in it but in the end I must accept it by faith.

    blackhawk
     
  13. kitten

    kitten Member

    335
    +1
    -There are 3 documented versions of a "worldwide" flood (keeping in mind that at that time people didn't know the real size of the world).
    -Archaeological evidence supports a great regional flood in that area at that time in history.
    -Therefore, one can logically deduce from these *very basic reduction of the facts* that
    (a) a flood did in fact occur
    (b) at least 3 cultures recorded an account of that event
    (c) the cultures' accounts are similar
    (d) because there are 3 separate accounts, the Genesis account cannot be the Only True, Inerrant Record of the events.
    (e) the Genesis accounting of those events is *no less valid than the other two*
     
  14. Live!

    Live! ex-creationist

    70
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    Other Religion
    Single
    US-Democrat
    The other documents only prove that the Genesis account is correct, and

    there was a worldwide flood.
     
  15. kitten

    kitten Member

    335
    +1
    The other documents only confirm that the Genesis account is not the only record of a "worldwide" (i.e. large region) flood.

    The details of Noah's instructions from God are not proven correct by those other documents and are therefore highly suspect as Absolute Truth, especially considering that the other two documents have similar plots (see my post above for details).

    Also, if you could provide information as to where I can research your assertion that there was in fact a worldwide, i.e. the entire globe, flood - other than the bible - I would appreciate it. I'm not being flip or sarcastic - if there's real research in support of your asserrtion, I would truly enjoy reading it.
     
  16. kitten

    kitten Member

    335
    +1
    blader:

    I'm in complete agreement with you.
     
  17. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    True. It does not prove the whole account is true in Genesis but does give credibility to a flood occurring. 



    That to me would be evidence that at least the details are close to being correct but not evidence that the details are absolutely correct.  But then again I do not see how one could say that it really means that the evidence really suggests that the details are not correct.  I mean the evidence for that is very thin if the reason why one is saying that is because there are two other similiar flood accounts but the details are different in the other 2.  Basically when it comes down to the exact details I do not see evidence either way when just looking at the flood accounts. 

    I think though the Biblical account is more credible when looking at the Bible as a whole but I do not offer this as proof of the Genesis version being correct just as evidence of it being more credible.  Again I can't prove any of this occured at all but is seems to me the most likely to say that the Biblical account occurred. 

    blackhawk

     
     
  18. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +43
    Jehovahs Witness
    The Flood in the Legends of the World
    THE Flood of Noah’s day was such a devastating cataclysm that mankind could never forget it. Over 2,400 years later, Jesus Christ spoke of it as a fact of history. (Matthew 24:37-39) This awesome event left such an indelible impression on the human race that it has become legendary all over the world.

    In the book Myths of Creation, Philip Freund estimates that over 500 Flood legends are told by more than 250 tribes and peoples. As might be expected, with the passing of many centuries, these legends have been greatly embellished with imaginary events and characters. In all of them, however, some basic similarities can be found.

    Striking Similarities
    As people migrated from Mesopotamia after the Flood, they carried accounts of the catastrophe to all parts of the earth. Thus, inhabitants of Asia, the islands of the South Pacific, North America, Central America, and South America have tales of this impressive event. The many Flood legends existed long before these people were exposed to the Bible. Yet, the legends have some basic points in common with the Biblical account of the Deluge.

    Some legends mention violent giants living on the earth before the Flood. Comparably, the Bible indicates that before the Deluge disobedient angels materialized fleshly bodies, cohabited with women, and produced a race of giants called Nephilim.—Genesis 6:1-4; 2 Peter 2:4, 5.

    Flood legends usually indicate that one man was warned about a coming deluge of divine origin. According to the Bible, Jehovah God warned Noah that He would destroy wicked and violent ones. God told Noah: “The end of all flesh has come before me, because the earth is full of violence as a result of them; and here I am bringing them to ruin together with the earth.” Genesis 6:13.

    Legends concerning the Flood generally indicate that it brought about global destruction. Similarly, the Bible says: “The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered. Everything in which the breath of the force of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.” Genesis 7:19, 22.

    Most Flood legends say that a man survived the Deluge along with one or more other persons. Many legends have him taking refuge in a boat he had built, and they have it land on a mountain. Comparably, the Scriptures say that Noah built an ark. They also state: “Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark kept on surviving.” (Genesis 6:5-8; 7:23) According to the Bible, after the Deluge “the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat,” where Noah and his family disembarked. (Genesis 8:4, 15-18) Legends also indicate that Flood survivors started to repopulate the earth, as the Bible shows that Noah’s family did. Genesis 9:1; 10:1.

    Ancient Flood Legends
    With the foregoing points in mind, let us consider some Flood legends. Suppose we begin with the Sumerians, an ancient people who inhabited Mesopotamia. Their version of the Deluge was found on a clay tablet unearthed in the ruins of Nippur. This tablet says that the Sumerian gods Anu and Enlil decided to destroy mankind with a giant flood. Being warned by the god Enki, Ziusudra and his family were able to survive in a huge boat.

    The Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh contains many details. According to it, Gilgamesh visited his ancestor Utnapishtim, who had been granted eternal life after surviving the Flood. In the ensuing conversation, Utnapishtim explained that he was told to build a ship and take cattle, wild beasts, and his family into it. He built the ship as a huge cube 200 feet [60 m] on each side, with six floors. He tells Gilgamesh that the storm lasted six days and six nights, and then he says: “When the seventh day arrived, the hurricane, the Deluge, the shock of battle was broken, which had smitten like an army. The sea became calm, the cyclone died away, the Deluge ceased. I looked upon the sea and the sound of voices had ended. And all mankind had turned to clay.”

    After the vessel grounded on Mount Nisir, Utnapishtim released a dove that returned to the boat when it could not find a resting-place. This was followed by a swallow that also returned. A raven was then released, and when it did not return, he knew that the water had subsided. Utnapishtim then released the animals and offered a sacrifice.

    This very old legend is somewhat similar to the Biblical account of the Flood. However, it lacks the graphic details and simplicity of the Bible account, and it does not give reasonable dimensions for the ark nor supply the time period indicated in the Scriptures. For instance, the Epic of Gilgamesh said that the storm lasted six days and six nights, whereas the Bible says that “the downpour upon the earth went on for forty days and forty nights”—a continuing heavy rain that finally covered the entire globe with water. Genesis 7:12.

    Though the Bible mentions eight Flood survivors, in Greek legend only Deucalion and his wife, Pyrrha, survived. (2 Peter 2:5) According to this legend, before the Flood the earth was inhabited by violent individuals called the men of bronze. The god Zeus decided to destroy them with a great flood and told Deucalion to build a large chest and get into it. When the flood subsided, the chest came to rest on Mount Parnassus. Deucalion and Pyrrha descended from the mountain and started mankind again.

    Legends of the Far East
    In India there is a Flood legend in which Manu is the human survivor. He befriends a small fish that grows to a large size and warns him of a devastating flood. Manu builds a boat, which the fish pulls until it is grounded on a mountain in the Himalayas. When the flood subsides, Manu descends from the mountain and with Ida, the personification of his sacrifice, renews the human race.

    According to the Chinese flood legend, the thunder god gives a tooth to two children, Nuwa and Fuxi. He instructs them to plant it and to take shelter in the gourd that would grow from it. A tree promptly grows from the tooth and produces a huge gourd. When the thunder god causes torrential rainfall, the children climb into the gourd. Though the resulting flood drowns all the rest of earth’s inhabitants, Nuwa and Fuxi survive and repopulate the globe.

    In the Americas
    Indians of North America have various legends that carry the common theme of a flood that destroys all but a few people. For example, the Arikara, a Caddo people, say that the earth was once inhabited by a race of people so strong that they ridiculed the gods. The god Nesaru destroyed these giants by means of a flood but preserved his people, the animals, and maize in a cave. The Havasupai people say that the god Hokomata caused a deluge that destroyed mankind. However, the man Tochopa preserved his daughter Pukeheh by sealing her in a hollow log.

    Indians in Central and South America have flood legends with basic similarities. The Maya of Central America believed that a great rain serpent destroyed the world by torrents of water. In Mexico the Chimalpopoca version tells that a flood submerged the mountains. The god Tezcatlipoca warned the man Nata, who hollowed out a log where he and his wife, Nena, found refuge until the water subsided.

    In Peru the Chincha have a legend of a five-day flood that destroyed all men except one whom a talking llama led to safety on a mountain. The Aymara of Peru and Bolivia say that the god Viracocha came out of Lake Titicaca and created the world and abnormally large, strong men. Because this first race angered him, Viracocha destroyed them with a flood.

    The Tupinamba Indians of Brazil spoke of a time when a great flood drowned all their ancestors except those who survived in canoes or in the tops of tall trees. The Cashinaua of Brazil, the Macushi of Guyana, the Caribs of Central America, and the Ona and Yahgan of Tierra del Fuego in South America are among the many tribes that have flood legends.

    South Pacific and Asia
    Throughout the South Pacific, legends of a flood with few surviving are common. For example, in Samoa there is a legend of a flood in early times that destroyed everyone except Pili and his wife. They found safety on a rock, and after the flood they repopulated the earth. In the Hawaiian Islands, the god Kane became annoyed with humans and sent a flood to destroy them. Only Nu'u escaped in a large boat that finally grounded on a mountain.

    On Mindanao in the Philippines, the Ata say that the earth was once covered by water that destroyed everyone except two men and a woman. The Iban of Sarawak, Borneo, say that only a few people escaped a deluge by fleeing to the highest hills. In the Igorot legend of the Philippines, only a brother and sister survived by taking refuge on Mount Pokis.

    The Soyot of Siberia, Russia, say that a giant frog, which was supporting the earth, moved and caused the globe to be flooded. An old man and his family survived on a raft he had made. When the water receded, the raft grounded on a high mountain. The Ugrians of western Siberia and Hungary also say that flood survivors used rafts but drifted to different parts of the earth.

    Common Origin
    What can we conclude from these many Flood legends? Though they differ greatly in details, they have some common features. These indicate an origin in some gigantic and unforgettable cataclysm. Despite vivid colorations over the centuries, their underlying theme is like a thread that ties them to one great event—the global Deluge related in the simple, uncolored Bible account.

    Since the Flood legends are generally found among people who did not come in touch with the Bible until recent centuries, it would be a mistake to contend that the Scriptural account influenced them. Moreover, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says: “The universality of the flood accounts is usually taken as evidence for the universal destruction of humanity by a flood . . . Moreover, some of the ancient accounts were written by people very much in opposition to the Hebrew-Christian tradition.” (Volume 2, page 319) So we can confidently conclude that the Flood legends confirm the reality of the Biblical account.

    Living as we do in a world filled with violence and immorality, we do well to read the Biblical account of the Flood, as recorded in Genesis chapters 6 through 8. If we meditate on the reason for that global Deluge—the practicing of what was wicked in God’s sight—we will see in it a vital warning.
     
  19. Hank

    Hank has the Right to be wrong

    +50
    Atheist
    CA-Conservatives
    Warning for what? Keep in mind each faith must have believed at one time or the other to be True Blue.
     
  20. Morat

    Morat Untitled One

    +2
    Atheist
    *cough**cough*PLAGERIST*cough*cough*VIOLATION OF FAIR USE*cough*cough*.

      Nice piece, Lightbringer. Copied whole from The Watchtower, p. 8, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc., Brooklyn, NY, January 15, 1992. At least, if this references the following quote correctly:

     
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