There Are Good People On Both Sides

[wing2000]

Thomas Jefferson never took up arms against the United States. We can recognize his virtues while recognizing him as a morally flawed human being. Whereas Robert E Lee has become an idol for white, rural, southern resentment. His actual personhood is probably irrelevent to the average klansman or skinhead.

Curiously, Robert E Lee was opposed to the monuments:


“It’s often forgotten that Lee himself, after the Civil War, opposed monuments, specifically Confederate war monuments,” said Jonathan Horn, the author of the Lee biography, “The Man Who Would Not Be Washington.”

Robert E. Lee opposed Confederate monuments

 

[GondwanaLand]

Read what was said, not what you wish it had said.



That is disgraceful to say, even in the overheated atmosphere of the moment.

I did read what he said. He point blank refused to call this the white supremacist terrorism that it was. Straight up. I don't give one single darned turd if it is "disgraceful" to call out a white supremacist apologist for his defense of his white supremacist Nazi supporters in your mind. I'm quite certain many felt it was disgraceful to call out the Nazis back when they were in power too.

 

[Allandavid]

What he said was that there were good people there protesting the removal of Robert E. Lee's statue. That is open to debate, but he did not say there are good Nazis, white supremacists, and KKK members. He is correct that there were leftists protesters there intent on violence. He is right about what statue is next. If Robert E. Lee can go, Thomas Jefferson should also.

Because Jefferson was found to be a traitor to the nation and who only escaped a death penalty due to a pardon....?

 

[mark46]

This will blow over in a week or two when Trump tweets or does something else outrageous, to intentionally change the subject, or just because he can.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

This will blow over in a week or two when Trump tweets or does something else outrageous, to intentionally change the subject, or just because he can.

Anti-Trumpers do seem to have a short attention span...

 

[MoonlessNight]

Conflict is probably the natural state of human society.

Under most theories of politics, the primary purpose of the state is to manage such conflicts. No one wants blood feuds and mob justice, at least no one who has any idea of what those things are actually like.

If the state can't perform that one purpose, then it's worthless. And anyone who advocates for internal conflicts is directly contributing to the corruption and fall of their nation.

 

[variant]

Under most theories of politics, the primary purpose of the state is to manage such conflicts. No one wants blood feuds and mob justice, at least no one who has any idea of what those things are actually like.

If the state can't perform that one purpose, then it's worthless. And anyone who advocates for internal conflicts is directly contributing to the corruption and fall of their nation.

Do you really think our state is set up to manage and defuse conflicts anymore?

 

[FireDragon76]

Do you really think our state is set up to manage and diffuse conflicts anymore?

Maybe that's something we need to work on. The ability to speak a common moral language, the stuff that usually allows a society to avoid violence and govern itself, seems to be decaying, for sure.

 

[variant]

Maybe that's something we need to work on. The ability to speak a common moral language, the stuff that usually allows a society to avoid violence and govern itself, seems to be decaying, for sure.

I don't know.

I don't think I'm ever going to start out with "there are good people on both sides" when we're talking about a white nationalist rally and the people who react violently to those.

If there were some people there simply genuinely upset that a statue was being removed, they missed the crowds of those marching along side them wanting to claim the symbol for their own racism.

 

[GondwanaLand]

I don't know.

I don't think I'm ever going to start out with "there are good people on both sides" when we're talking about a white nationalist rally and the people who react violently to those.

If there were some people there simply genuinely upset that a statue was being removed, they missed the crowds of those marching along side them wanting to claim the symbol for their own racism.

And the whole chanting of "Blood and Soil" and "Jews will not replace us", etc..

 

[szechuan]

Anti-Trumpers do seem to have a short attention span...

Can you really expect Anti-Trumpers to catch up with so much Bull from the Trump Administration almost every other day and every week?

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't know.

I don't think I'm ever going to start out with "there are good people on both sides" when we're talking about a white nationalist rally and the people who react violently to those.

I don't think Nazis are morally equivalent but you shouldn't go fight monsters by becoming a monster yourself. We can get rid of symbols of racism without carrying baseball bats, clubs, and without having to ambush skinheads.

 

[mark46]

Vice News just released chilling, must-watch footage from behind the Charlottesville battle lines.

Folks came from all over the country (and some from Canada) armed to the teeth to attend a unite the right rally. This was a union of KKK, neo-nazis, white nationalist and others. It was the largest such rally in two decades. Folks should look at the night before for the nice people the president was talking about.

 

[szechuan]

I don't think Nazis are morally equivalent but you shouldn't go fight monsters by becoming a monster yourself. We can get rid of symbols of racism without carrying baseball bats, clubs, and without having to ambush skinheads.

 

[szechuan]

Vice News just released chilling, must-watch footage from behind the Charlottesville battle lines.

Folks came from all over the country (and some from Canada) armed to the teeth to attend a unite the right rally. This was a union of KKK, neo-nazis, white nationalist and others. It was the largest such rally in two decades. Folks should look at the night before for the nice people the president was talking about.

what's sad is that on youtube the Alt-Right trolls and Alt-Right White nationalist fanbase has constantly attacked them for telling the truth while they're completely misrepresenting what Vox was saying. They resort to 4chan tactics by Negative Bombing the video and upping Comments in the group. They are for sure quite organized on that.

 

[mark46]

I don't think Nazis are morally equivalent but you shouldn't go fight monsters by becoming a monster yourself. We can get rid of symbols of racism without carrying baseball bats, clubs, and without having to ambush skinheads.

True enough.

You might look at the video, where a leader explained why the folks who hit the car were at fault because they didn't get out of the way.

Personally, I don't think it is wise to have anti-demonstrations. They are very dangerous, especially when dealing with domestic terrorists. They should have left everything to the police. BTW, what was in the mind of the mayor and council who authorized a rally of nazis from all over the country?

 

[variant]

I don't think Nazis are morally equivalent but you shouldn't go fight monsters by becoming a monster yourself. We can get rid of symbols of racism without carrying baseball bats, clubs, and without having to ambush skinheads.

Again we were talking about a "common moral language" and I can't really begin to discuss that with people who think there are good people marching along side by side with literal Nazi's.

I share your feelings on not resorting to violence.

Thinking we need to resort to violence to counter such an awful and stupid ideology legitimizes it more than necessary.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

BTW, what was in the mind of the mayor and council who authorized a rally of nazis from all over the country?

First Amendment says they have to if they allow organized gatherings in the park at all...

 

[mark46]

First Amendment says they have to if they allow organized gatherings in the park at all...

Nonsense.

I can't just call up the mayor of new york and force him to give me a rally to bring 1000 armed gunman into a park with nazi flags for a rally. Local governments have rights also.

I suspect that as a local government, I could ban nazi flags entirely from my jurisdiction. Obviously, this has been done in Germany.

 

[FireDragon76]

Again we were talking about a "common moral language" and I can't really begin to discuss that with people who think there are good people marching along side by side with literal Nazi's.

I see what you mean. I think we need to use different tactics in different circumstances. For those who reject civil discourse and human decency, we may just have to resort to the courts and to economic sanctions.