Theory on the origin of evil

[bling]

Correct.
A being that is all-good cannot create anything evil.
The bible says that God has no evil in Him.

Psalm 5:4
Psalm 92:15
1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

And more...

(1 John 1:5 might interest the O.P. since it equates darkness with evil.
@The Righterzpen )

You might read my post 357

 

[Tone]

Time is a linear concept that only goes in one direction. Because of entropy we can't "go backward" in time.

Yeah, we are all, currently, time traveling, in one direction--forward, but maybe it wasn't always so...or maybe it was, but the enemy saw a way that it can be manipulated to allow for backward timing and began pushing for its authorization/legalization,but was told "No"...and you know the rest. Or, maybe this was always a granted law, but it was the enemy who had issue with it for whatever reason...maybe having something to do with being in disharmony with the other "Pulsars", if you will...an unwillingness to cooperate within the range of frequencies, which may be the key to omnidirectional time navigation.

*The Time Wars and the Flickering...

**This may also explain the conflicting age readings in the scientific time scales..."geologic time scales"?

**Maybe when the earth is described as being "without form and void" (some describe it as chaos), it speaks about this time (these times) when the struggle over time itself was raging...in the dark.

 

[fhansen]

Except "darkness" does't mean "nothing". That Scriptures explain that to us. You are using your own thought as to what it means and not a Scriptural definition.

My understanding in the past was that the word could be used to mean"nothing". Might be wrong. But, in conjunction with other words and concepts used in Gen regarding the state of the earth at the beginning: "formless", "void", it all sounds very much like the viewpoint of someone, with the knowledge they had, trying to describe how God formed the world out of nothing.

God would not be God if He was not omnipotent. Of course He has power over evil. Evil is a separate reality of its own. Scripture tells us that. Evil is not simply the "absence of good". Evil is a reality that exists in this world. And because it is a reality that exited before there was any created entity that had consciousness. Evil's influence is upon the will of the creature, not the other way around.

I just don't think you can have it both ways. How does evil exist outside of a created entity? What would its nature be and where would it originate from other than God anyway in that case?

I am not looking at my own "speculations" as superior. I am taking other passages in the Bible to determine what this passage means. That is "interpreting Scripture with Scripture". This is what we are told by God to do.

Yes, Scripture can interpret Scripture, precept building upon precept, but not every attempt is necessarily proper. For example, to extrapolate from 2 Pet 3:8 ("a day is as a thousand years"), that Gen 1 is telling us that the world is 6-10,000 years old (rather than 2 Pet 3:8 meaning to make the general statement that God exists outside of time) is simply poor hermeneutics.

 

[Tone]

Yes, Scripture can interpret Scripture, precept building upon precept, but not every attempt is necessarily proper. For example, to extrapolate from 2 Pet 3:8 ("a day is as a thousand years"), that Gen 1 is telling us that the world is 6-10,000 years old (rather than 2 Pet 3:8 meaning to make the general statement that God exists outside of time) is simply poor hermeneutics.

When we engage with Scripture, we certainly are time-traveling...in a sense.I heard the other day that the book of Revelation is like a 3D hologram image.

*Correction...maybe 4D...as it works in conjunction with our minds.

**The Bible as a time travel "machine"...

 

[fhansen]

When we engage with Scripture, we certainly are time-traveling...in a sense.I heard the other day that the book of Revelation is like a 3D hologram image.

*Correction...maybe 4D...as it works in conjunction with our minds.

**The Bible as a time travel "machine"...

My mind is sort of uni-dimensional I think..Haven't got much past 1D with Rev so far LOL.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Yeah, we are all, currently, time traveling, in one direction--forward, but maybe it wasn't always so...or maybe it was, but the enemy saw a way that it can be manipulated to allow for backward timing and began pushing for its authorization/legalization,but was told "No"...and you know the rest. Or, maybe this was always a granted law, but it was the enemy who had issue with it for whatever reason...maybe having something to do with being in disharmony with the other "Pulsars", if you will...an unwillingness to cooperate within the range of frequencies, which may be the key to omnidirectional time navigation.

*The Time Wars and the Flickering...

**This may also explain the conflicting age readings in the scientific time scales..."geologic time scales"?

**Maybe when the earth is described as being "without form and void" (some describe it as chaos), it speaks about this time (these times) when the struggle over time itself was raging...in the dark.

Not sure why you think there was a struggle with time? Time in essence is set based (at least in part) on entropy. Things move from a state of order to a state of chaos and this is what causes "aging". For one to go backward in time would require reversing entropy of a whole scale in the entire universe. And the laws that set up the governance of the universe, just won't allow that to happen. God deliberately set it up that way. Time only goes forward.

As per discrepancies in "geologic time scale". I think the discrepancy is more in interpretation than it is "real". Carbon 14 dating requires carbon to be present in what's being tested to date it. And that only works for the time that life existed. Carbon 14 dating is only accurate up to about 10,000. years; which is interesting in that if you were to take the accounts of the patriarch's ages from Genesis and Luke to assess the age of earth, you get roughly 13000 years. It's not 6000 (the number Usher came up with) but we're also not talking billions of years either.

Hubble (the guy who "invented" the Hubble telescope) presented a theory that the universe was expanding and as that expansion accelerates, so does the decay factor. Which also fits in with the laws of thermodynamics. It's now believed that Hubble's theory is accurate. Well, reason would have it; that if the universe is bigger today than it was yesterday, then at some point in the past it was smaller. Now back up in time far enough, eventually you come to the point where the universe existed in a "singularity" just before it did not exist at all. Well that sounds an awful lot like Genesis now; doesn't it?

Now how long of a time span existed prior to "day one"? I suppose we could argue that too, yet why would an omnipotent Creator need ions of time either? If it's just as easily one way, it can just as easily be the other; so in that sense, the factor of how long has time been around, is a moot point.

 

[The Righterzpen]

My understanding in the past was that the word could be used to mean"nothing". Might be wrong. But, in conjunction with other words and concepts used in Gen regarding the state of the earth at the beginning: "formless", "void", it all sounds very much like the viewpoint of someone, with the knowledge they had, trying to describe how God formed the world out of nothing.

In the context of Genesis yes, the word "darkness" can not mean "nothing" because in order for it to mean "nothing"; would mean that it had to predate creation and we know that is not true.

The earth being "without form and void" still implies that something exists. It just exists in a state of chaos; which, fits the theory I've presented.

Now if you believe that "holy men of old wrote as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" as the Scriptures declare, this is not someone guessing out of ignorance what might have happened. The Holy Ghost was present; and thus the account is accurate because He saw it happen.

I just don't think you can have it both ways. How does evil exist outside of a created entity? What would its nature be and where would it originate from other than God anyway in that case?

You really don't understand this theory do you? The theory answers those questions.

Yes, Scripture can interpret Scripture, precept building upon precept, but not every attempt is necessarily proper. For example, to extrapolate from 2 Pet 3:8 ("a day is as a thousand years"), that Gen 1 is telling us that the world is 6-10,000 years old (rather than 2 Pet 3:8 meaning to make the general statement that God exists outside of time) is simply poor hermeneutics.

Yes, you need context. What is the context of 1000 years is as a day and a day as 1000 years? Once you figure out what that is about, than you can apply it appropriately.

Now both "light and darkness" in the context of Genesis and John is addressing "the beginning". Both passages state that. So yes, context is important.

 

[fhansen]

In the context of Genesis yes, the word "darkness" can not mean "nothing" because in order for it to mean "nothing"; would mean that it had to predate creation and we know that is not true.

I think nothing, besides God, would necessarily predate creation. I may not understand you on this.

You really don't understand this theory do you? The theory answers those questions.

Sorry, I can be a bit dull but evil as a necessary inevitable reaction to God's creative action just doesn't follow logically in my mind. Creation as potentially evil due to the fact that its necessarily inferior to God, with an inferiority that can express itself in evil moral choices if and when free will is given to that creation (in the form of men or angels) makes sense to me.

And still, what form would this evil take that you speak of? What would contain it-and/or control it, or spread it, etc? How does it exist or manifest itself? Is it contained in a mind? With God or satan we have goodness and evil personified.

 

[martymonster]

Yes

So, God wouldn't create evil (as he says) but he'll roast people for not believing in him?

 

[marineimaging]

Man is a sufficient sinner. He does not need a Satan to blame. But as to the origins of evil, I would ask why does that matter? To be intellectually saved? To help others avoid sin? To speak at a one on one level with God? I used to ask those kinds of questions until one day I realized that it was sufficient to read the word and follow the Lord to eternal salvation. It does not need to be difficult, but we make it so. Don't we.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I think nothing, besides God, would necessarily predate creation. I may not understand you on this.

I agree with you here; and so does the theory.

Sorry, I can be a bit dull but evil as a necessary inevitable reaction to God's creative action just doesn't follow logically in my mind. Creation as potentially evil due to the fact that its necessarily inferior to God, with an inferiority that can express itself in evil moral choices if and when free will is given to that creation (in the form of men or angels) makes sense to me.

What does not follow logically to you about evil being a reaction to God's creative action?

Creation is not "potentially evil" because God declared that it was "very good" upon the completion of creation (from a design standpoint). God obviously is still participating in the creative process by the fact that He still creates life as it "be fruitful and multiplies".

To say that God created something with a kernel of "evil" that makes it fall; would be to fault God with creating evil. God did not create evil; and I think you agree with that.

The manifestation of evil's existence in the creation is a result of choice of the creatures; but that choice is made because of evil's presence, not the creatures' will. The choice of the creatures did not create evil. Evil's influence caused their bad choices.

You follow me here?

And still, what form would this evil take that you speak of? What would contain it-and/or control it, or spread it, etc? How does it exist or manifest itself? Is it contained in a mind? With God or satan we have goodness and evil personified.

What form did evil take? Both Genesis and John calls it "darkness". I'm not sure if you are familiar with science's theory of "dark matter" or "anti matter" as being a counter to the presence of the material world; but as best as I can tell from Scripture, that's what I would "coin" evil as. "Darkness" is the presence of a malevolent chaos; is the best way I can describe what I think the Scripture tells us it is. I wouldn't even say it's "conscious" in the sense of it "making a choice".

Another possible explanation would be like Star Wars "dark side of the force". George Lucas never described "the force" as being God. He did not intend to make it a theological application. It was a concept he came up with as part of the story line of Star Wars and he did not want to get into theological arguments. The intent was entertainment, not to propagate the invention of a new religion.

The "force" in Star Wars has a "moral good" and a "moral evil"; of which, it is utilized by choice of the creatures. So as you explained your understanding of creatures bringing "the dark side" to bear in the Star Wars universe by choices they make. Yet even in Lucas's concept of "the force", it ranks under the concept of a Deity that has over all control of the universe. In that sense "the force" is no different than the laws of physics.

Granted Star Wars does contain a lot of ideas from eastern religion and does not present any concept of an afterlife connected to a Deity. Still "the force" is a lesser thing than God in the Star Wars universe and Lucas made it as such for not wanting to spark theological controversy with the movie. It's entertainment; which if one looks at it in that venue, it is pretty benign.

So there is an example in current pop culture that may help clarify what "darkness" is in Genesis.

What contains or controls the darkness? God does and He's capable of doing so because He's omnipotent. What "spreads" the darkness? I'm not sure anything spreads the "darkness"; but choices of creatures do spread the manifestation of evil in the real world.

For example, if someone intends to commit mass murder by gunning down a bunch of people in a shopping mall; yet gets killed in a car accident on their way to the potential crime scene; evil has been limited because God took them out of the picture. Evil is "contained"; yet that did not stop the influence of "darkness" in the individual who sought to commit the crime. Now God does this all the time. He intervenes to control sin. He assigns government to that task. (Of course corrupt governments commit sin themselves; but God's intent for human governments is to control sin.

So, does this concept make more sense to you now?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Man is a sufficient sinner. He does not need a Satan to blame. But as to the origins of evil, I would ask why does that matter? To be intellectually saved? To help others avoid sin? To speak at a one on one level with God? I used to ask those kinds of questions until one day I realized that it was sufficient to read the word and follow the Lord to eternal salvation. It does not need to be difficult, but we make it so. Don't we.

Why does the question of origin of evil matter to those who ask it? Probably because they seek a better understanding of God. God is not an entity that deals only with the emotions. We have an intellect because God is an intelligent entity and He created intelligent life.

Just because you don't feel the need to ask the question, does not justify you're criticizing those who do. If it doesn't interest you; move on to a different thread. It doesn't need to be difficult - does it?

 

[marineimaging]

Why does the question of origin of evil matter to those who ask it? Probably because they seek a better understanding of God. God is not an entity that deals only with the emotions. We have an intellect because God is an intelligent entity and He created intelligent life.

Just because you don't feel the need to ask the question, does not justify you're criticizing those who do. If it doesn't interest you; move on to a different thread. It doesn't need to be difficult - does it?

I don't see any criticism in my answer. Maybe you took it that way because you are accustomed to it in various forms. But my offering to the original posters question is just as valid and intellectually sound. The Bible isn't about evil. It is about the saving grace of God through His son, Jesus Christ. Evil exists as the outcome of disobedience to God in every case. Every case. Disobedience by Lucifer. Disobedience to His word. Disobedience to the 10 Commandments. You name it, evil is the disobedience of God.

 

[Zachm531]

Yes, you are correct. How this works out in "real time" is a mystery to us because choices we make are still independent of "programed response". You've still independently picked out what clothing you put on this morning, what college you attended, who you married, whether or not you went to the grocery store today etc.

God does interact in "real time" to accomplish His purposes and He can do that because He's omniscient. How He does it, we're probably never going to figure out.

The ability to have independent volition to make choices in this life is a different issue than the concept of "free will" as it applies to "choosing" God. Our will isn't "free" because it's encumbered by both our own sin as well as the fall. We are corruptible / corrupted creatures living in a corrupted universe.

So, in the realm of belief, we don't "believe" unless God enacts upon us first. Belief / faith requires a supernatural opening of the understanding, changing of the heart, changing of the will, which leads to repentance and believing and walking in faith, etc.

And who becomes believers was preordained before creation ever began. How God chose who would be redeemed - none of us got the foggiest clue. All we know is that was not determined by anything we did or did not do.

Isnt it just so cool how powerful our God is? Imagine speaking things into existence!

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

So, God wouldn't create evil (as he says) but he'll roast people for not believing in him?

People are thrown into Hell not because God wants to roast them. Going to hell was entirely the choice of the poor souls who chose to reject God. God loves you too much to force you to spend eternity with Him. Let me turn this question around. If God created evil, that would then mean that evil can be in the presence of God. So why then is hell necessary? Why is a savior necessary? Why wont God allow us to be with Him in heaven, sin and all? Considering you think He "created" it?

 

[martymonster]

People are thrown into Hell not because God wants to roast them. Going to hell was entirely the choice of the poor souls who chose to reject God. God loves you too much to force you to spend eternity with Him. Let me turn this question around. If God created evil, that would then mean that evil can be in the presence of God. So why then is hell necessary? Why is a savior necessary? Why wont God allow us to be with Him in heaven, sin and all? Considering you think He "created" it?

So, he wouldn’t create evil, but he’ll create a place where people suffer indefinitely? Sounds totally legit.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

So, he wouldn’t create evil, but he’ll create a place where people suffer indefinitely? Sounds totally legit.

You didn't answer my question. If God created evil, why is a savior necessary?

 

[martymonster]

You didn't answer my question. If God created evil, why is a savior necessary?

To save us from sin and death.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

To save us from sin and death.

Why? What death are we being saved from and why does sin matter?

 

[The Righterzpen]

I don't see any criticism in my answer. Maybe you took it that way because you are accustomed to it in various forms. But my offering to the original posters question is just as valid and intellectually sound. The Bible isn't about evil. It is about the saving grace of God through His son, Jesus Christ. Evil exists as the outcome of disobedience to God in every case. Every case. Disobedience by Lucifer. Disobedience to His word. Disobedience to the 10 Commandments. You name it, evil is the disobedience of God.

As to you not seeing criticism in your answer. And your offering statement being just as valid and intellectually sound? It would have been more honest to say "I don't know" then to criticize those asking the question.

But as to the origins of evil, I would ask why does that matter?

Why does it not matter?

I used to ask those kinds of questions until one day I realized that it was sufficient to read the word and follow the Lord to eternal salvation.

This is a response that's critical of the question; which by implication of your own statement, makes you seem in your own mind that you are more "righteous" for not asking it.

It does not need to be difficult, but we make it so. Don't we.

This statement is condescending to those who do ask the question.

So please explain to me how this is not criticism of raising the question? Just because you apparently found that you could not answer the question (you stated that you stopped asking it, not that you found an answer to it) does not suddenly make the question invalid.

I am the original poster of the thread.

The theory is an idea that struck me one night when I was contemplating the question after reading a whole slew of historical interpretations of it. This question has been kicking around theological circles for centuries. The very first dichotomy mentioned in Scripture has to do with the role of "darkness". It's an important concept.

Yes, the primary subject of the Bible is salvation; yet if you do not consider the role of evil in the equation, salvation becomes a nebulous concept. Why is one saved if evil doesn't really matter? Does that mean our sin doesn't really matter to God? One concept can not be divorced from the other without actually losing the importance of salvation. If one really has no idea why they're saved (or why salvation is needed); how does that impact their perception of Christ?

Now introduction of the question of evil's origins, invariably leads to questions about God's character and culpability in this; which in turn boils down to the question of God's trustworthiness. Being able to answer the question is a function of apologetics and does serve to dispel doubts people may have. Now you may argue that one should not doubt; yet doubt in and of itself is not sin. Questions are a natural outcome to the state of having intelligence. We are intelligent life because we were created by an intelligent God. So, why would questions like this not be important?

Evil is not "the outcome of disobedience to God in every case". We know this because "darkness" preexisted God's creation of any conscious entity. It's a common misconception that "evil" is a result of the poor choice of creatures; yet that definition does not explain why they came to make those poor choices to begin with? And that; sparks the question of the origin of evil.

Would you call that "Why? - to be intellectually saved?"

Again, our intelligence is part of the make up of our being. God did not tell us to leave our brains at the door. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Faith has a substance and an evidence; it is not a nebulous concept either. We are commanded to be prepared to give a reason for the hope that is within us. 1 Peter 3:15