Theory on the origin of evil

[The Righterzpen]

Origins of Evil Theory

I've often wondered about the origins of evil? Many church fathers and people in Christian circles believe that evil began with Satan. This may be true, depending on your definition of "Satan"; but if we look closely at the first few verses of Genesis, we'll see that this can not be. If we believe Satan is a fallen angel; (as much of church history has taught) than we know for a fact that evil did not begin with him, since it was present before angels were ever created. Darkness (destruction) was "upon the face of the deep" from the first time God had uttered "Let there be light."

The first words of Genesis start out with "In the beginning". This phrase is in "construct state" and has a "Beth" prefixed preposition to it. The construct state declares that the state of one noun is dependent upon the action of another. In this case the state of heaven and earth are dependent upon the action of God. (Yeah, I know that's an "uh duh" type of observation.)

Now as for the Beth prefixed preposition, it indicates the location or instrumentality of the action. So in other words, the action of what happened "in the beginning" began with God. (Yeah, I know; another "no brainer".) This is important to understand though, because what it is really saying is that all subsequent happenings (including the presence of evil) did not exist before the beginning!

In a prior study I did concerning what had occurred "in the beginning"; I'd stated that I didn't know where evil came from. (I'm still not sure I know?) In that study, it appeared to me that evil was already present from the point that God began the creation process. I'd thought that it may have even predated creation itself. From a little closer look at this word / phrase "in the beginning" though it seems that from the very commencement of any action of God - evil appeared.

Interesting - now why is that?

Here is another point where I'm not sure I have the answer to this question but I'm gonna give it a crack with a theory that's been kicking around in my head here. Now admittedly, this theory isn't "my theory" - no, it's actually part of physics. "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Now let's back up here from "the beginning" to before the beginning. Before any action of creating ever commenced; there eternally existed God. No action brought God into existence. He was just always ...there! So because there was no "action" that created God; there was no "reaction" to His existence. He as an entity is "something" and the opposite of "something" is "nothing". So, in eternity, besides God there was nothing and so any opposite of God that would have "existed" - did so in theory only.

Of course being omniscient; God knew this. He knew that as soon as He "did" something; there would be an equal and opposite reaction to what ever He did. (Note I'm not saying "equal an opposite reaction" to what God is!) He knew that what ever action He took; it would bring this theoretical opposite of Him into the created reality. (Because to every action is an equal and opposite reaction.) This is what I believe was the knowledge of good and evil that God possessed.

So, for as much as an oxymoron as this is going to sound like: this created a "dilemma" for God. He had to come up with a plan to adequately compensate for the opposite that would come as a result of His action. Now God being good, holy, righteous, just etc - the opposite of such would be evil, sin, wickedness, injustice etc.

So how could God overcome this "reaction"?

Well, since God is eternally existent; it would seem to me that His incorporating His own presence into His original action (i.e. being incarnated into His own creation, sending His Spirit etc.) does not create another "reaction" because God always existed.

So thus is the nuts and bolts of my "scientific" theory. (Admittedly, likely still needs some refining!) Evil was inherent in the act of creation itself because it was the opposite reaction to God's action.

Could God have created a world where there would be no reaction to His action?

I don't know; maybe on some other dimension or level He has? As for us though and what we understand of our physical universe; we could not exist without these contrasting duel addition to this though; this theory also lends explanation to why God could create something He knew was going to fall and still legitimately call it good. (Which the "good" in Hebrew really means "pleasant". I.E. God was happy with what He'd made. It "pleased" Him; which there is another whole dimension to that application - which maybe I'll tackle later.) Any how; ultimately God is not responsible for the fall; because He did not create evil, nor did He plant within man the seed that would lead to transgression. All that transpired was a byproduct of the act of creation itself.

The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

What of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil than? The tree was just the vehicle that clued man into what was already present in his world. It simply opened the door to the knowledge of both good and evil; but it didn't create either! Remember it's the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"; not the "tree of good and evil".

The tree was necessary for that knowledge though; and that knowledge was necessary in order for humanity to truly know God. You see, it was still possible for Adam and Eve to behave in ways that displeased God; they just had no knowledge of it because they had no commandments. The only instruction they'd specifically had from God was to take care of the garden and not to eat the fruit off this tree. (All of carbon based creation was commanded to be fruitful and multiply.) See "evil" had entered into the world even though sin had not, because sin is disobedience to God! So long as Adam and Eve didn't disobey; sin didn't enter, even though "evil" was still present.

Kinda weird huh

In regards to sin itself. Even if there was no tree; God would eventually given them a commandment that they wouldn't have kept. Think of all the trouble a person could get themselves into out of sheer ignorance. God is not simply going to sit back and ignore actions that offend Him. So, as long as they obeyed; the knowledge of any offense of action they may have done was hidden from them. As far as any offenses they'd committed against God? Up until the point they actually disobeyed; apparently they had done (or failed to do) something that warranted God to tell them to care for the garden. Once He had instructed them to do so; obviously they obeyed, so still sin hadn't entered.

The word "good" in Genesis:

OK, now that we know "good" in Genesis didn't mean "unable to be corrupted". What did it mean? "Now I didn't really plan on putting "this" "here" but it's a good place for it. I'll explain what the word "good" means in the Hebrew and how the applied to Genesis and even the current underpinnings of how this creation is constructed.

This word "good" basically means "pleasing"; although pleasing in a natural way, not so in the connotation of lust or perverse desire for something. It's the same word used to describe Abraham's wife Sarah; she was "beautiful" she was "pleasant (or pleasing) to look at". She appealed to other men as an object of physical beauty. This word, or derivatives there of; is used in description of attractive men too and even other living things; i.e. physical qualities that would make them attractive - like health, strength, vigor, vitality of complexion / hair etc.

We see this concept of "good / pleasing" being inherent in the biology of the physical world. Some researchers at one point did an international study to come up with a composite of what human beings considered to be physically attractive or desirable in other human beings. The point of the study was to see if there was an underlying consistency in who people would consider to be the opposite parent to their individual future offspring. Of course, on account of the nature of this study - it only included heterosexual individuals of a probable reproductive age.

The questions were posed with line drawings of human forms and the findings were interesting. The consensus was that people preferred a reproductive mate that was not too fat or too thin, who's body was symmetrically proportional and who's skin and hair had a healthy appearance. The next most important attribute for both genders was the appearance of the face and head. Was the face symmetrical and did the head appear to have the proper skull capacity to be associated with good intelligence. Another attribute that was some what of a surprise to the researchers, yet none the less important to both genders was the appearance of a person's hands. Hands were generally thought of in relation to a person's propensity to be industrious.

Contrary to what the western fashion industry portrays to us; men generally were not attracted to women who were too much taller than they, who's breasts were either too large or too small and who's hips appeared too narrow. Both these portions of anatomy were considered vital to reproductive capacity: a pelvis who's breadth was adequate to safely deliver a baby and breasts that would produce the appropriate amount of milk to feed the child. The "universal ratio" came out to be an hour glass figure where the waist was roughly 10 inches smaller than the bust and hips.

For women, proportion was also of notable interest. Women ranked higher in considering the size and shape of a man's head as intelligence was generally believed to be related to temperament. (An ill-tempered strong man doesn't make a good mate.) That ranked just as high for women as a man who's body appeared to be healthy and physically fit. The "ideal shape" for men was the diamond (or kite) shape; head, neck, shoulders being the top of the diamond and chest, abdomen, hips being the bottom. Interestingly enough, even in industrial societies the size and shape of man's pelvis were considered important too. Even though women in industrial societies couldn't identify why a man's ability to run well seemed important; they considered it to be an attractive attribute. In hunter gatherer type societies - obviously this was attributed to a man's ability to catch food.

Now as for the reproductive attractiveness of people who have less than perfect bodies; this is where personality became much more important. This was especially true of people born with handicapping genetic defects. Here is where perseverance and the development of a specific skill set became vital to these individuals' survival.

So as interesting as all this research was - what does it have to do with the word "good" in Genesis?

It goes to show us that what we find to be naturally "pleasing" or "attractive" is inherent in the make up of creation itself. Our inclinations and natural drives toward these things are there in us because they first existed in God. The good pleasure of God was made inherent in the world He created. (It's reflected in the reproductive process of every thing on this planet.) What is "good" gives us joy, just as the creation God had made gave Him pleasure. This goodness and joy we see extended even in areas of our lives that have nothing to do with our own sexuality. We find good pleasure in our children, our pets, our friends and family, our hobbies, the outdoors - what ever gives us pleasure.

Of course there is a "flip side" to this too. Our "good pleasure" can be corrupted into something perverse. This is where there is addiction to substances, sexual behavior, the pursuit of wealth or power and prestige.

None of these things (drugs, alcohol, sex, money, authority, respect) are evil in and of themselves; but the corrupted desire for them is. This corrupted desire is what makes evil apparent in this world. Born out of corrupted desires comes hatred, jealousy, malice, envy, strife, prejudice, greed etc. Their manifest deeds being: criminal violence, theft, lies, unjust treatment, inequality, immoral behavior etc. These culminate in death and destruction; the final say of it all being the wrath of God.

The knowledge of good and evil had a profound impact upon this universe!

 

[The Righterzpen]

(Actually Part I) - They are kinda posted "backwards".

Explanation of Creation / good and evil in this world

Genesis:

In His first task God set the format for the universe. He decided the structure of the matter the planets would be made up of and set the frame work of the "space" they would take up. (Sort of like formatting a hard drive for a computer - nothing is on the hard drive but the spaces are set up for what information will go where.)

We are discovering in science that all matter has a basic structure in which it's framed upon. In outer space there is "stuff" in the "space". We can't measure it, but it keeps the objects in the universe where they "are suppose to be". This is God's format. With in God's format came the basic elemental structures that would come to make up planets and suns. This could be the protons, neutrons and electrons that would eventually make up elements such as hydrogen, oxygen etc.

Before God put His creation in this "formatted spot", what was here was a perpetually destructive evil existence. The "personification" or the spirit of that evil is what the Scripture calls Satan. Where that evil came from is the basis of my theory. Is Satan a fallen angel? I know churches teach that and I've come to the conclusion that there is enough in Scripture to determine that. Now what Satan actually is as a "fallen angel"; I'm not sure I know.

We do know this. "Darkness" predated the material creation; and therefore the origin of evil can not be a fallen angel God had made; since nothing God would create was even in existence yet. Any ways; God was greater than that evil though, so He was able to put in that evil's existence a carbon based material creation that the perpetually destructive evil could not pollute. That is until Adam sinned.

In science fiction writing, we see the concept of "anti-matter". Whether or not there is an actual scientific theory behind it - I don't know. "Anti-matter" though is the perpetually destructive counter force to the matter of the material world.

In physics we have "the law of entropy" Entropy is things going from a state of order to a state of chaos. This decay is the work of this perpetually destructive evil existence that God superseded with His creative work. This evil got it's foot hold in God's creation when Adam transgressed. The destruction this evil brings upon the creation ultimately manifests as death.

In the Hebrew the words "heaven" and "earth" are definite articles. This means they are speaking of a certain heavens and a certain earth. Even though these words are not plural, we know God created more than one set of solar systems. The universe is filled with galaxies, composed of solar systems, which are composed of stars, planets, moons etc. The nature of the definitive article of the Hebrew here could be just referring to our planet and our solar system.

This universe that God created is immense! There is a reference in one of the epistles to "the worlds" (plural) God has created and the "world" (singular) He has redeemed. It is of my opinion that there is probability life on other planets. If the world God has redeemed is singular (meaning our world), reason would have it that what ever life may be elsewhere either is not prone to sin or does not hold the capacity to be redeemed.

We do know there are entities that God created that are aware of Him (angels, beasts) that are not created in His image, yet appear to have been affected by the fall. Apparently, the entire universe was affected by the fall, for it will all be destroyed and recreated an incorruptible universe. And the perpetually destructive evil existence (and its created spirit entity now fallen - Satan) that God put His creation into will be cast into the lake of fire.

The earth was without form and void. It existed as a desolate wasteland and was vacant. At this point what was here was basically the "skeleton" of the universe. The elements that would come to make up living structures didn't exist yet. This fact made the "big bang" impossible. There were no elements present to create life with.

And darkness was upon the face of the deep. This pervasive evil existence so permeated the "skeleton" of the universe that God had created that it tried to withhold the light of truth. This "light" was the fact that God was stronger than the evil. This evil was agitated and it continuously revolted against God's creative power. The "abyss" of what is mentioned here very well could be the "format" of what God would later designate as hell. The nature of the Hebrew word seems to imply hell.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. The Spirit of God was dispersed to this dead universe. The byproduct left by the entrance of the Spirit of God into this dead universe was water. Ironically, astronomy has witnessed where meteors and asteroids will impact upon dry planets and actually create lakes. It is believed that this is where planets get their water sources from. It's brought in the form of ice on meteors. This is also believed to be a factor in the flood of Noah. God's "opening up the fountains of the deep" is believed to have left this planet with much more water than it originally had.

Water is the first element in the creation of life. The presence of the Spirit of God profoundly shifted the balance of power in the creation. God "imposed" upon this evil existence His will; not only to create a framework for a universe, but to put life in that universe. Life being the total antithesis to this evil existence. It gives some context to the understanding of why evil is always in revolt. It by nature is destructive because that's all it's capable of doing. The manifestation of it's destruction in this fallen world is sin. Sin is so pervasive because the existence this universe was created into, is by nature perpetually destructive. In the end, God will cut off and punish that destructive evil. It will never again haunt His creation. Amen!

John

The first chapter of John gives us a little more information about what was "here"- "in the beginning". From looking at this account, I can understand where the Jehovah's Witnesses went wrong. They assumed that the first word "God" mentioned in verse one is "God" when in fact it isn't. It's "god". Their second assumption is "the word was a god" is somewhat along the lines of what it actually says in that second verse of John. The problem is that the word wasn't "a god" - the Word was "the God".

(Vs 1) "At the fixed point of where all commenced, continuously existed the Word; and the Word continuously existed superseding god. (the Word superseded the perpetually destructive evil existence that God had created His universe into.)

(Vs 2) And the Word continuously existed as the God. And the (plural masculine) they continuously existed when the fixed point commenced superseding god.

(Vs 3) The whole of the world (created universe) came through the channel of Him (the Word) and apart from Him not a single of any created thing which existed at it's height as a universe, did so without Him.

(Vs 4) At the fixed point (commencement of creation) by Him continuously existed life and that life continuously exists as the manifest luminescence of men. (The goodness of God shown forth in humans created in His image, even in the presence of their fallen state.)

(Vs 5) And that luminescence (the source of life) appears now in this shadow (of darkness) and this shadow (of darkness) seeks not to snatch it up now.

So as we see, God was able to create this world because He superceded the god (evil) that was already here. He could overtake the dominion of evil because He is eternally existent where as evil is not.

The "fixed point" of the commencement of creation; or "the beginning" as it's stated; is probably the point in which evil made it's-self manifest in God's "formatted space". God's solution in dealing with this evil was to create. Creation and life is the total antithesis to death and destruction. Evil certainly existed before the creation was influenced and impacted by it. God's response to this perpetual death and destruction was to create life that would ultimately be eternal. God could have "destroyed" this destruction, but that would just perpetuate the presence of that destruction. He had to overcome it and that's why He created.

Now enters the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God has a creation untainted by this evil. This evil that He has to overcome; for if He does not "deal" with it - it will potentially haunt anything He creates. So hence evil has a venue into His created world through this tree. In this venue is access to those who are the highest of His order of creation; those created in His own image.

Just as God has a will to pick and choose what course of action He'd like to take; He has granted this to His creatures. Note though that it's just not humans who have an independent will, the whole of the animal kingdom does also. Animals have differing degrees of "cognitive functioning" to be able to make choice independent of the actions of other individual animals (or humans) and also independent of the "action of instinct". (Good example is animals (wild and domesticated) that travel hundreds or thousands of miles to find their way "back home" - back to their human or animal families. That type of behavior goes contrary to "common sense instinct".)

So here we have a creation that has a will to carry out the good pleasure / nature of God and their maintaining of this "free will", all hinges upon the decisions made by one man named Adam. When Adam ate this fruit, not only did he open Pandora's box; so to speak in regards to evil it's-self. He "let it in" upon the whole of the rest of creation too. Not only did Adam enslave his own will to the power of this perpetually destructive evil existence; he impacted the wills of the entire animal kingdom. Animals can go contrary to the rightful desires of God, they just can't be held accountable to "sin" in the same sense humans are because the destruction brought upon them was not due to their own choice, since they are not created in God's image.

Jesus

So the creation, by nature of it's non-eternal existence is corruptible. Because it had a beginning; it was corruptible upon it's inception and would continue to be corruptible regardless of how long it took Adam to transgress. If there was no venue of transgression, there would be no hope of living in an eternity that eventually eliminates the possibility of being corrupted. Thus the need for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Without the tree there's no redemption!

So, in enters Jesus; the God-man existing as both eternal and created in one individual. An integral part of the experience of humans as created beings is/are our physical existence. We are not just a body and we are not just a soul; we are both a body and soul together. The soul that makes us alive is that spirit essence that's created in the image of God. Every living thing has a "soul" for without that essence of life - it would not be life.

Every living thing is not only distinctive in it's physical characteristics from other individuals; it's also distinctive in it's "soul" essence. This is why animals have different personalities and different temperaments. Plants too are "sensitive souls" to their environment. Equal factors of adequate soil, water and light are not the only elements that cause plants to thrive. They are also sensitive to sound and other factors. Plants like the company of other plants. Anyone who keeps house plants knows they can "get lonely" and do better in groups.

So, since we know the "soul / spirit / breath of life" comes from God. How does His presence in evil's domain ultimately overcome it? The presence of God's character is obvious in creation; life as opposed to death, love as opposed to hate, good as opposed to evil. Even so, that presence isn't strong enough to overcome the wiles of this destructive evil. It can't do so because of the mortal nature of the creatures' existence. As stated before, creation is corruptible.

God though, being eternally existent, can overcome anything that isn't. So the perfect way to deliver His created order from corruption is to become part of that created order. Jesus though was more than just a human body with an eternal soul. His human soul was very much in the same venue as the first Adam. This is what made Jesus "killable". Likewise though, his body was not just any old body; it was untainted by corruption. The divine (i.e. eternal) aspect of his person-hood maintained his separation from the corruption that befell the first Adam.

Here in lies one very distinct point in the difference between the nature of the Creator as opposed the nature of His creation. God is able to bear the knowledge of good and evil and not be corrupted by it because of all of what constitutes God. This includes the eternal nature of His being, His power, His knowledge, His ability to be everywhere, and the essence of love that composes Him. The components that make up this essence are comprised of justice, goodness, peace, patients, joy. This includes all and any aspect we can think of that's counter to evil. In this is the nature of God!

Evil

Last but not least comes the question of where did evil come from? We know it's not eternally existent. We know it didn't come from God or any of His creation. Ironically, we also know that God understood the potential for destruction that evil possessed before evil existed. That is part of the makeup of being omniscient. Of course the question has come to mind as to whether the thoughts of an all powerful Being could actually create something that wasn't already there. The mere knowledge of God as to the nature evil could and would take - would that in and of it's-self be enough to open the door to the invasion of evil into the realm of God's existence? Not a direction I'm particularly leaning toward. Yet, nor is it an answer I'm satisfied with. It sounds like something out of the world of science fiction though.

 

[GodsGrace101]

If you cut the above down to about two paragraphs, you might get an answer.

Here's mine and I didn't even read it:
We don't know why evil exists or where it came from.

Do you think it came from God?
(sorry can't read all of the above. I'm sure I've read it many times before).

 

[lambofgod43985889]

satan since the beginning was sin and sinner, that is the origin of evil in one line

 

[The Righterzpen]

If you cut the above down to about two paragraphs, you might get an answer.

Here's mine and I didn't even read it:
We don't know why evil exists or where it came from.

Do you think it came from God?
(sorry can't read all of the above. I'm sure I've read it many times before).

I guarantee - you have not read this before!

The basis of the theory is that evil is a byproduct of God's creative action.

"To every action is an equal and opposite reaction."

 

[GodsGrace101]

satan since the beginning was sin and sinner, that is the origin of evil in one line

I'm impressed.
You know the answer to evil....
Even big brains like Augustine and Anselm and Aquinas couldn't figure it out...but you have.

So WHO created satan?

 

[GodsGrace101]

I guarantee - you have not read this before!

The basis of the theory is that evil is a byproduct of God's creative action.

"To every action is an equal and opposite reaction."

I got that. It's not new.
It doesn't work because God created the laws.

If His creation causes the equal reaction of evil...then we can say God created evil.

What say you?

 

[Sanoy]

I take the tree of the knowledge of good and evil literally. It's the law, knowledge of right and wrong. And it is the law that gave life to sin. Romans 7:8 "For apart from the law, sin lies dead." So the breaking of one command, not to eat, led mankind into an expansive law of condemnation which mankind could not uphold.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I guarantee - you have not read this before!

The basis of the theory is that evil is a byproduct of God's creative action.

"To every action is an equal and opposite reaction."

BTW,,, some believe that evil is the absence of good.

Like dark is the absence of light.

What about that?
It seems to me that the above would negate a real evil, called satan. I believe satan is a real evil.

 

[lambofgod43985889]

I'm impressed.
You know the answer to evil....
Even big brains like Augustine and Anselm and Aquinas couldn't figure it out...but you have.

So WHO created satan?

god created satan without being guilty

 

[GodsGrace101]

god created satan without being guilty

At least you're honest.
So the bible lies when it says that God is all-good?
God IS LOVE. 1 John 4:8

So how does a loving God create evil?
What do you mean "without being guilty"?

 

[The Righterzpen]

I got that. It's not new.
It doesn't work because God created the laws.

If His creation causes the equal reaction of evil...then we can say God created evil.

What say you?

So where have you heard that before? I have never heard the laws of physics used to describe the origin of evil.

Assuming you believe God is an eternal entity; what was the knowledge of good and evil that God possessed?

 

[GodsGrace101]

I take the tree of the knowledge of good and evil literally. It's the law, knowledge of right and wrong. And it is the law that gave life to sin. Romans 7:8 "For apart from the law, sin lies dead." So the breaking of one command, not to eat, led mankind into an expansive law of condemnation which mankind could not uphold.

Even though sin lies dead...
it is still present.

You're theory doesn't work.
Something still had to create evil.

 

[topher694]

The origin of evil? My guess: Internet Forums.

 

[GodsGrace101]

So where have you heard that before? I have never heard the laws of physics used to describe the origin of evil.

Assuming you believe God is an eternal entity; what was the knowledge of good and evil that God possessed?

Since God created the laws of physics,,,which you've correctly stated...then if evil came about by these laws..God would have been the creator of evil.

Your theory fails in another way...
God CREATED PHYSICS...
thus He cannot be a part of those physics...He has to be outside of the laws, not be a part of them.

If you make a watch...you are not part of that watch.

God also made time. He is also not part of the time He made.

God is an eternal being...and I can't answer your question...

 

[lambofgod43985889]

At least you're honest.
So the bible lies when it says that God is all-good?
God IS LOVE. 1 John 4:8

So how does a loving God create evil?
What do you mean "without being guilty"?

without being guilty is easy, god created satan and satan turns bad since he was created, it's a matter of time the rebellion in heaven, etc

 

[GodsGrace101]

without being guilty is easy, god created satan and satan turns bad since he was created, it's a matter of time the rebellion in heaven, etc

But how could satan turn bad if evil didn't exist?
For satan to turn BAD,,,evil has to be an option.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Since God created the laws of physics,,,which you've correctly stated...then if evil came about by these laws..God would have been the creator of evil.

Your theory fails in another way...
God CREATED PHYSICS...
thus He cannot be a part of those physics...He has to be outside of the laws, not be a part of them.

If you make a watch...you are not part of that watch.

God also made time. He is also not part of the time He made.

God is an eternal being...and I can't answer your question...

Yet do you acknowledge that the knowledge of good and evil had to exist prior to creation.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yet do you acknowledge that the knowledge of good and evil had to exist prior to creation.

You mean prior to the creation of man? genesis 1?
Sure. Evil had to exist already...the tree was the tree of the Knowledge of Good and EVIL.

The problem is where did this evil originate?
This is always an interesting topic with varied beliefs.
I follow it with interest, but it's always the same ideas.
We don't know how evil got here or why it got here.

 

[trophy33]

The origin of evil is in imperfection of any creature.

Only God is perfect and what is born of Him, having the same nature as He has.

On the other hand, what is created out of nothing, contains evil, because its not God (i.e. fully perfect). Its only a created thing, separated from the nature of God, therefore it contains source for evil/mistakes/sins/wrong desires etc.