Theory on the origin of evil

[Tone]

Now why was He not omniscient in the flesh. That had to do with being an appropriate sacrifice and not having an "advantage" over Adam in the nature of His humanity.

You follow me on this one?

"6. Emotions: Emotional state at a particular point of time also affects communication. If the receiver feels that communicator is angry he interprets that the information being sent is very bad. While he takes it differently if the communicator is happy and jovial (in that case the message is interpreted to be good and interesting)."
Communication Barriers - Reasons for Communication Breakdown


The above is number six of the eight communication barriers. I think there were multiple barriers in the case of the enemy, but I would imagine that this one was/is the most significant. Tying in to what you were saying, even Messiah faced doubt, because He did not have full knowledge of the Father's ways, in a sense. This unknowingness may be the crack that provides the foothold.

 

[Tone]

So, as you say, it is a reaction to an action. But, I don't believe that it can climb (because of the "foothold" analogy) while we are full of light (channeling), it waits until we lie dormant, and then it attempts its ascent...if it makes headway,we succumb to unchannel. Thus, little by little, it desires to have us...so we lie incommunicado in darkness. It reacts to our shine, because it is blind and doesn't even know we are there until we do shine. But, once we grow dim, it claws upwards. One thing, it may also do is send out noise to attempt to distract and confuse us, but we must pray...and abide constantly.

*And the most bizarre part about all of this is...when I say "it"...it may be US...

**At least, the part that is perishing...

***"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
Romans 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

****The Flickering...

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I read the information you posted about the question of evil and what people stated about it in the past.

Now the question of why God doesn't stop evil etc. is a different issue than where did evil come from.

We've established 7 truths so far:

There is only one God.
God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal and immortal.
God did not create evil.
Evil does not predate creation.

The Hebrew word "Darkness" implies a "thing" or "condition" that actively seeks to suppress light and truth. "Darkness" is not simply the absence of light.

Evil is not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal or immortal.

Truth, light and goodness come from God; so He directs their ultimate end.

A few problems with some of the following assumptions:

Evil and good are not equal in power. It's not a "yin / yang" situation. Good will ultimately overtake and conquer evil.

If God allows evil, He's either not omnipotent or all loving. God is not on a human timetable to deal with evil as humanity dictates. He allows evil to take its course for the point of His purposes. Ultimately God's purpose is to show forth His goodness and glory.

Since God allowed evil, He is not omniscient or omnipresent. God knew of and planned for evil's presence. Knowledge of something does not make an entity the creator of it. The fact that God conceived of and executed a plan to address the issue of evil, proves both His omniscience and omnipotence.



Just because God acted does not prove there was not an opposite reaction. I've yet to find a better explanation as to why evil came into existence.

I addressed all your questions in my post that you just referenced.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

No, it requires you to believe what he says, and an understanding of how he is working.

The you are saying that God isnt all good. This is a critical attribute that makes God "GOD". Therefore, your statement cannot be true. Read my post on #271

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

It's a weather phenomenon. Do you think weather is evil?

A hurricane would fall in the category of "natural evil". There is also deliberate evil, demonic evil, and systematic evil.

 

[martymonster]

The you are saying that God isnt all good. This is a critical attribute that makes God "GOD". Therefore, your statement cannot be true. Read my post on #271

I never said that God isn't all good.

 

[GodsGrace101]

God created everything and so everything in existence is good. Augustine actually put it this way, "The only possible source of evil, is good." What this means is that moral evil, aka "sin", is simply a detraction from or perversion of something already in existence, and this can only occur as an act of free will made by rational created beings. Evil is not generally done for the sheer sake of evil, but instead is committed in the pursuit of something good, or perceived to be good at the time. So we're driven by three main desires, the desire for self-glory (pride), desire for pleasure (various lusts of the flesh), and the desire for wealth, possessions. These are more or less outlined in 1 John 2:16. And all of these "disordered desires" as they've been called, usually under the rubric of "concupiscence", often motivate people to harm others in one way or the other in their quest for fulfillment. Love is forfeited at the altar of selfish desire.

You're speaking only of evil as sin.
Evil is in everything and invades everything we see and do not see. The sin nature is in man and in nature. It is not just disordered desires or concupiscence (which is the same as the sin nature).

Re Augustine....I've yet to understand why the church admires him so much. As to the statement you quoted from him: At which point in his life did he say this? Are you aware that he changed his mind on evil at least two times that I know of...

 

[GodsGrace101]

It's a weather phenomenon. Do you think weather is evil?

Of course.
Evil is in EVERYTHING we see or do.
Please read Romans 8:19-22
What do you think it's speaking of?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Is a soul in Hell not still made in the image of God?

Hmmm. Interesting question.
Man is made in the image of God in the sense that some of man's attributes are the same as God's.
(even after the fall)
Man can love
Man can "create"
Man has a family
Man can socialize
Man has a moral conscience
etc.

Someone that is in hell walked toward satan all their life and did not seek God. So, it seems to me that their SPIRIT, which is the connection we have with God, was not in tune with God's spirit. The most important aspect of that person was NOT in the image of God.

I've never really though of this.
What say you?

 

[GodsGrace101]

In logical form:
1. Some suffering is brought on directly by our own free choice. The choice to abuse my body can result in sickness.


2. Some suffering is brought on indirectly by free choice. The choice to be lazy can result in poverty.


3. Some physical evil to others can result from our free choice, as in the case of spouse or child abuse.


4. Others suffer indirectly because of our free choice. Alcoholism can lead to poverty of one’s children.


5. Some physical evil may be a necessary byproduct of a good process. Rain, hot air, and cool air are all necessary for food and life, but a byproduct of these forces is a tornado.


6. Some physical evil may be a necessary condition for attaining a greater moral good. God uses pain to get our attention. Many have come to God through suffering.


7. Some physical suffering may be a necessary condition of a greater moral good. Just as diamonds are formed under pressure, even so is character.


8. Some physical evil is a necessary concomitant of a morally good physical world. For instance, it is good to have water to swim and boat in, but a necessary concomitant is that we can also drown in it. It is good to have sex for procreation and enjoyment, even though it makes rape possible. It is good to have food to eat, but this also makes dying of food poisoning possible.

At this point you could ask, "Why then is a physical world is necessary? Why did not God make spirits, who could not hurt their bodies or die?" The answer is: God did; they are called angels. The problem is that, while no angel can die of food poisoning, neither can they enjoy a prime rib. While no angel has ever drowned, neither has any angel ever gone for a swim or went water skiing. No angel has ever been raped, but neither has any angel ever enjoyed sex or the blessing of having children ( Matt. 22:30 ).

In this kind of physical world, we simply must take the concomitant evil along with the good. Eventually, of course, Christian theists believe God will redeem us from all physical evil too, giving us immortal and incorruptible bodies. But if we had those before we were morally ready for them, we would not have made the necessary moral progress toward being suited to them.

Great post.
I copied it to save.
Of course, I agree with all of the above.
Anything good can also bring to evil.
Even love has evil built into it.
As to number 5: Even nature has evil invading it.

 

[-Sasha-]

Of course.
Evil is in EVERYTHING we see or do.
Please read Romans 8:19-22
What do you think it's speaking of?

Is it evil only because people can die, or homes can be destroyed? Or is all weather evil? Sun with a light breeze? Clouds to shade you from the heat of midday? Rain which helps the plants to grow? A light snow which blankets the earth in sparkling white? A magnificent sunrise which colors the heavens in beautiful hues? Do you not only think of some sorts of weather as being evil, yet others as gifts from God, depending on if it harms people or our things? When the skies became dark and the earth quaked at the death of Christ on the cross, was that weather evil, or was it empathetic with the sufferings of Him who made all things?

What then if people could not suffer bodily harm but were entirely incorruptible, would the hurricane still be evil? Is it not only seen as evil because of our mortality? If we could stand unharmed in the midst of a hurricane and watch the waters swirl and roll around us for a time, until they fell back to their places in the sea, would we think it evil?

The verses from Romans, I read as thus: man was given dominion over the plants and animals - the creatures - and since man has willingly corrupted himself, those things which are mans subjects have been unwillingly made subject to the corruption which we took upon ourselves. They suffer because we suffer. Animals die and suffer pains, not because they have done evil or sinned against God, but because man (their temporal master) has done so, and as the master suffers for his willing transgression, so too do his subjects suffer for it. However, these verses in Romans also say "until now", meaning until Christ restored our hope. That is, the creatures which before groaned in subjection to man's corruption, now are subject to a man who fervently hopes for restoration...and not only that man will be restored, but that the creatures subject to him will be also.

 

[fhansen]

God did not create evil, yet evil exists and evil by definition is not "good".

God, alone creates something out of nothing; everything in existence comes from Him. And yet God did not create evil. The classic explanation is that evil doesn't actually exist as a separate reality of its own, rather it "depends" on good because its always a lessening of good in some way. As darkness is only the absence of light, evil is in some manner the absence of good.

So do you believe Satan was "in pursuit of something good" when he transgressed? Do you believe that Satan having the knowledge that he had; perceived his transgression as "good"?

Of course, in his pride Satan wanted to be God, definitely a good in itself, even if the desire is out of order.

1 John 2:16 describes that of this world (lust of the eye, lust of the flesh and pride of life; yet those are not the only desires present and in operation in this world.

They sum it up pretty well actually.

Desire in and of itself is not sin. Alignment of those desires to God's will is what is required. Jesus desired that the cup pass from Him. It did not though and He still did the Father's will.

Of course not all desires are wrong; they come from God, in fact. Wrong desires are called "inordinate desire", generally to take a good desire and twist or pervert it. Jesus naturally had conflicting desires, as we all do at times. His human flesh resisted the evil of pain, but in the Spirit He overcame it as He also desired the same as the Father for us. There's nothing wrong in any of that.

Anyway, as an example of wrong desires, pride is the twisting of a God-given good: healthy self-love. When self-love becomes twisted into a desire to over-value oneself, to see oneself as better than everyone else, to overrate ones worth, then the desire is inordinate, out of sync with the truth, i.e., evil. This can and does manifest itself daily in small and huge ways in our world and in ourselves. It's sort of the granddaddy of all sin because the self-importance or self-righteousness it offers allows us to justify more wrong behavior, any behavior imaginable, really. And that's the point. Humans must, as a rule, feel right about the evil they do in the moment they do it at least. ISIS had to feel they had the right-that they were doing God's will, in fact, when committing the heinous acts they did. There's a rush of power that goes with that sense of righteousness, but power in itself is not bad when used justly. A glutton abuses the right and good natural appetite for food. A rapist desires pleasure and/or power as well. An adulterer also desires pleasure and affirmation. A drug addict desires pleasure, relief from the pains of life or self-hatred. A miser or hoarder desires security and the status (pride again) that comes with wealth and possessions. The problem is that these desires cause harm to neighbor. Sin always opposes love in some manner.

 

[fhansen]

You're speaking only of evil as sin.
Evil is in everything and invades everything we see and do not see. The sin nature is in man and in nature. It is not just disordered desires or concupiscence (which is the same as the sin nature).

Re Augustine....I've yet to understand why the church admires him so much. As to the statement you quoted from him: At which point in his life did he say this? Are you aware that he changed his mind on evil at least two times that I know of...

Regardless of Augustine' struggle with the source of the "mystery of lawlessness" as its put, which He finally resolved only by his conversion to the One who conquers it, the quote I gave serves as a sound basis in any case, in light of the explanation in my last post #332. As far as the source of evil, the ugliest and most destructive source lies in the human heart, in the selfishness and self-righteousness that originates in pride which opposes and exalts itself above God by its nature. And sin can be defined as opposition to God's will.

And yes, concupiscence is sometimes called the "tinder for sin", not sin in itself. But we don't have a "sin nature", as if man became or gained something new at the Fall. The state referred to as "Original Sin", the state we inherit from Adam, is chiefly something man lost, it's spiritual separation from God, 'Apart from Whom we can do nothing', John 15:5, sometimes called the "death of the soul". When man is "free" from the constraints or control of God, he's absolutely lost, whether he senses it or not; by Adam's act of disobedience/rebellion, by attempting to gain full control, full autonomy, he can actually no longer control his natural desires and this will eventually manifest itself in very sinful behavior as he does what is "right in his own eyes". Man was made for intimate communion with God. Faith is the doorway back to that relationship, in response to grace, to God's calling.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I addressed all your questions in my post that you just referenced.

These are not questions; they are stated truths that we understand from studying the Scripture. If you do not agree with these stated truths; you do not understand the Scripture on this matter.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Hmmm. Interesting question.
Man is made in the image of God in the sense that some of man's attributes are the same as God's.
(even after the fall)
Man can love
Man can "create"
Man has a family
Man can socialize
Man has a moral conscience
etc.

Someone that is in hell walked toward satan all their life and did not seek God. So, it seems to me that their SPIRIT, which is the connection we have with God, was not in tune with God's spirit. The most important aspect of that person was NOT in the image of God.

I've never really though of this.
What say you?

No where in Scripture does it say that fallen humanity has ceased to be in God's image. The very fact that we are created in God's image is what makes us accountable in the first place. My dog can "sin" by disobeying the order that God set (I reign over him as one created in God's image and when he of his own will, knowing what I demand of him disobeys - that is "sin") yet my dog can not go to hell for his disobedience because he is not created in God's image.

The unregenerate are not mere beasts!

Scripture declares we are all dead in trespass and sin. There was a point in all of our lives when we "walked toward satan and did not seek God". So the "spirit not in tune with God" - what changes that? To be thus declared judicially speaking; as "no longer in the image of God" would be "double predestination" leaving that individual outside of any possibility of redemption. This would also limit human accountability before God as only applying to those who "are trying".

This is not justice.

 

[The Righterzpen]

God, alone creates something out of nothing; everything in existence comes from Him. And yet God did not create evil. The classic explanation is that evil doesn't actually exist as a separate reality of its own, rather it "depends" on good because its always a lessening of good in some way. As darkness is only the absence of light, evil is in some manner the absence of good.

Of course, in his pride Satan wanted to be God, definitely a good in itself, even if the desire is out of order.

They sum it up pretty well actually.

Of course not all desires are wrong; they come from God, in fact. Wrong desires are called "inordinate desire", generally to take a good desire and twist or pervert it. Jesus naturally had conflicting desires, as we all do at times. His human flesh resisted the evil of pain, but in the Spirit He overcame it as He also desired the same as the Father for us. There's nothing wrong in any of that.

Anyway, as an example of wrong desires, pride is the twisting of a God-given good: healthy self-love. When self-love becomes twisted into a desire to over-value oneself, to see oneself as better than everyone else, to overrate ones worth, then the desire is inordinate, out of sync with the truth, i.e., evil. This can and does manifest itself daily in small and huge ways in our world and in ourselves. It's sort of the granddaddy of all sin because the self-importance or self-righteousness it offers allows us to justify more wrong behavior, any behavior imaginable, really. And that's the point. Humans must, as a rule, feel right about the evil they do in the moment they do it at least. ISIS had to feel they had the right-that they were doing God's will, in fact, when committing the heinous acts they did. There's a rush of power that goes with that sense of righteousness, but power in itself is not bad when used justly. A glutton abuses the right and good natural appetite for food. A rapist desires pleasure and/or power as well. An adulterer also desires pleasure and affirmation. A drug addict desires pleasure, relief from the pains of life or self-hatred. A miser or hoarder desires security and the status (pride again) that comes with wealth and possessions. The problem is that these desires cause harm to neighbor. Sin always opposes love in some manner.

Have you read the OP and these statements in context of the entire conversation of this thread? You seem to be missing the points I was making in context of the conversations of the people I was corresponding with.

 

[Tone]

Of course, in his pride Satan wanted to be God, definitely a good in itself, even if the desire is out of order.

I think I get what you're saying, but by the time it got to pride,I believe,that he had already succumbed to The Flickering. I think it began with an eerie silence.

 

[fhansen]

The origin of evil is in imperfection of any creature.

Only God is perfect and what is born of Him, having the same nature as He has.

On the other hand, what is created out of nothing, contains evil, because its not God (i.e. fully perfect). Its only a created thing, separated from the nature of God, therefore it contains source for evil/mistakes/sins/wrong desires etc.

I tend to agree here. while everything God created is good, it's "evil" relatively speaking to Him due to the fact that He alone is perfect. And so the inherent inferiority that resides in creation can manifest itself in a rational created being with free will.

 

[Tone]

When self-love becomes twisted into a desire to over-value oneself, to see oneself as better than everyone else, to overrate ones worth, then the desire is inordinate, out of sync with the truth

It can also manifest in under-valuing oneself...I think the whole pride thing, is a fear based reaction to an even deeper undercurrent of feeling unworthy...which,yes,is the root, because what we are saying when we give into it is that His Work through us is not good and holy, but we attempt to disguise what we are saying by directing it to ourselves.

*This is the beginning of fragmentation.

 

[The Righterzpen]

That small nudge of unworthy feelings, after a while, became uncertain thought.

Doubt is not "unworthy feelings" though. Doubt is simply confusion over something.

In the New Testament, there are several accounts of Jesus interacting with gentiles. There are a few about Roman centurions and 2 accounts about a Greek woman who comes asking Jesus to heal her daughter. Jesus says the same thing in the Greek woman accounts. They may be two records of the same account, or individual records of different accounts. I'd have to look at it more closely.

In all those accounts though, it speaks of Jesus being "amazed" by their responses. These were gentiles, totally outside of the Hebrew covenant, who had not intention of becoming proselytes. Yet they displayed greater understanding than the Jews did and this "stumped" Jesus. I'm sure on some level He was saying: Ehhh..... wait a minute Father, how'd that happen?

The obvious answer to Jesus's confusion is God will have mercy on whom He'll have mercy and whom He wills (to be left to their own devices) becomes hardened.

Jesus didn't feel unworthy because He was caught off guard though. His response was - Well BOSS; guess YA got me there? Glory to YOU for YOUR ways are above our understanding.

So, is the origin of evil, communication breakdown?

No it's not because "darkness" existed before there was anything else created. (Either angels or carbon based life.) The only entity(s) of conscience that existed at the point the "formatting" for the universe was established; (which was the initial commencement of God's "creating") were the persons of the Trinity. And obviously we know there is no communication break down within the Godhead.

I also don't believe there was "communication breakdown" as it pertained to Satan. What he understood was clear to him and he chose to disobey anyways. This is what made his treason so diabolical and his fall so depraved totally.

In "TULIP" the "T" is "total depravity"; which means man can not please God because of Adam's disobedience. The fall was "total" and left humanity in a state of spiritual death. (I.E. "depraved") "Depraved" in this theological concept does not mean absolute moral bankruptcy.

That is not the same thing as being "depraved totally" though. Depraved totally is the inability to do any moral good. (That is absolutely moral bankruptcy.) That is the state of Satan. He is depraved totally.

"Total depravity" leaves the door open for God's action to awaken the sinner. This is the onset of salvation.

To be "depraved totally" though means to be unredeemable. Satan is unredeemable and so are fallen angels.

That's the difference!