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Theology and Falsifiability

zippy2006

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The difficulty in dealing with religious historical claims of religiously important events is that I basically have to take their word for it.

The same holds true for all historical claims. I don't see anything different in religious historical claims.

It is either true that Mohamed met the angel Gabriel in a cave and had the Koran dictated to him or it is false, but I am not sure how you determine which actually happened as an objective observer, and I don't believe it just because it says it happened in a scripture that some people deem true.

I think one sure way to evaluate such claims is on the fruits they bear, and on what proofs they provided to their first disciples. Supernatural claims are not accepted easily by any generation (John 20:24-25).

Because I don't think there is a single observation that would convince the believer they were in fact false.

If that were true then no one would apostatize. I left the faith at a young age when I was told that persons would go to Hell who, through no fault of their own, do not know about Jesus. An unjust God was a simple proof of falsity for me. Today many have left because of the clergy sexual abuse scandal--because those claiming to be commissioned by God have drastically failed in following God's commands.

The shakers as I have already brought up rather stubbornly decided to chastity themselves out of existence based upon their views of God and they simply couldn't be convinced otherwise.

And yet I'm sure that some Shakers left due to that requirement.

Perhaps I am being to harsh though. Something that most people would believe was a proper God could show up and say so to everyone. I don't happen to live in a world where God is pretty open about showing it's self in an obvious manner to everyone though so this idea is remarkably unhelpful and it doesn't yeild any claims that I can actually investigate. I have to wait around for Gods to show up given that idea.

I don't see why you can't investigate the historical details surrounding the life of Jesus. To me there is great credibility in the resurrection, as it is something that could not, or would not, have been feigned.

This isn't what religion claims happens though, we get "special revelations" to specific "special people", and the rest of us are left to grope around for the truth in the dark.

Those people are tasked with presenting us with some reason for believing their claims.

A claim that being religious in a specific way is psychologically healthy is a psychological claim, it can be somewhat easily evaluated given specific definitions of what is meant by "psychologically healthy".

The theological claim that the psychological health of the believer denotes the true nature of God isn't in evidence though.

All I was doing was noting psychological health as one aspect of Jesus' person. If a potential religious leader is psychologically unsound we have a reason to dismiss their claims.

The issue is that we aren't examining an objective "God" at all or even defining it in a way where we could evaluate it as a description of an objective thing. We are dealing with what convinces people of things like the idea of God, and what is aesthetically pleasing to them.

We are dealing with a cause according to its effects. There is no principled reason why those effects can either verify or dismiss the thesis of certain causes.

You yourself have presented a reason to disbelieve religious claims: the plurality of religions and contradicting claims. While I don't think that holds so much water, such a case can better be made against Christianity and the splintering that has occurred. For example, I think we would both agree that the likelihood of Christianity increases with the coherence of Christians. If there were 3 denominations rather than thousands it would lend Christianity credibility.

Reasoning is subjective without proper evidence. Please stick to it, the objective form of evangelism gets a little messy.

Improper evidence is itself a reason for unbelief, so reason still reigns.

Which sounds all well and good but you've just basically assumed Gods nature to deal with a claim about Gods nature.

Why should we believe God wishes humans to procreate just because it is a natural desire of humans?

Because, as I said, God gave humans their nature. If you don't want procreation you don't create humans as they are.
 
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Michael

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Because I don't think there is a single observation that would convince the believer they were in fact false.

I'm not sure I buy that claim either. I did give up my birth religion to become an atheist for about 9 years, and I still reject a number of points of Christian "dogma" even after embracing theism again. None of those choices and changes in my life over the years would be possible if what you said was true.
 
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variant

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The same holds true for all historical claims. I don't see anything different in religious historical claims.

So, I should be able to tell who talked to what angel back in the day?

I think one sure way to evaluate such claims is on the fruits they bear, and on what proofs they provided to their first disciples. Supernatural claims are not accepted easily by any generation (John 20:24-25).

I don't even have much access to the first people who claimed these things.

The things religions generally claim about God would be hard to demonstrate even if I had them right in front of me to speak with.

If that were true then no one would apostatize. I left the faith at a young age when I was told that persons would go to Hell who, through no fault of their own, do not know about Jesus. An unjust God was a simple proof of falsity for me. Today many have left because of the clergy sexual abuse scandal--because those claiming to be commissioned by God have drastically failed in following God's commands.

Right, but these things don't show any specific claim about God to be false or true, they show whether or not people are convinced without being able to know that.

And yet I'm sure that some Shakers left due to that requirement.

What does this tell us about the truth of the claim though?

I don't see why you can't investigate the historical details surrounding the life of Jesus. To me there is great credibility in the resurrection, as it is something that could not, or would not, have been feigned.

Then you have a limited imagination.
 
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variant

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Improper evidence is itself a reason for unbelief, so reason still reigns.

Presenting evidence is a form of reasoning.

Because, as I said, God gave humans their nature. If you don't want procreation you don't create humans as they are.

This flows directly from the assumptions you have about God that you wish to show true.

God exists
God created humans with a purpose
God created humans the way it wanted them
God wants there to be more humans

Ect ect

You just stack one claim on top of another with authority as your guide.
 
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zippy2006

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My goodness, zippy. I don't know how much clearer I can make it. I didn't just say "religions disagree." Anyone reading along can see that there was more to it than that, so why are you reducing it to that single observation? It's not just that religions disagree, often violently; it's that they all purport to draw on divine authority for their claims, but none of them are able to establish that they possess any such authority.

Let's try to clarify your argument. You give three points:

  1. Religions disagree
  2. All religions purport to draw on divine authority for the claims
  3. No religions are able to establish that they possess any such authority

Still we are left without any clear argument or conclusions that I can see. Is there supposed to exist some inferential relationship between the three propositions? The third propositions looks like a conclusion, but there are no premises or syllogisms leading up to it. This means that it is only an assertion.

What assertion are you countering specifically?

As just noted, proposition 3. Why should we take (3) to be true? So far I have not seen you give any arguments in your favor. As noted, the implicit reasoning seems to be, "Because Arch doesn't believe that any religion possesses such authority," or "Because all peoples or religions don't believe that any religion possesses such authority." Are either of these your answer as to why we should believe (3), or is there some other answer that you have in mind?

You're not going to answer it though, with your own view?

If you make a case for the rationality of astrology I will respond with my thoughts on the case you made.

As you can see, it's not merely that religions disagree, it's that they produce multitudes of supernatural claims that are asserted as incontrovertibly true (dogma); claims that are supported by invoking supernatural authorities that have not been established. In view of the abundance of such claims, what is needed is a way of determining which claims have merit, or which purported "revelations" genuinely emanate from the divine. Theology doesn't give us a way of doing this.

Okay good, we have a conclusion: theology provides no means of adjudication for competing religious claims.

I would say that there are at least three theological fields meant to provide adjudication: apologetics, fundamental/foundational theology, and natural theology. Besides these three, the Church makes heavy use of philosophy to address such problems. The common focus between all of these fields would be the use of natural reason (and natural premises) to determine truth rather than faith (and revealed premises).

As you have described him, the theologian works from the "revealed premises" (or dogmas) of his religion, and he evaluates claims in accordance with the traditions, scriptures, and councils of his religion, which together constitute "the authority" he appeals to in the belief that such authority is ultimately derived from the divine.

Arch, you have a heck of a time staying on topic, and as usual, you have strayed far from the OP. This is why I asked you multiple times what your comments have to do with the OP (and received no answer). The OP is concerned with rebutting the claim that theology is unfalsifiable and therefore illegitimate. It is not concerned with your argument about a plurality of religions, and never pretended to be. The reason the OP doesn't address your question is simply because the question is off-topic.

This outside criticism may even take the form of an alleged "revelation" that casts into doubt the authenticity of some (or all) of the Church's "revealed premises." Such a revelation is dismissed as illegitimate, heretical, or blasphemous on the basis of the divine authority ostensibly belonging to the Church.

Point to the place this has happened and I will believe you.

But as I, and others, have repeatedly pointed out, it's far from established that the Church possesses such authority.

If we look at the heart of theology (away from the fringe of apologetics etc. noted above) then the authority of the Church is a premise (but not an assumption). When we ask whether theology is falsifiable, presumably we are looking at the heart of theology in which case this premise is taken for granted, and the work of the theologian turns out to be Fcf if not always Fmse. This is the same procedure as the many other fields noted in the OP, e.g. historians taking textual criticism as a premise.
 
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zippy2006

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Aside from issues with how you have defined 'faith',...

...addressed in detail here...

I think it's worthwhile thinking about how you've defined 'science' in your OP and follow-up posts. According to you, theology is a science, but not one that adheres to modern scientific falsifiability. In what sense is it a 'science' then?

The link I gave in the OP gives a definition:

Catholic Encyclopedia said:
The words "science" and "Church" are here understood in the following sense: Science is not taken in the restricted meaning of natural sciences, but in the general one given to the word by Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas. Aristotle defines science as a sure and evident knowledge obtained from demonstrations. This is identical with St. Thomas's definition of science as the knowledge of things from their causes. In this sense science comprises the entire curriculum of university studies.
 
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zippy2006

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So, I should be able to tell who talked to what angel back in the day?

You said the difficulty with religious claims is having to take their word for it; I said that holds for all historical claims, not just religious ones. How your response relates to my statement is unclear.

I don't even have much access to the first people who claimed these things.

You have access to the effects, such as the religions, beliefs, historical details, etc.

The things religions generally claim about God would be hard to demonstrate even if I had them right in front of me to speak with.

What is an example of such a claim?

Right, but these things don't show any specific claim about God to be false or true,...

Sure they do. The first falsifies the specific claim that God is just; the second falsifies the claim that God's followers are given the power to follow God's laws.

What does this tell us about the truth of the claim though?

It tells us that some believed it to be false.

Then you have a limited imagination.

Or you have a poor understanding of human psychology.

Presenting evidence is a form of reasoning.

Of course. That doesn't undermine what I've said.

This flows directly from the assumptions you have about God that you wish to show true.

God exists
God created humans with a purpose
God created humans the way it wanted them
God wants there to be more humans

Ect ect

You just stack one claim on top of another with authority as your guide.

The Shakers hold to the first three premises as well, so your argument fails.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Let's try to clarify your argument. You give three points:

  1. Religions disagree
  2. All religions purport to draw on divine authority for the claims
  3. No religions are able to establish that they possess any such authority

Still we are left without any clear argument or conclusions that I can see. Is there supposed to exist some inferential relationship between the three propositions? The third propositions looks like a conclusion, but there are no premises or syllogisms leading up to it. This means that it is only an assertion.
It's an observation, zippy. We observe religions disagreeing with one another on various points of theology, sometimes violently, with each claiming to possess a unique divinely ordained authority that guarantees the truth of their doctrines. Based on what we have seen to date, however, none of them appear to genuinely possess any such authority.
As just noted, proposition 3. Why should we take (3) to be true? So far I have not seen you give any arguments in your favor.
That the religious have not satisfied their burden of proof would seem to count in favour of (3).
Okay good, we have a conclusion: theology provides no means of adjudication for competing religious claims.

I would say that there are at least three theological fields meant to provide adjudication: apologetics, fundamental/foundational theology, and natural theology.
Apologetics is employed in the defence of a particular theology — a defence against both atheism and other religious belief systems. The emphasis is on 'defence', rather than on critical examination. Consistent with this, apologists like William Lane Craig think that reason must always remain subservient to faith (1), meaning that philosophy and science can only ever be used in support of their theology, never to criticise it. For this reason, it's hard to view apologetics as a field capable of adjudication — it's not built for it.

Fundamental theology seems to be a branch of Catholic theology specifically. According to this definition on Catholic Culture (2), "its role is to set forth the rational foundations of the Catholic faith" — a task similar to Catholic apologetics. The alternative definition given is again defined in terms of Christianity. Considering its basis in Catholicism and its similarity to apologetics, it doesn't seem well-suited for adjudication either. Similarly, natural theology appears to be used mostly for apologetic purposes, having produced many of the most familiar arguments for God's existence.

These fields seem to be set up mainly to present a case or apologetic in favour of theism or some specific theology (Catholicism in this instance). That's not to say that they necessarily preclude critical examination, which is crucial for appropriate adjudication, but they are far less felicitous for it than philosophy would be. Building a defence case is not the task of the judge (consider Craig's distinction, following Luther, of the magisterial and ministerial uses of reason.)
Besides these three, the Church makes heavy use of philosophy to address such problems. The common focus between all of these fields would be the use of natural reason (and natural premises) to determine truth rather than faith (and revealed premises).
My impression is that the common focus would be to defend dogma using whatever resources are available, whether from philosophy or science, not to examine it critically with a view to improving it. After all, how do you improve upon something already considered perfect and incontrovertible, like the "Word of God"?
Arch, you have a heck of a time staying on topic, and as usual, you have strayed far from the OP. This is why I asked you multiple times what your comments have to do with the OP (and received no answer). The OP is concerned with rebutting the claim that theology is unfalsifiable and therefore illegitimate. It is not concerned with your argument about a plurality of religions, and never pretended to be. The reason the OP doesn't address your question is simply because the question is off-topic.
I'm happy to discontinue the conversation if you don't think it's relevant to the thread and would derail it. Recall that I was reluctant to post in the first place because I felt that this issue had already been raised in a multitude of other threads. What prompted my comment was your definition of faith, which conflates multiple senses of the word. I also wanted to address the potential conflation of 'systematic' with 'scientific' in your depiction of theology as a science, which it isn't. And to emphasise the enduring issue plaguing all religions that assert their authority on the basis of the supernatural.
Point to the place this has happened and I will believe you.
You doubt that, historically, the Church has accused people of heresy or dismissed certain alleged revelations as illegitimate?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I don't see why you can't investigate the historical details surrounding the life of Jesus. To me there is great credibility in the resurrection, as it is something that could not, or would not, have been feigned.
The historicity of Jesus can be accepted without assenting to the notion of resurrection. Similarly, one might accept the historicity of Joseph Smith without believing that he genuinely communicated with an angel called Moroni.
 
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AV1611VET

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The historicity of Jesus can be accepted without assenting to the notion of resurrection.
We call all those people "mission fields."
Archaeopteryx said:
Similarly, one might accept the historicity of Joseph Smith without believing that he genuinely communicated with an angel called Moroni.
We call some of those people "mission fields."
 
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variant

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You said the difficulty with religious claims is having to take their word for it; I said that holds for all historical claims, not just religious ones. How your response relates to my statement is unclear.

No the historical method is quite clear on how to evaluate claims, but it doesn't help us much with the most important claims like "did Mohamed meet the angel Gabriel who then inspired him to write the Koran?"

That is either true or false (which matters) but I can't really angle it from a usual history perspective.

You have access to the effects, such as the religions, beliefs, historical details, etc.

And how does this help me? Are you saying a religion can't be useful to society if it is based upon incorrect metaphysical claims?

What is an example of such a claim?

I gave you three in the next post.

Sure they do. The first falsifies the specific claim that God is just; the second falsifies the claim that God's followers are given the power to follow God's laws.

No, no they don't, we don't know whether or not God is just, nor do we know what Gods laws are.

It tells us that some believed it to be false.

Who cares?

The idea that some people believe or don't believe a claim doesn't demonstrate anything about the veracity of the claim.

That you can be convinced that a claim is untrue doesn't mean you did so because of some demonstration that it was untrue.

Beliefs are free to be based upon thin air.

Or you have a poor understanding of human psychology.

I don't see how that would follow.

Your claim rests on your ability to tell the truth of Gods nature from stuff that is made up, when your very argument requires that the majority of humanity can not.

The Shakers hold to the first three premises as well, so your argument fails.

Agreement between theology doesn't demonstrate truth. Disagreements in theology don't have ways of being resolved.

Belief in theology is based upon aesthetic considerations and desire.
 
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zippy2006

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It's an observation, zippy. We observe religions disagreeing with one another on various points of theology, sometimes violently, with each claiming to possess a unique divinely ordained authority that guarantees the truth of their doctrines. Based on what we have seen to date, however, none of them appear to genuinely possess any such authority.

"We," the 3%?

That the religious have not satisfied their burden of proof would seem to count in favour of (3).

But you keep missing my point. Again, what do we have in favor of this statement? That they have not convinced you personally? I say nonsense; they have satisfied their burden of proof! When you continually assert that they have not you are just begging the question. I, and billions of other people throughout the ages, assert contrary to you that they have satisfied their burden of proof.

Stop uncritically asserting that they have not satisfied the burden of proof. I don't agree. Continually asserting something that your interlocutor disagrees with is just begging the question.

Apologetics is employed in the defence of a particular theology — a defence against both atheism and other religious belief systems. The emphasis is on 'defence', rather than on critical examination. Consistent with this, apologists like William Lane Craig think that reason must always remain subservient to faith (1), meaning that philosophy and science can only ever be used in support of their theology, never to criticise it. For this reason, it's hard to view apologetics as a field capable of adjudication — it's not built for it.

As soon as someone claims that religious pluralism is insurmountable, apologists are tasked with disproving this thesis. Apologists defend the faith on the basis of natural reason (by demonstrating that supposed problems or contradictions do not exist).

Fundamental theology seems to be a branch of Catholic theology specifically. According to this definition on Catholic Culture (2), "its role is to set forth the rational foundations of the Catholic faith" — a task similar to Catholic apologetics. The alternative definition given is again defined in terms of Christianity. Considering its basis in Catholicism and its similarity to apologetics, it doesn't seem well-suited for adjudication either. Similarly, natural theology appears to be used mostly for apologetic purposes, having produced many of the most familiar arguments for God's existence.

You aren't giving any arguments, much less convincing arguments. For example, why would something not be well-suited to adjudication because it is Catholic? That is just you blatantly begging the question yet again.

Contrary to your earlier assertion, there are many specific disciplines directly concerned with adjudication of religious truth.

These fields seem to be set up mainly to present a case or apologetic in favour of theism or some specific theology (Catholicism in this instance). That's not to say that they necessarily preclude critical examination, which is crucial for appropriate adjudication, but they are far less felicitous for it than philosophy would be.

Why? 1) I noted that philosophy itself is a primary means of adjudication in Catholicism, and 2) the three disciplines I noted could be considered as parts of philosophy themselves.

Building a defence case is not the task of the judge (consider Craig's distinction, following Luther, of the magisterial and ministerial uses of reason.)

Apparently you think that a Catholic is less rational than an agnostic when it comes to adjudicating contentious arguments between religions. Why do you think that?

My impression is that the common focus would be to defend dogma using whatever resources are available, whether from philosophy or science, not to examine it critically with a view to improving it.

An argument is an argument, whether it is made by a Catholic or a Muslim. It is true or false regardless of who states it.

After all, how do you improve upon something already considered perfect and incontrovertible, like the "Word of God"?

If it is true, it doesn't require 'improving.'

I'm happy to discontinue the conversation if you don't think it's relevant to the thread and would derail it. Recall that I was reluctant to post in the first place because I felt that this issue had already been raised in a multitude of other threads.

It's up to you. I don't mind entertaining things that are off topic up to a point, but as I said, there is no use faulting my OP for not addressing new topics.

What prompted my comment was your definition of faith, which conflates multiple senses of the word.

It doesn't. I wrote a whole post on the matter which you ignored.

I also wanted to address the potential conflation of 'systematic' with 'scientific' in your depiction of theology as a science, which it isn't.

You did that half a dozen posts in. It had nothing to do with your entrance into the thread.

To review what we're talking about:

As you can see, it's not merely that religions disagree, it's that they produce multitudes of supernatural claims that are asserted as incontrovertibly true (dogma); claims that are supported by invoking supernatural authorities that have not been established. In view of the abundance of such claims, what is needed is a way of determining which claims have merit, or which purported "revelations" genuinely emanate from the divine. Theology doesn't give us a way of doing this.

Theology does give us a way of doing this in apologetics, foundational/fundamental theology, natural theology, and philosophy. Now your contention seems to be that these disciplines do their job poorly. I disagree, and we can have that argument, but regardless of the efficiency of such disciplines, their existence is undeniable. Theology does give us a way of adjudicating.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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"We," the 3%?
Does the fraction of believers or nonbelievers make any difference to whether the claims made by religion are justified?
But you keep missing my point. Again, what do we have in favor of this statement? That they have not convinced you personally? I say nonsense; they have satisfied their burden of proof! When you continually assert that they have not you are just begging the question. I, and billions of other people throughout the ages, assert contrary to you that they have satisfied their burden of proof.
That's fine. You can assert that and you do. But the question is whether that assertion is justified. Given the paucity of good reasons to accept theism generally, much less Catholicism specifically, I'd say that your assertion isn't warranted.
Stop uncritically asserting that they have not satisfied the burden of proof. I don't agree. Continually asserting something that your interlocutor disagrees with is just begging the question.
As opposed to simply asserting that they have satisfied their burden — even though, if that were true, it would mean that multiple incompatible beliefs were somehow all rendered "true", which doesn't make sense. You seem to forget that I'm an atheist, so I obviously don't think that the religious have satisfied their burden. When asked about it, all that's left is for me to explain why I'm not convinced by theism.
As soon as someone claims that religious pluralism is insurmountable, apologists are tasked with disproving this thesis. Apologists defend the faith on the basis of natural reason (by demonstrating that supposed problems or contradictions do not exist).
But with a view to defending dogma.
You aren't giving any arguments, much less convincing arguments. For example, why would something not be well-suited to adjudication because it is Catholic? That is just you blatantly begging the question yet again.
The task of Catholic apologetics is to build a strong defence of Catholic dogma; one that will assuage the doubts of the faithful and dispel the skepticism of nonbelievers. Given these motivations, apologetics is poorly suited to the task of adjudication, which requires a critical examination of dogma, including the dogmas of one's own church.
Why? 1) I noted that philosophy itself is a primary means of adjudication in Catholicism, and 2) the three disciplines I noted could be considered as parts of philosophy themselves.
You said that "the Church makes heavy use of philosophy." I didn't ignore that, but took it to mean that the Church uses whatever it can find in philosophy (or science) for the task of apologetics. That's why I said: My impression is that the common focus would be to defend dogma using whatever resources are available, whether from philosophy or science, not to examine it critically with a view to improving it. After all, how do you improve upon something already considered perfect and incontrovertible, like the "Word of God"?
Apparently you think that a Catholic is less rational than an agnostic when it comes to adjudicating contentious arguments between religions. Why do you think that?
We aren't talking about rationality per se, but the adjudication of incompatible religious claims. You've presented apologetics as an example of a field in which this takes place. But as I noted, apologetics isn't set up that way.
If it is true, it doesn't require 'improving.'
And if it's not? How would you find out except by critically examining it?
It's up to you. I don't mind entertaining things that are off topic up to a point, but as I said, there is no use faulting my OP for not addressing new topics.
I've been working on a post that is perhaps more directly relevant to the OP, which I'll hopefully get to posting soon.
Theology does give us a way of doing this in apologetics, foundational/fundamental theology, natural theology, and philosophy. Now your contention seems to be that these disciplines do their job poorly.
Nope, not philosophy. I think that of all those you've listed only philosophy has what is required to do the job. The others are apologetic in nature and thus oriented toward defending dogma rather than assessing it critically.
I disagree, and we can have that argument, but regardless of the efficiency of such disciplines, their existence is undeniable. Theology does give us a way of adjudicating.
Based on how you've described these disciplines, it would be more appropriate to say that it gives you a way of defending the faith with apologetics.
 
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zippy2006

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You seem to forget that I'm an atheist, so I obviously don't think that the religious have satisfied their burden.

Just because one is an atheist does not mean that must continually commit the fallacy of question-begging.

When asked about it, all that's left is for me to explain why I'm not convinced by theism.

Feel free to do that, or else to leave out the assertion, for the mere assertion is pointless in our conversation.

But with a view to defending dogma.

Sure. If I believe something to be divinely revealed, then I believe things which contradict that revelation to be false. That's good reasoning. Are you attempting to fault religious for this reasoning?

Based on how you've described these disciplines, it would be more appropriate to say that it gives you a way of defending the faith with apologetics.

I reorder this quote because it brings up an important point. You began this vein of the conversation by claiming that theology provides no means of adjudication for competing religious claims. I answered that it does.

...first, a brief interlude. We are speaking about Christian theology, but I am referring primarily to the Catholic Church. Therefore from now on instead of speaking about "theology" generally, I will just speak of the Church. This is significant because it makes sense to speak of the Church's use of philosophy, but not so much of theology's use; and because many Protestants would not see rational adjudication as possible...

...again, "I answered that it does." Yet the Church's adjudication will inevitably favor Christianity. That doesn't make it any less of an adjudication. One can adjudicate and defend the faith at the same time. Again, my primary point is that it is simply false to claim that the Church leaves us with nothing to say about contradicting religions or religious claims (although there is a very substantial amount of doctrine in which different religions hold in common).

The task of Catholic apologetics is to build a strong defence of Catholic dogma; one that will assuage the doubts of the faithful and dispel the skepticism of nonbelievers. Given these motivations, apologetics is poorly suited to the task of adjudication, which requires a critical examination of dogma, including the dogmas of one's own church.

Why is a critical examination of dogma inaccessible to the Catholic apologist?

To me this is like saying, "A philosopher who is an expert in epistemology is poorly suited to the task of general philosophical adjudication, which requires a critical examination of all fields of philosophy, including those of epistemology."

The Catholic apologist is intimately familiar with Catholic dogma, including the historical details, the motives for belief, the arguments that occurred, etc. This in itself should in no way impede his ability to adjudicate between various religious claims. Your claim is that he has a bias in favor of Catholicism which would color his judgment. But there are two possibilities: 1) Either he has an irrational bias which causes him to unfairly favor Catholicism, or 2) The reason he favors Catholicism is because he has impartially considered all of the various religious options and concluded that Catholicism is superior. Why think that (1) obtains rather than (2)?

Finally, even in the case that (1) obtains there is still a measure of adjudication. The apologist will still have to make arguments from natural reason in favor of his position, which will be tested by his opponents and those who are undecided. An argument is not made valid or invalid by the character of its proponent.

You said that "the Church makes heavy use of philosophy." I didn't ignore that, but took it to mean that the Church uses whatever it can find in philosophy (or science) for the task of apologetics. That's why I said: My impression is that the common focus would be to defend dogma using whatever resources are available, whether from philosophy or science, not to examine it critically with a view to improving it. After all, how do you improve upon something already considered perfect and incontrovertible, like the "Word of God"?

Philosophy is recommended regardless of use. For example, all priests are required to have at least the equivalent of a Bachelor's degree in philosophy. And the "philosophy" portion of my answer extends to philosophy of religion, religious studies, etc. So there exists comparative religious studies from Catholic perspectives that have nothing to do with the process of adjudication (or apologetics) directly, but do contribute to adjudication indirectly insofar as they furnish other scholars with information and comparative assessments of various religions.

We aren't talking about rationality per se, but the adjudication of incompatible religious claims. You've presented apologetics as an example of a field in which this takes place. But as I noted, apologetics isn't set up that way.

I think you generalize. Suppose a Muslim Imam converts to Catholicism. Suppose they are an expert in Islamic studies as well as Catholic studies. When this person engages in argument in favor of Catholicism over and against Islam--which they are no doubt capable of--I think an apt name for it would be apologetics. Yet it is not at all clear why their Catholicism should disqualify them from this kind of adjudication, nor is it clear why it would in any way diminish their efforts. In a way, an agnostic adjudicator is just someone who hasn't yet made up their mind about the two options, whereas a Catholic, or a Muslim, or a Hindu adjudicator has. I can see why an atheist would claim that the agnostic is less biased, for the atheist agrees with the agnostic. I can see why a Christian would claim that the Catholic is less biased, for the Christian agrees with the Catholic. But I see no reason why, absolutely, one is a better adjudicator than the other. Just because someone was convinced by the arguments they considered and converted to said religion does not mean they were incapable of examining the issue objectively.

And if it's not? How would you find out except by critically examining it?

I see no reason why they can't critically examine it.

I've been working on a post that is perhaps more directly relevant to the OP, which I'll hopefully get to posting soon.

Okay, great.

Nope, not philosophy. I think that of all those you've listed only philosophy has what is required to do the job. The others are apologetic in nature and thus oriented toward defending dogma rather than assessing it critically.

Then Catholic philosophers are the answer to your inquiry.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Just because one is an atheist does not mean that must continually commit the fallacy of question-begging.
How am I begging the question?
Feel free to do that, or else to leave out the assertion, for the mere assertion is pointless in our conversation.
I don't see how that's possible given the mere assertions of religion. I am only responding to those assertions by saying that I'm unconvinced and then explaining why.
Sure. If I believe something to be divinely revealed, then I believe things which contradict that revelation to be false. That's good reasoning. Are you attempting to fault religious for this reasoning?
On what basis are you claiming that something is divinely revealed?
I reorder this quote because it brings up an important point. You began this vein of the conversation by claiming that theology provides no means of adjudication for competing religious claims. I answered that it does.

...first, a brief interlude. We are speaking about Christian theology, but I am referring primarily to the Catholic Church. Therefore from now on instead of speaking about "theology" generally, I will just speak of the Church. This is significant because it makes sense to speak of the Church's use of philosophy, but not so much of theology's use; and because many Protestants would not see rational adjudication as possible...

...again, "I answered that it does." Yet the Church's adjudication will inevitably favor Christianity. That doesn't make it any less of an adjudication. One can adjudicate and defend the faith at the same time. Again, my primary point is that it is simply false to claim that the Church leaves us with nothing to say about contradicting religions or religious claims (although there is a very substantial amount of doctrine in which different religions hold in common).
I never claimed that the Church has nothing to say about contradicting religious claims. In the context of the issue I raised earlier, I pointed out that it does so with a view to defending its own dogmas.
Why is a critical examination of dogma inaccessible to the Catholic apologist?

To me this is like saying, "A philosopher who is an expert in epistemology is poorly suited to the task of general philosophical adjudication, which requires a critical examination of all fields of philosophy, including those of epistemology."
Apologetics isn't a subset of philosophy though. To claim that it is commits a category error. Apologetics may draw on philosophy, science, or history to present a case favouring a particular theology, but it is not philosophy, science, or history.
The Catholic apologist is intimately familiar with Catholic dogma, including the historical details, the motives for belief, the arguments that occurred, etc. This in itself should in no way impede his ability to adjudicate between various religious claims. Your claim is that he has a bias in favor of Catholicism which would color his judgment. But there are two possibilities: 1) Either he has an irrational bias which causes him to unfairly favor Catholicism, or 2) The reason he favors Catholicism is because he has impartially considered all of the various religious options and concluded that Catholicism is superior. Why think that (1) obtains rather than (2)?
Because of what apologetics is. It is a defence of dogma, not a critical examination of it. If you are engaged in apologetics, then your scrutiny is reserved only for the dogmas of other religions, not your own. As an apologist, you are partial.
I see no reason why they can't critically examine it.
Neither do I. But they'd have to cease doing apologetics to do that and subject the dogmas of their own religion to scrutiny.
 
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zippy2006

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How am I begging the question?

I don't see how that's possible given the mere assertions of religion. I am only responding to those assertions by saying that I'm unconvinced and then explaining why.

If your argument about the plurality of religions is supposed to support your assertion, then that's fine.

I never claimed that the Church has nothing to say about contradicting religious claims.

You said, "Theology doesn't give us a way of [determining which religious claims have merit]." Do you still hold to that?

Apologetics isn't a subset of philosophy though. To claim that it is commits a category error.

Why?

Apologetics is just natural reason working at the task of uncovering truth and defending against error. It is a philosophical discipline. It takes its orientation from divine truth, but its method and approach is solely within the realm of natural reason.

Because of what apologetics is. It is a defence of dogma, not a critical examination of it. If you are engaged in apologetics, then your scrutiny is reserved only for the dogmas of other religions, not your own. As an apologist, you are partial.

Apologists can and should critically examine dogma when necessary to the defense of the faith. There is nothing incompatible in this. And what do you make of the Muslim Imam who converted to Catholicism? When he engages in argument in favor of Catholicism is he doing apologetics or is he not? There is no reason to believe such an argument would not involve a critical examination of each religion's tenets.

But you may simply be focusing too much on apologetics. I named four disciplines, and the most uncontroversial of them was philosophy. Why would Catholic philosophers be barred from the act of adjudication?

Neither do I. But they'd have to cease doing apologetics to do that and subject the dogmas of their own religion to scrutiny.

Someone like the Muslim convert has examined the evidence with expertise and come to a conclusion. When he, with his expertise, marshals the evidence and arguments in favor of Catholicism by way of a critical examination of each religion's tenets, he is doing apologetics. I think that is obvious. But even if it isn't, he is still something like a Catholic philosopher of religion, performing that same function of adjudication.
 
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Loudmouth

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Apologetics is just natural reason working at the task of uncovering truth and defending against error.

Apologetics is the absence of reason as a defense for believing things that are in error.

Apologists can and should critically examine dogma when necessary to the defense of the faith.

Do you understand the contradiction in that sentence? You can't be critical of something while defending it. Those are opposite things.

Apologetics is only critical of those who don't accept their dogmas at face value.

And what do you make of the Muslim Imam who converted to Catholicism?

What do you think of thousands of examples of people starting as one religion and converting to an entirely different religion? I could probably find examples of people converting to Hinduism from Mormonism, Calvinism to Scientology, or a Moony who converted Buddhism. What's the point?

People can be convinced to believe in false things. That someone can be conned into believing something false does not stop it from being false. Even YOU believe that the majority of the human population has false religious beliefs, and yet they claim the same source of validity that you claim for your own beliefs.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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You said, "Theology doesn't give us a way of [determining which religious claims have merit]." Do you still hold to that?
Yes, for the reasons I've given above.
Why?

Apologetics is just natural reason working at the task of uncovering truth and defending against error.
I disagree. Apologetics is tasked with defending dogma, not with examining it as a means of detecting and remedying any errors that there might be within it. As I noted before, how could there even be any errors in something the apologist considers perfect and incontrovertible, like the "Word of God"? To concede that the foundational dogmas of the Church could even be improved or that they might be wrong entirely already moves one away from the task of apologetics and, as we have seen historically, opens one up to potential accusations of heresy.
It is a philosophical discipline. It takes its orientation from divine truth, but its method and approach is solely within the realm of natural reason.
You might recall that I started a thread on this topic a while ago. I still stand by my assertion in that thread that apologetics is not philosophy. As Bertrand Russell said of Aquinas in A History of Western Philosophy:
Bertrand Russell said:
There is little of the true philosophic spirit in Aquinas. He does not, like the Platonic Socrates, set out to follow wherever the argument may lead. He is not engaged in an inquiry, the result of which it is impossible to know in advance. Before he begins to philosophize, he already knows the truth; it is declared in the Catholic faith. If he can find apparently rational arguments for some parts of the faith, so much the better; if he cannot, he need only fall back on revelation. The finding of arguments for a conclusion given in advance is not philosophy, but special pleading.
Apologists can and should critically examine dogma when necessary to the defense of the faith.
I placed emphasis on the "when necessary to the defence of the faith" part because that is key — that's the goal. The apologist draws on philosophy, science, and history when useful to the defence of the faith; when he can use resources from those disciplines to make a case defending dogma. This is consistent with the ministerial exercise of reason I alluded to earlier.
And what do you make of the Muslim Imam who converted to Catholicism?
Or the Catholic who converted to Islam?
But you may simply be focusing too much on apologetics. I named four disciplines, and the most uncontroversial of them was philosophy. Why would Catholic philosophers be barred from the act of adjudication?
Are we talking here about Catholics doing philosophy, as in philosophers who also happen to be Catholic? So long as they are engaged in philosophy, not apologetics, I don't see why they would be barred?
Someone like the Muslim convert has examined the evidence with expertise and come to a conclusion. When he, with his expertise, marshals the evidence and arguments in favor of Catholicism by way of a critical examination of each religion's tenets, he is doing apologetics. I think that is obvious.
Is he engaged in a defence of the dogmas he has now committed himself to or is he subjecting them to scrutiny? It seems that you have a situation in which he has traded one set of dogmas for another, and so now he is defending the new while criticising the old. In other words, as an apologist, he is presenting a case favouring Catholicism, and in doing so he subjects his former faith to scrutiny in an attempt to render it dubious. This is part of his defence, and isn't at all unusual among apologists who want to convince others of the superiority of their religion. But again, the emphasis is on defence and evangelism, on building a case defending the dogmas of one's own church, not on criticising them.
 
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zippy2006

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Yes, for the reasons I've given above.

Okay, so we have two propositions:

  1. The Church has nothing to say about conflicting religious claims
  2. Theology doesn't give us a way of [determining which religious claims have merit].
You have denied the first and affirmed the second. This requires explanation. What can the Church have to say about conflicting religious claims if theology doesn't even give us a way of determining which religious claims have merit?

I disagree. Apologetics is tasked with defending dogma, not with examining it as a means of detecting and remedying any errors that there might be within it.

I would say that there is no contradiction between defending something and examining that same something. This is your primary error imo. People come to faith by examining the teachings of the Church, and they defend the faith based in part on that examination.

As I noted before, how could there even be any errors in something the apologist considers perfect and incontrovertible, like the "Word of God"? To concede that the foundational dogmas of the Church could even be improved or that they might be wrong entirely already moves one away from the task of apologetics and, as we have seen historically, opens one up to potential accusations of heresy.

Here is the reasoning you are working from:

  1. All adjudication requires admitting the possibility of error in the positions adjudicated
  2. Apologetics claims to be a legitimate form of adjudication
  3. Therefore apologetics requires admitting the possibility of error in the positions adjudicated
  4. But apologetics is a defense of the faith, and thus cannot admit the possibility of error in Christianity; the claim in (2) must be false

I reject (1) in part. Someone can admit for the sake of argument the possibility of error without ultimately abandoning that thing. Can you give more evidence for (1)? I think there is definitely something true behind it.

I placed emphasis on the "when necessary to the defence of the faith" part because that is key — that's the goal. The apologist draws on philosophy, science, and history when useful to the defence of the faith; when he can use resources from those disciplines to make a case defending dogma. This is consistent with the ministerial exercise of reason I alluded to earlier.

So then do you agree that apologists "can and should critically examine dogma"? I added that clause only to ensure that what was being done was in fact apologetics.

Or the Catholic who converted to Islam?

Either one can successfully adjudicate.

Are we talking here about Catholics doing philosophy, as in philosophers who also happen to be Catholic? So long as they are engaged in philosophy, not apologetics, I don't see why they would be barred?

Okay. Inevitably the Catholic philosopher is going to argue in favor of Catholicism in the adjudication. So then do you admit that the Church does give us a way of determining which religious claims have merit?

Is he engaged in a defence of the dogmas he has now committed himself to or is he subjecting them to scrutiny?

Why do you think they are mutually exclusive?

Suppose I hold to a dogma by faith. As Aquinas says, faith does not satisfy the inquiring mind, and it is normal for our natural powers of reason to probe and delve into the mystery to try to better understand it--indeed the mind will only be fully satisfied when it sees the truths of faith in heaven. So I examine that dogma by way of reason, and I also compare it to other dogmas to see how they fit together. Perhaps sometimes I even come to the preliminary conclusion that a dogma or a set of dogmas entails a contradiction, and yet in the end I hold that the certainty of faith is stronger than the particular rational conclusion of a contradiction. What is the difference between doing this and scrutinizing one's beliefs?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Okay, so we have two propositions:

  1. The Church has nothing to say about conflicting religious claims
  2. Theology doesn't give us a way of [determining which religious claims have merit].
You have denied the first and affirmed the second. This requires explanation. What can the Church have to say about conflicting religious claims if theology doesn't even give us a way of determining which religious claims have merit?
The Church can deny the authenticity of alleged revelations that conflict with Church dogma. This denial is based on the Church's authority, ostensibly derived from the divine.
I would say that there is no contradiction between defending something and examining that same something. This is your primary error imo. People come to faith by examining the teachings of the Church, and they defend the faith based in part on that examination.

Here is the reasoning you are working from:

  1. All adjudication requires admitting the possibility of error in the positions adjudicated
  2. Apologetics claims to be a legitimate form of adjudication
  3. Therefore apologetics requires admitting the possibility of error in the positions adjudicated
  4. But apologetics is a defense of the faith, and thus cannot admit the possibility of error in Christianity; the claim in (2) must be false

I reject (1) in part. Someone can admit for the sake of argument the possibility of error without ultimately abandoning that thing. Can you give more evidence for (1)? I think there is definitely something true behind it.
'Dogma' implies something asserted to be incontrovertibly true and beyond question. It's hard to engage in criticism without questioning. The apologist's task, in defending dogma and exercising faith, is not to question or doubt it, but to develop a fortified case that shields it from the questioning and doubt of others. Following Luther, Craig — who happens to be one of the most popular apologists around today — distinguishes between the magisterial and ministerial uses of reason, emphasising that apologetics is a ministerial exercise, in which "reason submits to and serves the gospel" (p. 47), instead of judging it on the basis of evidence — in other words, instead of adjudicating whether gospel claims are true. If one were to adjudicate the matter fairly, one would need to at least accept the possibility that such claims are false and that inquiry may reveal it to be so.
Okay. Inevitably the Catholic philosopher is going to argue in favor of Catholicism in the adjudication. So then do you admit that the Church does give us a way of determining which religious claims have merit?
Not the Church, no. The Church did not give us philosophy and cannot control what inquiries people undertake when they do philosophy. I was a Catholic when I first started philosophising. But even then I never thought of philosophy as something given to me by the Church as a means of adjudicating.
Why do you think they are mutually exclusive?

Suppose I hold to a dogma by faith. As Aquinas says, faith does not satisfy the inquiring mind, and it is normal for our natural powers of reason to probe and delve into the mystery to try to better understand it--indeed the mind will only be fully satisfied when it sees the truths of faith in heaven. So I examine that dogma by way of reason, and I also compare it to other dogmas to see how they fit together. Perhaps sometimes I even come to the preliminary conclusion that a dogma or a set of dogmas entails a contradiction, and yet in the end I hold that the certainty of faith is stronger than the particular rational conclusion of a contradiction. What is the difference between doing this and scrutinizing one's beliefs?
You are describing a different situation now because, presumably, there is room to doubt in the course of this reflection? You are allowing for the possibility that some crucial aspect of the theology either doesn't make sense or isn't true and therefore it needs to be revised or abandoned? To adjudicate fairly, it seems that you'd have to allow at least that much.
 
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