- Nov 9, 2013
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The difficulty in dealing with religious historical claims of religiously important events is that I basically have to take their word for it.
The same holds true for all historical claims. I don't see anything different in religious historical claims.
It is either true that Mohamed met the angel Gabriel in a cave and had the Koran dictated to him or it is false, but I am not sure how you determine which actually happened as an objective observer, and I don't believe it just because it says it happened in a scripture that some people deem true.
I think one sure way to evaluate such claims is on the fruits they bear, and on what proofs they provided to their first disciples. Supernatural claims are not accepted easily by any generation (John 20:24-25).
Because I don't think there is a single observation that would convince the believer they were in fact false.
If that were true then no one would apostatize. I left the faith at a young age when I was told that persons would go to Hell who, through no fault of their own, do not know about Jesus. An unjust God was a simple proof of falsity for me. Today many have left because of the clergy sexual abuse scandal--because those claiming to be commissioned by God have drastically failed in following God's commands.
The shakers as I have already brought up rather stubbornly decided to chastity themselves out of existence based upon their views of God and they simply couldn't be convinced otherwise.
And yet I'm sure that some Shakers left due to that requirement.
Perhaps I am being to harsh though. Something that most people would believe was a proper God could show up and say so to everyone. I don't happen to live in a world where God is pretty open about showing it's self in an obvious manner to everyone though so this idea is remarkably unhelpful and it doesn't yeild any claims that I can actually investigate. I have to wait around for Gods to show up given that idea.
I don't see why you can't investigate the historical details surrounding the life of Jesus. To me there is great credibility in the resurrection, as it is something that could not, or would not, have been feigned.
This isn't what religion claims happens though, we get "special revelations" to specific "special people", and the rest of us are left to grope around for the truth in the dark.
Those people are tasked with presenting us with some reason for believing their claims.
A claim that being religious in a specific way is psychologically healthy is a psychological claim, it can be somewhat easily evaluated given specific definitions of what is meant by "psychologically healthy".
The theological claim that the psychological health of the believer denotes the true nature of God isn't in evidence though.
All I was doing was noting psychological health as one aspect of Jesus' person. If a potential religious leader is psychologically unsound we have a reason to dismiss their claims.
The issue is that we aren't examining an objective "God" at all or even defining it in a way where we could evaluate it as a description of an objective thing. We are dealing with what convinces people of things like the idea of God, and what is aesthetically pleasing to them.
We are dealing with a cause according to its effects. There is no principled reason why those effects can either verify or dismiss the thesis of certain causes.
You yourself have presented a reason to disbelieve religious claims: the plurality of religions and contradicting claims. While I don't think that holds so much water, such a case can better be made against Christianity and the splintering that has occurred. For example, I think we would both agree that the likelihood of Christianity increases with the coherence of Christians. If there were 3 denominations rather than thousands it would lend Christianity credibility.
Reasoning is subjective without proper evidence. Please stick to it, the objective form of evangelism gets a little messy.
Improper evidence is itself a reason for unbelief, so reason still reigns.
Which sounds all well and good but you've just basically assumed Gods nature to deal with a claim about Gods nature.
Why should we believe God wishes humans to procreate just because it is a natural desire of humans?
Because, as I said, God gave humans their nature. If you don't want procreation you don't create humans as they are.
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