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Theological inconsistency

Reformationist

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Jeremiahdavid said:
I want to know why it is justice for God to send someone to hell when he at the moment when he created that soul, knew that he would have to make that soul suffer eternally.


No one goes to hell because they are created. Those who go to hell are condemned because of their volitional actions. You act as if someone shouldn't be punished for their actions just because God knew they would freely commit them prior to them actually doing so. Additionally, God reveals that one of the ways He reveals His love for His elect is in showing them the His wrath against the iniquity of man's sinfulness. We gain a greater knowledge of, and appreciation for, the love of our Savior because we can see that He is truly that, our Savior. He actually saves us from what we deserve due to our actions.

As to the nature of hell, I have not studied the issue enough to know if the Bible reveals whether it is eternal.

Yes, that is one of my issues.

God is the Creator. God is the Judge. All, excepting Jesus, have sinned before God and, in doing so, incurred His wrath. If you feel that the decision should not be made by the only righteous and just Being to ever exist, pray tell, who should decide? :scratch:

So God predestined our souls at the moment of their creation and thus is responcible for our actions and the evil of the world.

Are you asking me or telling me?

So God grants the lucky to eternity with him?

Well, I wouldn't say that "luck" had anything to do with it. God grants eternal life to those for whom Christ died. It was in accordance with His plan to be glorified in the dispensation of His grace toward a people whom He had set apart to the glory of His Son.

It is not cosmic treason to not accept Jesus.


I see no value in the pointless "yes it is, no it isn't" volley so I will merely encourage you to consider the work of the Lord and pray for understanding. Continue to ask questions but be open to the possibility that you could very well be wrong.

God bless
 
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Jeremiahdavid

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He Did, with a Wooden Cross and Three Nails.
Says who??? My dad's dad's dad's dad's dad's etc. etc. etc.? This is not a clear and loud message. At least not to me, or anyone else alive today.


And if you would demand more then that from God Almighty, or any God for that Matter, to say that when they sacrifice themslves so that you will have a chance to go to Heaven and be with then was NOT Enough,well send me a post card from Hell or where ever you feel the Rejects shoudl go, because No "God" or "Goddesss" would have you, or anyone that would demand as much.
All I want is a loud and clear message. God hasn't done that. How am I supposed to decide who's really God? I'm here and I'm ready to serve him. I'm ready to die for him but he is mute. ... I don't want to be denied Muslim heaven just because I got it wrong and God can't expect people to guess.

Believe what you Will, if Jesus comming Down and Giving you Chance for Salvation is the Act of an Evil God in your Mind, so be it.
It's incomplete not evil. You don't give someone a gift and never tell them about it. And you'll say, "but he did" and I'll say no, he left us with a million "gifts" and expected us to decypher which one was salvation and which one was just unity with other people.

and I tire of your slectived method of quoting me, in which you miss the entire points provided, and provied an even more confusing responce.
be specific.


No one goes to hell because they are created.
Yes I am aware of this.

Those who go to hell are condemned because of their volitional actions.
Which are sooooo great by comparison to God's punishment:)


You act as if someone shouldn't be punished for their actions just because God knew they would freely commit them prior to them actually doing so.
No, I believe God shouldn't have created them. You don't make something weak and punish it for its weakness and don't say we weren't weak because if eve ate from the tree than we were weak.


Additionally, God reveals that one of the ways He reveals His love for His elect is in showing them the His wrath against the iniquity of man's sinfulness.
So like when he killed the guy in the book of Acts? So he is teaching by killing? ....


I will finish this later. I have to go now.

We gain a greater knowledge of, and appreciation for, the love of our Savior because we can see that He is truly that, our Savior. He actually saves us from what we deserve due to our actions.


 
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MinDach

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I believe God shouldn't of created them

Then you or I would not be here on this forum writing all theses long words. God made us for his pleasure, we may not like it at times, but guess what, we don't live forever down here on earth either, that will all come to a end someday. I look forward to the new body, and new earth, new life. Thats what Christ gives us freely. He paid the cost.
 
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Reformationist

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Jeremiahdavid said:
Yes I am aware of this.

Oh good. :)

Which are sooooo great by comparison to God's punishment:)

The gravity of the crime is determined by the holiness of the Lawgiver, not whether you feel the punishment is fitting to the crime.

No, I believe God shouldn't of created them.

Man was created for the purposes of God, not the purposes of man. It is this very attitude of rebelliousness, i.e., arrogantly presuming to question the authority of your Creator to create as He will, that brought the Fall to pass. All you do is emphasize that Adam's representative role was a fitting appointment.

You don't make something weak and punish it for its weakness and don't say we weren't weak because if eve ate from the tree than we were weak.

Well, I don't know what you mean by "weak" but I do acknowledge that we love our sin and will often strive with all our might to indulge in it.

As for your claim, I didn't make anything so I cannot presume to tell the Creator what He can or cannot do with His creation. Either way, man was not created with a sinful proclivity so your assumptions about Eve's "weakness" are unfounded.


So like when he killed guy in the book of Acts? So he is teaching by killing?

Are you referring to Ananias? Or perhaps Herod? :scratch: ...


God bless
 
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Jeremiahdavid

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Then you or I would not be here on this forum writing all theses long words. God made us for his pleasure, we may not like it at times, but guess what, we don't live forever down here on earth either, that will all come to a end someday. I look forward to the new body, and new earth, new life. Thats what Christ gives us freely. He paid the cost.
If it was as simple as that I would be saved. If Jesus died for me, I accept but how can I know that he did with certainty. How can I choose God instead of Allah without that certainty?
 
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LilLamb219

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If Jesus died for me, I accept but how can I know that he did with certainty. How can I choose God instead of Allah without that certainty?

Continue to read through the Holy Bible. It is through God's Word that you will come to knowledge of the truth.
 
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Jim47

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LilLamb219 said:
Continue to read through the Holy Bible. It is through God's Word that you will come to knowledge of the truth.


This is excellant advice. One more thing, we need to bow before God Almighty when we have doubts about His Word. All doubts are wrong and given to us by Satan. Just as Thomas doubted in Jesus resurection until Jesus told him to put his hands into Jesus side where He had been wounded.

Our human reasoning and logic will always fight the things we can accept only by faith, these things are foolishness to unbelievers, but food for the sole to those who believe. When you have doubts pray to God with an earnest heart and ask Him to strengthen your faith. God is faithful and will help you if are sincere. :)
 
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Jim47

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Reformationist said:
To clarify, what "doubts" are you saying are wrong? That is, doubts about what are wrong?

Thanks Jim,
God bless




Spiritual doubts. Doubts about God's Word, doubts about our faith or our salvation. Sorry I wasn't clearer. :)
 
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Jeremiahdavid

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The gravity of the crime is determined by the holiness of the Lawgiver, not whether you feel the punishment is fitting to the crime.
So to kill a rich man is a worse crime then to kill a poor man.


Man was created for the purposes of God, not the purposes of man. It is this very attitude of rebelliousness, i.e., arrogantly presuming to question the authority of your Creator to create as He will, that brought the Fall to pass. All you do is emphasize that Adam's representative role was a fitting appointment.
The purposes of God at the expense of Man?

Well, I don't know what you mean by "weak" but I do acknowledge that we love our sin and will often strive with all our might to indulge in it.
Not perfect is what i mean.

As for your claim, I didn't make anything so I cannot presume to tell the Creator what He can or cannot do with His creation. Either way, man was not created with a sinful proclivity so your assumptions about Eve's "weakness" are unfounded.
If Eve were perfect, she wouldn't have eaten from the tree.

Are you referring to Ananias? Or perhaps Herod? :scratch:
I read it along time ago but he struck two people dead, a man and his wife I think but I can't remeber why. I'll try and find it.

Jeremiahdavid, this forum is for those who are honestly seeking understanding of God and His Word.
Not a place to analyze history and avoid falling into the same mistake again?

Continue to read through the Holy Bible. It is through God's Word that you will come to knowledge of the truth.
So your saying that if I read the bible God will reveal himself to me like he did to Thomas. Let's see.

Wager ........................ Cost ....................Reward
What you say is true ......Read the bible......CertaintyofGod
......................................Finite ...................Infinite

Well, this is how Pascal would analyze it anyway. If that' what you're saying I should give it a shot.

Sry I couln't get to these earlier, oh and I'm gonna have to post twice because everytime I try to copy and paste this stupid pc messes it up somehow.
 
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Faith In God

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Jeremiahdavid said:
So to kill a rich man is a worse crime then to kill a poor man.
No. The point is, if you have a man who has never seen a dead body (much less murder)as a judge, don't you think he'll pass a stiffer sentence on a murderer than a judge who was, say, a member of the mafia?

The holier the judge, the harsher he must punish sin.
If Eve were perfect, she wouldn't have eaten from the tree.
Perfect = without sin. She had the choice, and she took it. That is the risk you take when you insert free will into the equation.
I read it along time ago but he struck two people dead, a man and his wife I think but I can't remeber why. I'll try and find it.
Ananias and Sophira. Because they lied about how much money they received for property they sold. They said "Here's all of what we have" when they were holding some of it back.

The penalty of sin is death.
Why are we still here? God is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish. :prayer:
 
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Jeremiahdavid

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No. The point is, if you have a man who has never seen a dead body (much less murder)as a judge, don't you think he'll pass a stiffer sentence on a murderer than a judge who was, say, a member of the mafia?
Yeah, maybe on Earth but God is supposed to know what is just.


Perfect = without sin. She had the choice, and she took it. That is the risk you take when you insert free will into the equation.
But God knew from the point he created Eve that she would bite from the apple.

Ananias and Sophira. Because they lied about how much money they received for property they sold. They said "Here's all of what we have" when they were holding some of it back.
OOOOOh harsh. But, as long as he didn't send them to hell I wouldn't say its too harsh.

The penalty of sin is death.
Why are we still here? God is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish.
:prayer:
Physical death? Yeah ok, as I said, no biggy there. Or is it spiritual death? Would God cut someone off from someone just for commiting a tiny sin when it is in their blood to sin>by the way, to date, know one has not sinned, so obviously we have no ability to hold ourselves back.
 
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Jim47

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Jeremiahdavid Why?! Why is it a sin to wonder? How can it be a sin to do the best that we as humans can(use logic)


Wondering is not the same as doubting. Perhaps a little hard to explain in this tread. I'll give you a bible verse and maybe that will help?

Jas 1:2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds,
Jas 1:3 because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.
Jas 1:4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
Jas 1:6 But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
Jas 1:7 That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord;
Jas 1:8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
Jas 1:9 The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position.
Jas 1:10 But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower.
Jas 1:11 For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business.
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
Jas 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Jas 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Jas 1:16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers.
Jas 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
Jas 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

(Logic?) Logic does not enter into faith. Faith is not logical, for we believe in what we can not see or prove. I'm sorry but I can't do better than that. The following should help explain.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
Heb 11:11 By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
Heb 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 19 Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.
Heb 11:23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
Heb 11:29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
Heb 11:31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.
Heb 11:32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned ; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
Heb 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 
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LilLamb219

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So your saying that if I read the bible God will reveal himself to me like he did to Thomas.

God's Word is living and active and does not return empty. So, to answer, through God's Word He will help you to learn who He is and how He saves man.
 
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kompia

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Jeremiahdavid said:
Yeah, maybe on Earth but God is supposed to know what is just.

Yes. God knows what is just. That why He has set a day to judge all the living and the dead according to their deeds on the earth.

Acts 17:31; For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

Not only Jesus will judge, but he will reveal all secrets. Men's darkest secrets...

Romans 2:16; This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

And everyone will have to give an account to God..

1 Peter 4:3-5; 3For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. 5But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.


Jeremiahdavid said:
But God knew from the point he created Eve that she would bite from the apple.

Yes, but God made a choice to let it happens. Just like we making choices to let our young child to crawl, to stand, to run and also to fall. All this in order that they will grow and stand on their own. If you read the bible right... You will see that God is still with Adam and Eve through their entire life and their next generations. So is today, God is still there with us. He never leave. Still loving and caring as He is.

 
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kompia

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Jeremiahdavid said:

OOOOOh harsh. But, as long as he didn't send them to hell I wouldn't say its too harsh.


To talk about Ananias and Sapphira.. You need to understand Peter's reply to them.

Acts 5:3-4; Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God."

Acts 5:9; Peter said to her, "How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of those who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."

Matthew 12:31; And so I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. But blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Both of them lied not to Peter, but to the Holy Spirit. Where are they now? Think about it.

Jeremiahdavid said:
Physical death? Yeah ok, as I said, no biggy there. Or is it spiritual death? Would God cut someone off from someone just for commiting a tiny sin when it is in their blood to sin, by the way, to date, know one has not sinned, so obviously we have no ability to hold ourselves back.


The answer to your statement, is YES. God will cut someone off just for committing a tiny sin. What about the sin that Adam and Eve committed, it's a big sin or small sin? Big or small, it is still a sin.

Stealing either a dollar or one million dollars, you will still be called a thief.

As stated by "butxifxnot", The wages of sin is death. And you are right by stating that everyone has sin. But God has a plan. A plan to erase the sin of man through one man, Jesus Christ. Jesus died on the cross two thousands year ago for your and my sin. But to receive this gift/salvation, we must acknowledge and receive Him as our Lord and Saviour. God made a choice to give man second chance to go back to Him with one only possible way. That's through Jesus Christ.

John 14:6; Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


 
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Reformationist

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Jeremiahdavid said:
So to kill a rich man is a worse crime then to kill a poor man.

The wealth of a person is immaterial to what I said. You implied that the crimes for which some stand condemned are, in your opinion, undeserving of eternal condemnation. I said that the seriousness of the offense is determined by the holiness of God, not whether you feel that the punishment fits the crime.

The purposes of God at the expense of Man?

Man is the creation of God, created to serve the purposes of God, whatsoever that may be. I am unclear as to what you mean by "the expense of man" but I will say that the destruction of those fitted for wrath serves the purposes of God as does those He has created as vessels of His mercy.

Not perfect is what i mean.

Man was not created imperfect. Man became imperfect when he was corrupted by sin's influence, a result that came to pass due to his own choices.

If Eve were perfect, she wouldn't have eaten from the tree.

While I could not tell you why Eve, or Adam, decided to disobey God, I can tell you that they did. Therefore, the proper understanding of their pre-Fall state is one of mutable perfection.

I read it along time ago but he struck two people dead, a man and his wife I think but I can't remeber why. I'll try and find it.

That would be Ananias. It is in Acts 5:

Acts 5:1-10
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him. Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?”
She said, “Yes, for so much.” Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband.

As you can see, both Ananias and his wife Sapphira sinned against the Lord. I understand that you probably feel that their death is unmerited but, that is due to your inaccurate understanding of the gravity of sinning against our holy God. It doesn't change the fact that doing so is still a tantamount to cosmic treason and such rebelliousness is deserving of death, so says the Lord God. And, being that He is the Eternal and Holy Judge, it is for Him to say. Deny it if you will but it changes nothing, nor does it change the fact that we will all stand before His judgment seat.

Not a place to analyze history and avoid falling into the same mistake again?

No clue why you felt like this was conducive to progressive discussion.
 
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Reformationist

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Jeremiahdavid said:
Would God cut someone off from someone just for commiting a tiny sin when it is in their blood to sin>by the way, to date, know one has not sinned, so obviously we have no ability to hold ourselves back.

There is no such thing in the eyes of a holy God as "a tiny sin." As sinners, we have a tendency to judge the severity of sin according to our own corrupted sense of judgment. As to your latter statement, Jesus never sinned so the message is that Adam could have refrained from sinning and, in doing so, merited glory for himself and his progeny, i.e., mankind.

God bless
 
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