Theological inconsistency

[Faith In God]

Who took the risk by "inserting free will into the equation?"

God.

Just like having a child is a risk. He might rebel, he might love.

 

[MariaRegina]

Christ is God. Therefore, He is the Only Sinless One.

And yes, all sin affects us in a negative way and tarnishes the Image of God that we are supposed to be. So, when we sin, we give scandal to others by even our most indeliberate sins.

We try the best we can. Repeatedly, we fall down, repent and get up again, until the day we die. But our God is a God of Great Mercy who is willing to forgive our sins, if we but ask Him.

So, too, we Christians should be willing to forgive all as the Lord's Prayer commands.

Forgive us our trespasses (debts) as we forgive those who trespass against us (our debtors).

 

[Reformationist]

God.

Just like having a child is a risk. He might rebel, he might love.

God took a "risk???" A risk is an action wherein there is a possibility that the result is not as planned. This is an impossibility for a sovereign God. Likewise, there is no "might" with God. God's knowledge is complete, just as is His power.

God bless

 

[Faith In God]

God took a "risk???" A risk is an action wherein there is a possibility that the result is not as planned. This is an impossibility for a sovereign God. Likewise, there is no "might" with God. God's knowledge is complete, just as is His power.

God bless

When jumping out of a plane, you risk your parachute not deploying. You can plan that. There are such things as emergency chutes.

You could argue that a risk is the possibility is the result is not preferred.

 

[FallingWaters]

First of all, I'de like to say, Forum rule # 6 is the stupidist thing I ever heard of and I almost left this forum for good as a result of it, but I seriously need this question answered by christians.

God is Just isn't he? It would seem he is not. This is why.

Suppose a man is brought up in an American Christian household and has thousands of oppurtunities to accept Jesus, but instead, he accepts him on his deathbed. Then, there is another man, he is given one oppurtunity to accept Jesus, doesn't, and then is hit by a car. But (God would know) he was going to accept Jesus tomorrow on his second opputunity. This is injustice becaus if I understand correctly he would be sent to hell as a result of not accepting the first time, yet the other man who had plenty of opputunities, gets to go to heaven with nothing more than shame of knowing that he forsaked God in the majority of his life. The second man deserves more than the first man, yet he recieves infinitely less. This is God being unjust and I don't see how that's possible for God, and this is one major reason I'm reluctant to declare belief in God.

By the way, I can't stay long to talk of this, but I will be here tomorrow.

Firstly, let me say I love when people have an honest question and are open to being convinced otherwise than they presently are. I hope my response helps you.

Your hypothesis has a bad foundation. You say God would let a man die who was going to receive Jesus tomorrow. You do not know that, and neither can you prove that God would do such a thing.

Your scenario has a second problem as addressed in a parable that Jesus told:
Matthew 20
1“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4and said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. 5Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. 6And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing £idle, and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day?’ 7They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, £and whatever is right you will receive.’
8“So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’ 9And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, 12saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ 13But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’

Jesus' last question is for you. We should not dare to judge the goodness of God.

Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

 

[Jeremiahdavid]

Wondering is not the same as doubting. Perhaps a little hard to explain in this tread. I'll give you a bible verse and maybe that will help?

Why would God want us to ignore plain logic and follow a religion that demands constant uncertainty for salvation?

(Logic?) Logic does not enter into faith. Faith is not logical, for we believe in what we can not see or prove. I'm sorry but I can't do better than that. The following should help explain.

Are you saying that it is impossible to be a rational Christian?

God's Word is living and active and does not return empty. So, to answer, through God's Word He will help you to learn who He is and how He saves man.

Then I will try it and I will listen, but I'm not gonna do something stupid like hallucinate my way into Christianity.

Yes. God knows what is just. That why He has set a day to judge all the living and the dead according to their deeds on the earth.

It is not just, to make a man burn alive for all of eternity for stealing an apple. Or even for killing the Jews(Hitler)! None of it is fit for the punishment.

Yes, but God made a choice to let it happens. Just like we making choices to let our young child to crawl, to stand, to run and also to fall. All this in order that they will grow and stand on their own. If you read the bible right... You will see that God is still with Adam and Eve through their entire life and their next generations. So is today, God is still there with us. He never leave. Still loving and caring as He is.

If I were the parent, I would allow my child to fall but I would not punish him were he not sucessful. I would encourage him to do better. I would teach him, and I would have him learn from his own mistakes but I would never hurt him just because he chose to hurt himself. I believe that all are capable of becoming spirtually aware and if not, it is because God made them that way. In scenario #1, God should give all of them as much time as they need to do so and it would be unjust for God to put a timetable on it. In scenario #2, God made them that way and is responcible so should either fix it, or allow them to enjoy the bliss anyway.

Both of them lied not to Peter, but to the Holy Spirit. Where are they now? Think about it.

Please define blasphemy. If I were to say to the holy spirit, I am typing in red letters, would that be blasphemy?

The answer to your statement, is YES. God will cut someone off just for committing a tiny sin. What about the sin that Adam and Eve committed, it's a big sin or small sin? Big or small, it is still a sin.

Stealing either a dollar or one million dollars, you will still be called a thief.

As stated by "butxifxnot", The wages of sin is death. And you are right by stating that everyone has sin. But God has a plan. A plan to erase the sin of man through one man, Jesus Christ. Jesus died on the cross two thousands year ago for your and my sin. But to receive this gift/salvation, we must acknowledge and receive Him as our Lord and Saviour. God made a choice to give man second chance to go back to Him with one only possible way. That's through Jesus Christ.

John 14:6; Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

You didn't respond to the last part of my responce. We have no ability whatsoever to prevent ourselves from sinning. How then, can God deem it just to make us all burn in hell.

The wealth of a person is immaterial to what I said. You implied that the crimes for which some stand condemned are, in your opinion, undeserving of eternal condemnation. I said that the seriousness of the offense is determined by the holiness of God, not whether you feel that the punishment fits the crime.

Ok then, are you saying that if I am judged by a priest, it is ok for that priest to give me a sentence 1000x that I would recieve elsewhere? No, that is not just. It is wrong. I can understand zero tolerance towards sin but not when the only way to make up for it is choosing a religion that you arn't sure of.

Man was not created imperfect. Man became imperfect when he was corrupted by sin's influence, a result that came to pass due to his own choices.

If we were perfect, why did Eve get tricked?

No clue why you felt like this was conducive to progressive discussion.

It was just trust me on this, but I can't explain why.

 

[FallingWaters]

Why would God want us to ignore plain logic and follow a religion that demands constant uncertainty for salvation?

Are you saying that it is impossible to be a rational Christian?

Then I will try it and I will listen, but I'm not gonna do something stupid like hallucinate my way into Christianity.

Hi, I have not read the whole thread because well, frankly it looks like you guys are in way over my head... but I can tell from these comments I have quoted, that you're looking for logic and reason.

What you want may be above the expertise of the average everyday Joe. So I have some resources to recommend to you which I know are out there just for persons such as yourself who are thinking deeply into the subject.

Firstly, if you like listening to the radio or the internet, I recommend Hank Hannegraff. This guy is all about logic and reason.
He hosts the Bible Answer Man broadcast as President of the Christian Research Institute. (Lest you think he's vain, "Bible Answer Man" began as a derogatory name aimed at his predecessor, Walter Martin.) From this link you can navigate around their site.
Bible Answer Man

My two favorite Presbyterians/theologians:
Reason to Believe : A Response to Common Objections to Christianity (Paperback) by R. C. Sproul

Why I Believe (Paperback) by D. James Kennedy

Previous agnostic: Josh McDowell
During his journey to discredit the resurrection of Christ, Josh discovered compelling historical evidence for the reliability of the Christian faith.
Evidence for Christianity (Mcdowell, Josh) (Paperback) by Josh McDowell
Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1 (Paperback) by Josh McDowell


The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus (Paperback) by Lee Strobel


These are some books that are written, I think with persons like you in mind who want to have rational, logical reasons based on substantive evidence.

I will remind you what Dale Carnegie always said, "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still." [If a person doesn't want to believe, no one can make him.]

I leave you with this:
"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6

I wish you good success.

 

[Jeremiahdavid]

Hi, I have not read the whole thread because well, frankly it looks like you guys are in way over my head... but I can tell from these comments I have quoted, that you're looking for logic and reason.

What you want may be above the expertise of the average everyday Joe. So I have some resources to recommend to you which I know are out there just for persons such as yourself who are thinking deeply into the subject.

Firstly, if you like listening to the radio or the internet, I recommend Hank Hannegraff. This guy is all about logic and reason.
He hosts the Bible Answer Man broadcast as President of the Christian Research Institute. (Lest you think he's vain, "Bible Answer Man" began as a derogatory name aimed at his predecessor, Walter Martin.) From this link you can navigate around their site.
Bible Answer Man

My two favorite Presbyterians/theologians:
Reason to Believe : A Response to Common Objections to Christianity (Paperback) by R. C. Sproul

Why I Believe (Paperback) by D. James Kennedy

Previous agnostic: Josh McDowell
During his journey to discredit the resurrection of Christ, Josh discovered compelling historical evidence for the reliability of the Christian faith.
Evidence for Christianity (Mcdowell, Josh) (Paperback) by Josh McDowell
Evidence That Demands a Verdict, 1 (Paperback) by Josh McDowell


The Case for Christ: A Journalist's Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus (Paperback) by Lee Strobel


These are some books that are written, I think with persons like you in mind who want to have rational, logical reasons based on substantive evidence.

I will remind you what Dale Carnegie always said, "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still." [If a person doesn't want to believe, no one can make him.]

I leave you with this:
"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6

I wish you good success.

Thank you for these.

 

[FallingWaters]

Thank you for these.

You are most kindly welcome.

 

[Harlan Norris]

First of all, I'de like to say, Forum rule # 6 is the stupidist thing I ever heard of and I almost left this forum for good as a result of it, but I seriously need this question answered by christians.

God is Just isn't he? It would seem he is not. This is why.

Suppose a man is brought up in an American Christian household and has thousands of oppurtunities to accept Jesus, but instead, he accepts him on his deathbed. Then, there is another man, he is given one oppurtunity to accept Jesus, doesn't, and then is hit by a car. But (God would know) he was going to accept Jesus tomorrow on his second opputunity. This is injustice becaus if I understand correctly he would be sent to hell as a result of not accepting the first time, yet the other man who had plenty of opputunities, gets to go to heaven with nothing more than shame of knowing that he forsaked God in the majority of his life. The second man deserves more than the first man, yet he recieves infinitely less. This is God being unjust and I don't see how that's possible for God, and this is one major reason I'm reluctant to declare belief in God.

By the way, I can't stay long to talk of this, but I will be here tomorrow.

No one really knows the truth behind Gods works.Things look a certain way to us.We don't know all there is to know about anything.You can live right with someone and not know them.God knows us all.I feel certain that God's will is based on what God Knows.I found my faith late in life.I thank God for his grace.I pray that God will extend his grace to those I know that aren't saved.Also those I don't know.None of us deserves life.I thank God for all that receive it.What about you? The offer is just laying there on the table.Will you accept?

 

[OnTheWay]

God took a "risk???" A risk is an action wherein there is a possibility that the result is not as planned. This is an impossibility for a sovereign God. Likewise, there is no "might" with God. God's knowledge is complete, just as is His power.

God bless

So what you are saying is that because God is sovereign he cannot do what he wants to do? It would seem some protestants need to learn that just because God has authority does not mean he choses to exercise it at all times.

 

[Jeremiahdavid]

So what you are saying is that because God is sovereign he cannot do what he wants to do? It would seem some protestants need to learn that just because God has authority does not mean he choses to exercise it at all times.

Ok, I know I'm not part of this but the word risk, means that there is an unforseen factor and if there is an all seeing God I imagine there is nothing he could not forsee. Thus, his actions cannot be risks, but at the most, a plan with a phase which seems like failure. I was talking with my friend the other day about how at the hajj in Mecca all the believers circle around it to put God in his place at the center of the universe and he said, "I put God in his place in all the universe" so I said, " where was God when you got mugged by some guy who took all your money" and he quoted a verse of scripture that went along these lines, "God works all things together for his greater good" ironically somewhere in the book of Jeremiah and what I have realized is that this verse really does portray the ultimate truth if theism itself is truth. If there is a Perfect, loving God, then somehow, all this has to work together. This is a much briefer and simpler way of putting everything I just explained. When you play the game of risk, you attack hoping that your enemy won't roll lucky dice. God knows they will, and he has already come up with a counter strike.

 

[Jim47]

http://jeremiahdavid.christianforums.com/

Jeremiahdavid
I will not gamble with eternity. I will play life as if it were a game. I will not decieve myself. I will believe what is logical to believe. I will do the best I can with this life, but it is not right to join a religion blindly therefore I will do what is right unless God tells me otherwise.

http://jeremiahdavid.christianforums.com/http://jeremiahdavid.christianforums.com/http://jeremiahdavid.christianforums.com/


Hi Jeremiah

As you can see I have copied your signature. From what I observe about your signature you have set up a defence perimeter to protect yourself. I say this because you only accept what your reason and logic believes to make sence.

1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1Co 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
1Co 1:22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
1Co 1:24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
1Co 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
1Co 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
1Co 1:28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no one may boast before him.


Scripture was written to seem knowledgable, and God's plan of salvation is follishness to those who don't believe. That is why so mnay reject it, because they try to embrace it with wisdom but fail. It can only be accepted thru faith, but once you have that faith and believe God opens up your eyes, or your heart, and then you can see clearly how foolish you were not to believe.

There is no risk involved on our part. God paid the price in full to redeem you as His child. He only asks that you believe and accept Him and Jesus His Son as your Savior.

 

[Jeremiahdavid]

Hi Jeremiah

As you can see I have copied your signature. From what I observe about your signature you have set up a defence perimeter to protect yourself. I say this because you only accept what your reason and logic believes to make sence.

1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1Co 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
1Co 1:22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
1Co 1:24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
1Co 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
1Co 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
1Co 1:28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no one may boast before him.


Scripture was written to seem knowledgable, and God's plan of salvation is follishness to those who don't believe. That is why so mnay reject it, because they try to embrace it with wisdom but fail. It can only be accepted thru faith, but once you have that faith and believe God opens up your eyes, or your heart, and then you can see clearly how foolish you were not to believe.

There is no risk involved on our part. God paid the price in full to redeem you as His child. He only asks that you believe and accept Him and Jesus His Son as your Savior.

Well, maybe the logic of God will be revealed to me by him. If not, how can I set aside my naturally rational beliefs?

 

[DonVA]

Ok, I know I'm not part of this but the word risk, means that there is an unforseen factor and if there is an all seeing God I imagine there is nothing he could not forsee. Thus, his actions cannot be risks, but at the most, a plan with a phase which seems like failure. I was talking with my friend the other day about how at the hajj in Mecca all the believers circle around it to put God in his place at the center of the universe and he said, "I put God in his place in all the universe" so I said, " where was God when you got mugged by some guy who took all your money" and he quoted a verse of scripture that went along these lines, "God works all things together for his greater good" ironically somewhere in the book of Jeremiah and what I have realized is that this verse really does portray the ultimate truth if theism itself is truth. If there is a Perfect, loving God, then somehow, all this has to work together. This is a much briefer and simpler way of putting everything I just explained. When you play the game of risk, you attack hoping that your enemy won't roll lucky dice. God knows they will, and he has already come up with a counter strike.

....and who are we to ask God to reveal His logic? God's will is for Him to determine, not for us to second-guess.

Sorry for barging in. I just know I used to think that way, too..."why, why, why...?" But, truly, who am I to demand that God justify His last move (or His next, for that matter?).

I'm a sinner on earth and am completely at His mercy.

 

[DonVA]

So what you are saying is that because God is sovereign he cannot do what he wants to do? It would seem some protestants need to learn that just because God has authority does not mean he choses to exercise it at all times.

That's True! Humans have a free will. Otherwise, we'd be like a bunch of little puppets bouncing around under God's control. It's up to us to control ourselves. God will intervene when He sees fit.

 

[Jeremiahdavid]

That's True! Humans have a free will. Otherwise, we'd be like a bunch of little puppets bouncing around under God's control. It's up to us to control ourselves. God will intervene when He sees fit.

Look, obviousy, if there is a god, he doesn't always choose to exercise his authority. That's like saying that if the world is round, its shaped like a sphere. But what he said was trying to defend the idea that God is capable of taking risks, which, as I explained, is impossible.

 

[FallingWaters]

Did you get your hands on any of those resources yet that I recommended?

 

[Jeremiahdavid]

Not yet, I havn't been to the library. I've got to round up some books that are seriously overdue before I go, and we are getting ready to move so a lot of that stuff is packed up, but soon, I'll get up there.