Theological inconsistency

[Jeremiahdavid]

First of all, I'de like to say, Forum rule # 6 is the stupidist thing I ever heard of and I almost left this forum for good as a result of it, but I seriously need this question answered by christians.

God is Just isn't he? It would seem he is not. This is why.

Suppose a man is brought up in an American Christian household and has thousands of oppurtunities to accept Jesus, but instead, he accepts him on his deathbed. Then, there is another man, he is given one oppurtunity to accept Jesus, doesn't, and then is hit by a car. But (God would know) he was going to accept Jesus tomorrow on his second opputunity. This is injustice becaus if I understand correctly he would be sent to hell as a result of not accepting the first time, yet the other man who had plenty of opputunities, gets to go to heaven with nothing more than shame of knowing that he forsaked God in the majority of his life. The second man deserves more than the first man, yet he recieves infinitely less. This is God being unjust and I don't see how that's possible for God, and this is one major reason I'm reluctant to declare belief in God.

By the way, I can't stay long to talk of this, but I will be here tomorrow.

 

[Stinker]

This is one of the pitfalls of the early Churches' changing of the ancient Zoroastrian teaching of hell.

The ancient Zoroastrian teaching of hell is that it is a 'temporary' fire that is going to cleanse every individual in that place from the effects of the negative thoughts, words, and deeds, done while they were on earth. After they are cleansed they can then join God and the rest of the saved (whose lives consisted of mostly good thoughts, words and deeds).

 

[Mrs12bfishin]

First of all, I'de like to say, Forum rule # 6 is the stupidist thing I ever heard of and I almost left this forum for good as a result of it, but I seriously need this question answered by christians.

God is Just isn't he? It would seem he is not. This is why.

Suppose a man is brought up in an American Christian household and has thousands of oppurtunities to accept Jesus, but instead, he accepts him on his deathbed. Then, there is another man, he is given one oppurtunity to accept Jesus, doesn't, and then is hit by a car. But (God would know) he was going to accept Jesus tomorrow on his second opputunity. This is injustice becaus if I understand correctly he would be sent to hell as a result of not accepting the first time, yet the other man who had plenty of opputunities, gets to go to heaven with nothing more than shame of knowing that he forsaked God in the majority of his life. The second man deserves more than the first man, yet he recieves infinitely less. This is God being unjust and I don't see how that's possible for God, and this is one major reason I'm reluctant to declare belief in God.

By the way, I can't stay long to talk of this, but I will be here tomorrow.

I find this a little difficult to answer because this is all theoretical. I believe God is omnipotent and omnipresent. I believe he knows the hearts of everyone. I believe if a person is seeking God, than God will find a way to get the gospel to that person. We are never promised another day and we have no idea what the future holds. I certainly don't promote living your life the way you want to so you can accept Christ on your deathbed, but I know it has happened and I am thankful for it. And while it is sad to think of people dying without having accepted Christ and being born again, many people have chosen that.

However, in my heart of hearts, I truly believe if a person was going to accept Christ the very next day they would be given a chance. But this is certainly not to say, a person should put off accepting Christ when they have the truth in front of them.

Also, we don't see the whole scheme of things. We have no idea how one thing affects another. I believe everything happens for a reason and God works for the greater good for those that love him.

 

[*~DJ~*]

If you are absolutely certain that a person is going to accept Jesus tomorrow... why wait until tomorrow? We are not assured of another day. If the truth is there, take it! It is what God wants. If a person accepts on his deathbed, then he is saved. But remember, our rewards in heaven are according to our works on earth! God would be unjust if He let a unsaved man into heaven. He is not washed of his sins. It would go against God's Holy nature and His perfect justice. Jesus is always there for everyone, all they have to do is accept. It they wait to long, is it God's fault? No, I don't think so. God has given every man the ability to chose for himself, if you choose to wait and they die, only that person can be held responsible.

 

[crumbs2000]

I find this a little difficult to answer because this is all theoretical. I believe God is omnipotent and omnipresent. I believe he knows the hearts of everyone. I believe if a person is seeking God, than God will find a way to get the gospel to that person. We are never promised another day and we have no idea what the future holds. I certainly don't promote living your life the way you want to so you can accept Christ on your deathbed, but I know it has happened and I am thankful for it. And while it is sad to think of people dying without having accepted Christ and being born again, many people have chosen that.

However, in my heart of hearts, I truly believe if a person was going to accept Christ the very next day they would be given a chance. But this is certainly not to say, a person should put off accepting Christ when they have the truth in front of them.

Also, we don't see the whole scheme of things. We have no idea how one thing affects another. I believe everything happens for a reason and God works for the greater good for those that love him.

Finally, a refreshing thing to see in this forum. Someone who doesn't think they know what's in God's mind but answers honestly.

 

[Mrs12bfishin]

Finally, a refreshing thing to see in this forum. Someone who doesn't think they know what's in God's mind but answers honestly.

Thank you. I don't often get compliments such as that!

 

[Avenger]

djkraemoore's post (number 4) was awesome and answered the opening post's questions very well. We alone are responsible for our actions or inactions and our beliefs, and the consequences of them.


I also liked the last part of Mrs12bfishin's post (number 3) in particularly when she spoke of us not being able to see the big picture as God does. That is so true; there have been countless times where a person's relative has died and then they get to thinking about death and what happens after and then accept the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, while I don't believe that God causes these things to occur (I believe that they happen because we live in a messed up world because of sin), I do believe that He works all things (both good and bad, joyful and painful) for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28). Even though you may be going through a hard time, God could be using the circumstances that surround you to get your attention and call you to Himself.

"Then, there is another man, he is given one oppurtunity to accept Jesus, doesn't, and then is hit by a car."

​

That is perhaps why the Bible says now is the day of salvation in 2 Corinthians 6:2 (TNIV), because you never know when your number is up. Why keep putting it off? As this hypothetical situation reminds us, you may not have another chance to invite Jesus into your life. And that, would be a shame.

Also, you are not just given one opportunity to accept Christ or even two, three, four, etc.. His offer of salvation is always available, every second of every day. If you reject Him then you are telling Him to go away with His offer to take your sins away from you (which means that you cling to your sins) and must take on the punishment for those sins that you deserve. It is justice.

Although the former person was lucky in that he lived so long and on his deathbed (why wait as there is so much God can do for you now in this life?) he was able to get right with God and the latter person did not have this luxury, they both heard the Gospel message and thus cannot plead ignorance before God. If you do not act upon what has been told to you, then you are still clinging to your sins and deserve the punishment for those sins. If you put off your decision to accept Christ then who's fault is that? Yours or God's? It is your fault as djkraemoore pointed out in his post (number 4) and as sad as it is, you will have to take responsibility for the consequences of your actions.

As sad as this hypothetical situation really is, the Bible teaches that because we are sinners we deserve eternal death (because as Paul explains in Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death). So in that respect, God is just - for the person who rejects Christ will get what they deserve. We should praise God that He is not only just, but that He is merciful and gracious.

You see, rather than you and I getting what we deserve, Jesus chose to take our punishment upon Himself when His blood was shed and the sin of the world was placed upon Him. Through our faith in Jesus we can be saved as we in effect hand our sins over to Him when we ask for forgiveness; not only that, we become co-heirs with Christ and also receive the very presense of God - the Holy Spirit. What a deal! Rather than getting what we deserve, God showed mercy to us by dying on the cross and then extended it further to show us grace (that is, giving us what we don't deserve) by making us children of God and co-heirs with Jesus!

Far from God being injust, He is just to those who ask for it (tip: never ask God for justice as you deserve eternal death because of your sins) and merciful and gracious to those who seek it.

By the way, I am sory about the length. I got carried away... May peace be with you all.

 

[intricatic]

God doesn't deal in might have been's or could have been's, but what is and was and will be.

The hypothetical situation you're describing is, by all accounts, a might-have-been. Thusly, it has no bearing on the future, because it would change nothing if the man died in a car accident - that's his fate, it's over and done with. God may know what may happen either way, but those things did not happen - the man never made a conscious choice, and died in a freak accident. Whether He offers grace or not is not my, or anyone else's place to argue. We don't know, simply. It's a might-have-been.

Can you imagine a world without hypothetical situations?

 

[Reformationist]

First of all, I'de like to say, Forum rule # 6 is the stupidist thing I ever heard of and I almost left this forum for good as a result of it, but I seriously need this question answered by christians.

Um..what is rule #6? I can't find it. If it's the stupidest thing ever and I can't find it, I wonder if that makes me even more stupid than the "stupidest thing you've ever heard of..."

God is Just isn't he?

Yes.

It would seem he is not. This is why.

Okay. Let's take a look...

Suppose a man is brought up in an American Christian household and has thousands of oppurtunities to accept Jesus, but instead, he accepts him on his deathbed. Then, there is another man, he is given one oppurtunity to accept Jesus, doesn't, and then is hit by a car. But (God would know) he was going to accept Jesus tomorrow on his second opputunity. This is injustice becaus if I understand correctly he would be sent to hell as a result of not accepting the first time, yet the other man who had plenty of opputunities, gets to go to heaven with nothing more than shame of knowing that he forsaked God in the majority of his life.

No. We do not go to Heaven because we accept Jesus. This is an inaccurate understanding of redemption and reconciliation. Our "acceptance" of Jesus is the invariable product of being made alive through God's monergistic work of regeneration. He takes out our "heart of stone" (nature that is opposed to God) and replaces it with a "heart of flesh" (pliable heart that desires to serve and obey God in love). When He does so, our spiritual polarity is changed and we submit to God as Lord and Savior. Our submission is the result of His gracious work, not the means to it.

The second man deserves more than the first man, yet he recieves infinitely less.

Actually, both deserve condemnation for their sins. If God refrains from imputing guilt upon any undeserving person it is a sign and measure of His mercy and those who receive justice for their sinfulness have no basis for crying foul because they, too, are undeserving of His mercy and salvation.

This is God being unjust and I don't see how that's possible for God, and this is one major reason I'm reluctant to declare belief in God.

God is unjust to no man. He may not exercise justice against someone but that evidences His merciful nature. It does not make Him unjust. Just because He dispenses His mercy upon one person does not make Him obligated to do so for anyone else, nor does it make Him unjust if He chooses not to.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

First off, knowing that we need a Savior is the result of being made aware of the binding authority of the Law of God and our failure to keep that Law perfectly, as God demands. Second, accepting Jesus as our Savior is not the instrumental cause of our justification before God. We aren't saved because we accept Jesus because only those whom God has graciously deigned to regenerate "accept Jesus." IOW, "accepting Jesus" is result of being made alive, not the means to it.

A person will submit to Christ as Lord and Savior the second God ordains that He will, and not a moment sooner, or later. It's not random. It's specific. A person is regenerated and believes in the Lord unto salvation the moment God regenerates them and gives them faith.

God controls history, not events that, to us, appear accidents of chance or fate.

God bless

 

[Merlin]

You are Judged on Judgement day based on your 'heart' which God knows. He will judge appropriately based on that knowledge.
God doesn't care about the mechanics of what you do or when.

 

[LilLamb219]

Suppose a man is brought up in an American Christian household and has thousands of oppurtunities to accept Jesus, but instead, he accepts him on his deathbed. Then, there is another man, he is given one oppurtunity to accept Jesus, doesn't, and then is hit by a car. But (God would know) he was going to accept Jesus tomorrow on his second opputunity. This is injustice becaus if I understand correctly he would be sent to hell as a result of not accepting the first time, yet the other man who had plenty of opputunities, gets to go to heaven with nothing more than shame of knowing that he forsaked God in the majority of his life. The second man deserves more than the first man, yet he recieves infinitely less. This is God being unjust and I don't see how that's possible for God, and this is one major reason I'm reluctant to declare belief in God.

First off, God makes Christians; we can't make ourselves into Christians. We can't decide or choose or accept to be Christians because before conversion, we are spiritually dead.

So, your questions are asking the wrong thing and is placing salvation upon man which is not what Christianity is about. Salvation is about God saving us. God is the one who gives people the gift of faith in order to "believe" so that we may have eternal life. That faith grasps onto the cross and the forgiveness of sins.

Man can and does reject because scripture says so. But man cannot "accept" in order to gain salvation. Anyone who says he accepted Jesus really should be saying that because the Holy Spirit worked faith in him that he believes in Jesus and trusts in Him. It may sound like it's just semantics, but it's not; wording means a lot and this is why there is so much confusion amongst non-Christians and questions posed to us that put man in the driver's seat of salvation.

 

[Jim47]

First of all, I'de like to say, Forum rule # 6 is the stupidist thing I ever heard of and I almost left this forum for good as a result of it, but I seriously need this question answered by christians.

God is Just isn't he? It would seem he is not. This is why.

Suppose a man is brought up in an American Christian household and has thousands of oppurtunities to accept Jesus, but instead, he accepts him on his deathbed. Then, there is another man, he is given one oppurtunity to accept Jesus, doesn't, and then is hit by a car. But (God would know) he was going to accept Jesus tomorrow on his second opputunity. This is injustice becaus if I understand correctly he would be sent to hell as a result of not accepting the first time, yet the other man who had plenty of opputunities, gets to go to heaven with nothing more than shame of knowing that he forsaked God in the majority of his life. The second man deserves more than the first man, yet he recieves infinitely less. This is God being unjust and I don't see how that's possible for God, and this is one major reason I'm reluctant to declare belief in God.

By the way, I can't stay long to talk of this, but I will be here tomorrow.

What you have done is rewrite the rules and how you think God works.

The instance you gave above is not valid. Because there is no next day for the man who died and God knew that before this man was ever even born. God knows everything that will happen in your life before your exhistance began. Because of this, there never was a next day for the man you mentioned above, so God is not at fault. God can look into a mans heart and his future, and if sees that someday that man will come to faith and repentance God will make sure that he has that chance.

 

[Jeremiahdavid]

This is one of the pitfalls of the early Churches' changing of the ancient Zoroastrian teaching of hell.

The ancient Zoroastrian teaching of hell is that it is a 'temporary' fire that is going to cleanse every individual in that place from the effects of the negative thoughts, words, and deeds, done while they were on earth. After they are cleansed they can then join God and the rest of the saved (whose lives consisted of mostly good thoughts, words and deeds).

This seems alot better than regular Christianity which seems to suggest that God is completely unforgiving to those who get unlucky. I should look into this form of Christianity because it is much more consistent.

I find this a little difficult to answer because this is all theoretical. I believe God is omnipotent and omnipresent. I believe he knows the hearts of everyone. I believe if a person is seeking God, than God will find a way to get the gospel to that person. We are never promised another day and we have no idea what the future holds. I certainly don't promote living your life the way you want to so you can accept Christ on your deathbed, but I know it has happened and I am thankful for it. And while it is sad to think of people dying without having accepted Christ and being born again, many people have chosen that.

However, in my heart of hearts, I truly believe if a person was going to accept Christ the very next day they would be given a chance. But this is certainly not to say, a person should put off accepting Christ when they have the truth in front of them.

Also, we don't see the whole scheme of things. We have no idea how one thing affects another. I believe everything happens for a reason and God works for the greater good for those that love him.

So do you believe that if we created a scenario like this God would be forced to create a miracle. Could you use something like this to prove God?

You see, rather than you and I getting what we deserve, Jesus chose to take our punishment upon Himself when His blood was shed and the sin of the world was placed upon Him.

You and I do not deserve anything. We were corrupted from birth by sin.

 

[Jeremiahdavid]

I just looked over some more posts, and it seems like God is completely unreasonable. We can't choose to accept God while we are not already Christains? Holy Stuff! That means that no matter how much I want to serve God, God won't necessarily want me to serve him. Even if God chooses me, I will not follow him because he has forsaken my agnostic brothers who will never know him. We choose to be humble in our lack of sureness, and for it we are sent to hell. I would sooner join the satanists in their hope to overthrow God, than join an evil God. And from what I'm hearing, God is evil.

 

[Key]

Only christians can post anywhere but here.

Umm did you miss GA one "Group" down, in discussion and debate? That's for all users.

You will notice that there is a Christains ONLY area, and a "Everyone" area.

Please be advised of this in the future.

I will serve no God who demands blind obedience, for me to accept God now would be to accept him blindly.

But you are gambling with your soul right now as it is. Why should tomorrow be any diffrent?

The Road to Hell is Paved with our Actions. Being Unsure or Humble won't send you to hell.

Being a Sinner will.

God Bless

Key

 

[Jim47]

I just looked over some more posts, and it seems like God is completely unreasonable. We can't choose to accept God while we are not already Christains? Holy Stuff! That means that no matter how much I want to serve God, God won't necessarily want me to serve him. Even if God chooses me, I will not follow him because he has forsaken my agnostic brothers who will never know him. We choose to be humble in our lack of sureness, and for it we are sent to hell. I would sooner join the satanists in their hope to overthrow God, than join an evil God. And from what I'm hearing, God is evil.

Ps 14:1 The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.
Ps 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven
on the sons of men
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
Ps 14:3 All have turned aside,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
Ps 14:4 Will evildoers never learn—
those who devour my people as men eat bread
and who do not call on the LORD?
Ps 14:5 There they are, overwhelmed with dread,
for God is present in the company of the righteous.
Ps 14:6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor,
but the LORD is their refuge.
Ps 14:7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!




And God would say to you "Who are you oh mighty man that you set in judgement of Me?"

God does not want you or your unbelieveing friends to perish, but you have to first stop acting like you are God. God only makes Himself known to those who are humble of heart. He looks down on the proud as utter follishness. If you want to know God and understand Him than humble yourself to Him and submit to His will.

 

[Jim47]

Though you may not like it, here is some more scripture that addresses your problem.


Ro 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Ro 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Ro 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

 

[Reformationist]

In responce to the rest, if this is true, than God decides whether or not we get saved, and that, itself, is unjust. why does he create us only to destoy us. This is not a merciful God.

Well, I'm not sure that you're ready to fully address this issue of sovereign election because it seems that you are already in a state of rebellion against the authority of God.

Hopefully it will suffice to say that God gave mankind an opportunity for wealth or ruin and man, in Adam, chose ruin. Adam was appointed as a federal representative for his progeny, i.e., mankind. When Adam chose to disobey God, he incurred guilt for himself and all those for whom he stood as representative.

I believe that there is only one evil in the world. That evil is deception. I believe that if you knew everything you would cease to be evil. Thus, we are not responcible for our actions. And even when we take christian theology for what it is, we all inherited our evil, and thus are not responcible for it. And god created satan, knowing what would happen.

Ignorance has never been an excuse, though many try to employ it as a means for exaltation.

If you ever truly desire to explore the riches of God's mercy toward man, please feel free to let us know.

God bless

 

[chilehed]

...God is Just isn't he? It would seem he is not. This is why...

You've described how a Protestant would say the situation would work out, but there's a serious disagreement between Protestants and Catholics on this matter. A Catholic would say that the situation you describe isn't necessarily how it works.

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.

So depending on the circumstances, the guy who got hit by the car may not burn after all. But if he makes it into heaven, it'll be entirely because of Jesus' work on the cross.