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Theistic Evolution / Random Convergence or Spontaneous Generation

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gluadys

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In order for Evolution to be true, and for all of the different species to come about at the (nearly) same time.

Why all at the same time?

There would have to be some kind of merging of dissimilar species.

Not true. Look up "cladistic speciation". Evolution is more about splitting one species into two than about merging two species into one. The latter is called fusion and it happens occasionally, but it is not the norm.



For which is not demonstrated and why the links are missing.

Since you are looking for the wrong kind of evidence, of course it is missing. Look for evidence of cladistic speciation. There is plenty of evidence for that.

And again I say, that in the rock strata while one group died out, another suddenly came about. That is not possible if Evolution is true.

Sure it is. It is an artifact of fossilization. IOW most species do not leave a fossil record. Also many species first evolve in a restricted area and then migrate to other areas where they appear to replace the former population suddenly.

And also as for these days; we are losing species, not gaining.

Too true. It has happened before and it takes a long time for the biosphere to recover from a mass extinction.

If Evolution is true, then how come the prehistoric life that is alive now did not continue to evolve?

It takes environmental pressure to force evolution. Species well-adapted to a stable environment don't change much.
 
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GuardianShua

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Evidence?

Different species come about at all the same time? Can you cite a source of that information?

Species died out and another suddenly appear in rock? Can you provide more information on this, with a citation? Can you explain what you know about geology, depositional rates, facies analysis, etc?

There are observed, documented cases of speciation. citation.

Prehistoric life today fills and environmental niche whereby they are not required to evolve.

You really need to read this website (http://evolution.berkeley.edu/). It will help answer your questions.
You need to take off the rose colored glasses. I looked at the website and it has more holes than Swiss cheese. Humans are humans, and apes are apes, and wolves, foxes, and coyote are dogs. Variations of groups is not proof of Evolution. Proof of Evolution is when a horse and a deer can have offspring that can reproduce.
 
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Assyrian

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There would have to be some kind of merging of dissimilar species.
Not true. Look up "cladistic speciation". Evolution is more about splitting one species into two than about merging two species into one. The latter is called fusion and it happens occasionally, but it is not the norm.
I think this may be a problem of the language he is using describe evolution. It sound like he is looking back in time and tracing the different species as they merge into their common ancestor. Of course they are not merging, we are watching divergence played backwards.

So the question is really, how can you look at two dissimilar species and say they both came from a common ancestor. The thing is, if you take to closely related species like human and chimps, they are not that similar now, but if you trace human lineage back, the further back you go the more chimp like we were. When species diverged they were very similar, the differences grew as temi went on.
 
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Molal

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You need to take off the rose colored glasses. I looked at the website and it has more holes than Swiss cheese. Humans are humans, and apes are apes, and wolves, foxes, and coyote are dogs. Variations of groups is not proof of Evolution. Proof of Evolution is when a horse and a deer can have offspring that can reproduce.
Can you provide any evidence for your assertions? Can you try to answer any of the questions posed?

Come on, if you are so sure that evolution then there must be evidence....surely. I can't stand it when people evade the questions.

Firstly proof does not exist in science. Proof is reserved for mathematics and liquor. Secondly, a horse and deer will never be able to reproduce - exactly what evolution predicts. The fact that thye can't is evidence for evolution.

It is clear your understanding of evolution is fundmentally flawed.
 
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Jester4kicks

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In order for Evolution to be true, and for all of the different species to come about at the (nearly) same time. There would have to be some kind of merging of dissimilar species. For which is not demonstrated and why the links are missing. And again I say, that in the rock strata while one group died out, another suddenly came about. That is not possible if Evolution is true. And also as for these days; we are losing species, not gaining. If Evolution is true, then how come the prehistoric life that is alive now did not continue to evolve?

1) Evolution does not "merge" species. Furthermore, nobody said all the different species in the world evolved to their current form at exactly the same time.

2) How does the extinction of any species somehow contradict evolution?

3) As for prehistoric species, please provide an example.

You need to take off the rose colored glasses. I looked at the website and it has more holes than Swiss cheese. Humans are humans, and apes are apes, and wolves, foxes, and coyote are dogs. Variations of groups is not proof of Evolution. Proof of Evolution is when a horse and a deer can have offspring that can reproduce.

^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^ Oh that is SO going on FSTDT! ^_^^_^^_^

Your idea of evolution is terribly distorted. If I thought you would listen, I would try to explain it to you. If I'm wrong, and you are actually interested in hearing about what evolution actually is, feel free to ask and I'll do my best.
 
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Mallon

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Maybe before we go any further, it might be worth establishing the purpose of this thread. Are you here simply to preach, MichaelTheeArchAngel, or are you also open to learning from us? If it's only the former, then I think there's little worth discussing. If the latter, then I should point out that some of us here have degrees in evolutionary biology and related fields and might be worth listening to. The version of evolution you have presented is erroneous, to say the least.
 
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GuardianShua

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One prehistoric creature alive today is the crocodile, and there are others. If there was such a thing as Evolution, then why are the prehistoric life forms today still the same. There is no real evidence of a species becoming another. Divergence by mutation disproves Evolution. Only by merging shows that species are able to cross over to form new species. Divergence limits a species by becoming to dissimilar. Each species has it's own limits for mutation. Most every mutation is bad for a species. Very seldom is a mutation favorable. And even with favorable mutations do we ever see a species leaving it's family group. No!
 
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Jester4kicks

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One prehistoric creature alive today is the crocodile, and there are others. If there was such a thing as Evolution, then why are the prehistoric life forms today still the same. There is no real evidence of a species becoming another. Divergence by mutation disproves Evolution. Only by merging shows that species are able to cross over to form new species. Divergence limits a species by becoming to dissimilar. Each species has it's own limits for mutation. Most every mutation is bad for a species. Very seldom is a mutation favorable. And even with favorable mutations do we ever see a species leaving it's family group. No!

Thank you for using the example of the crocodile! It makes this a little easier. ;)

The evolution of the crocodile (and it near-relative, the alligator) is actually fairly-well documented since the evolutionary differences can be seen in the fossil records. As I will point out in a moment, you have two distinct species (alligators and crocodiles) that clearly evolved from the same genetic ancestor. (You can read more about this HERE and in the links on that page)

As for why the crocodile has not evolved further, we don't know that it actually hasn't! Evolution is a ever-present process... but it still takes much longer than we could possibly hope to observe with our own eyes. The question is, what type of trait mutation or variance would help a crocodile live longer or reproduce more? I'll see if I can clarify this below.

Now, let's clear up a few things....

1) I'm a little concerned that we are talking about different things when you say "divergence by mutation". Genetic mutation and variance causes small trait differences within a species. Let's consider birds, and let's narrow down the list of possible variables so that we are just focusing on their beaks. Let's say a particular species of bird has a beak that is currently best-suited for puncturing the ground to dig for bugs and worms. Now, if some small mutation of variance in their "beak-gene" were to occur, their beak might turn out ever-so-slightly curved. This could make the beak a little less ideal for dirt-poking, but more effective and flesh-tearing. If circumstances were just right, the improved ability to tear flesh might make birds with this mutation more likely to survive.

Now we've got out variance, so all we add is time. The birds with straight beaks continue to thrive, migrating if neccessary to stay "on the bugs"... while the birds with slightly curved beaks figure out the additional food supply available to them by scavenging dead animals. Gradually, as they begin to rely more on scavenging, those with more curved beaks are able to more easily tear flesh and eat... to the point where the curve of the beak becomes a very distinguishing characteristic.

We now have a different species of bird! We still have the old species of "straight-beaks", and we have the new species of "curved beaks".

Do you now see how divergence is proof of evolution?


2) Most mutation is neither good, nor bad, for a species. It all depends on how pronounced the mutation or variance is, and if it makes the affected-members of the species more or less able to survive and propogate.

3) I'm not sure where you got the idea that evolution caused a species to leave its scientifically-classified family. If you think the Theory of Evolution postulates this, please provide an example.
 
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Molal

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One prehistoric creature alive today is the crocodile, and there are others. If there was such a thing as Evolution, then why are the prehistoric life forms today still the same. There is no real evidence of a species becoming another. Divergence by mutation disproves Evolution. Only by merging shows that species are able to cross over to form new species. Divergence limits a species by becoming to dissimilar. Each species has it's own limits for mutation. Most every mutation is bad for a species. Very seldom is a mutation favorable. And even with favorable mutations do we ever see a species leaving it's family group. No!
Speciation has been observed in the lab and in the field.

What do you mean that each species has it's own limits for mutation? Can you provide an example, maybe some peer reviewed, published data so that we can all go and review the data for ourselves?

Did you read the Berkeley website? A careful study of the website will allow you to understand why you are wrong about evolution.
 
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gluadys

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One prehistoric creature alive today is the crocodile, and there are others. If there was such a thing as Evolution, then why are the prehistoric life forms today still the same. There is no real evidence of a species becoming another. Divergence by mutation disproves Evolution. Only by merging shows that species are able to cross over to form new species. Divergence limits a species by becoming to dissimilar. Each species has it's own limits for mutation. Most every mutation is bad for a species. Very seldom is a mutation favorable. And even with favorable mutations do we ever see a species leaving it's family group. No!

It is not evolution that is the problem. What you are describing is not evolution. It is a mish-mash of error and imagination.

I have to agree with Mallon. If all you are interested in is continuing to post ridiculous and ill-informed assertions, there is no point in trying to discuss anything with you.

If you are open to learning about evolution and how you can correct your egregious errors about it, then we can talk.
 
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GuardianShua

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It is not evolution that is the problem. What you are describing is not evolution. It is a mish-mash of error and imagination.

I have to agree with Mallon. If all you are interested in is continuing to post ridiculous and ill-informed assertions, there is no point in trying to discuss anything with you.

If you are open to learning about evolution and how you can correct your egregious errors about it, then we can talk.
I addressed the mutation issue which would make Evolution possible. But you looked the other way, saying I'm in error. Go ahead and believe your artistic imaginings and falsified facts. Life is patterned which proves Creation, not Evolution. No groups of life escape their family bounds which would prove Evolution.
 
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Molal

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I addressed the mutation issue which would make Evolution possible. But you looked the other way, saying I'm in error. Go ahead and believe your artistic imaginings and falsified facts. Life is patterned which proves Creation, not Evolution. No groups of life escape their family bounds which would prove Evolution.
You didn't discuss anything. You completely failed to provide any evidence for anything you have stated...........speciation has been observed in the lab and in the field - this completely invalidates your assertion that "life" cannot escape it's "family bonds".
 
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gluadys

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I addressed the mutation issue which would make Evolution possible. But you looked the other way, saying I'm in error.

You are in error. Here is what you said, claim by claim:

Divergence by mutation disproves Evolution.

Meaningless statement. Mutation does not guarantee divergence.

Only by merging shows that species are able to cross over to form new species.

False premise: this is not the way new species form.

Divergence limits a species by becoming to dissimilar.

Garbled concept and false premise: does not describe evolution accurately.

Each species has it's own limits for mutation.

False assertion.

Most every mutation is bad for a species.

Factual error. Most mutations are neutral in respect to fitness.


Very seldom is a mutation favorable.

The only true statement in the paragraph.

And even with favorable mutations do we ever see a species leaving it's family group.

False concept of evolution. "Nested hierarchy" -- one of the most fundamental lines of evidence for evolution--means that species never leave their family group. An instance of a species leaving its family group would count as evidence against evolution because it would violate the nested hierarchy.

Go ahead and believe your artistic imaginings and falsified facts.

It is your notion of evolution that consists of imaginings and falsehoods. You are tilting against windmills of your own creation. Your opposition is not to real evolution but to your own false caricature of what evolution is.


No groups of life escape their family bounds which would prove Evolution.

This is the third time you have made this error. In fact, species which managed to "escape their family bounds" would falsify evolution.
 
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Jester4kicks

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I addressed the mutation issue which would make Evolution possible. But you looked the other way, saying I'm in error. Go ahead and believe your artistic imaginings and falsified facts. Life is patterned which proves Creation, not Evolution. No groups of life escape their family bounds which would prove Evolution.

I addressed most of this already, and you ignored it. Well done. :thumbsup:
 
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Mallon

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MichaelTheeArchAngel, I think would have a point if you could define what a "family group" is when you say that evolution cannot occur outside its bounds. How does one objectively define the bounds of a "family group"? What objective criteria would you use to categorize the skulls below into different families?
hominids2.jpg


To what family group does Gerobatrachus belong? Is it more a frog or more a salamander? On what objective basis can you determine this?
gerobatrachus_hottoni_300_400.jpg


Of course, as it turns out, there is no such thing as a "family group". These do not exist in reality. They are purely subjective, created in the minds of men for the sole purpose of making life easier. In fact, no Linnean grouping above the level of species has any objective meaning (and species-level classification has its problems). This is why modern biology has adandoned Linnean classification and has moved on to adopting the notion of objectively-defined clades.

(I pray that wasn't wasted breath.)
 
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