Theistic Evolution ~ is it compatible with orthodox teaching & doctrine? .

[Etsi]

Both. Check this info on Charles Darwin. Charles Darwin | Naturalist

Darwin is a joke; I have no interest in reading more about him or from him.

 

[Etsi]

Go back and re-read what I said, please! I never said I believe in Darwinism, did I?

This is why this kind of conversation will go no where because of the illogical reactionism of those on the side of the literal interpretation of Genesis.

You said you believed in evolution. So, please tell me how YOU THINK we were created.

 

[Etsi]

I don't think this would follow, since as Christians we would believe that each human soul is individual and created by God specially in a way that is not true with other animals. THe difference would be that the sluge had only a life principle or soul that was totally tied to its physical form, whereas at some point hominids were given individual immortal souls in the image of God. Which is pretty much the same scenario if one prefers a literal interpretation of Genesis.

But we are animals, as well as beings with immortal souls.

So at what point between monkey and human (if you follow evolutionary theory) were we suddenly granted souls?

 

[ArmyMatt]

it just doesn't make sense with death. for macroevolution to be true then death is at our origins as opposed to a consequence of Man's rebellion.

how can death be created by God (which would make death good, because God only creates good things), then all of a sudden God calls death an enemy of man and the last enemy Christ will defeat.

death was brought into the world by man's sin, how can you have evolution in a sinless universe?

and we are not animals. we never have been, we never will be.

 

[jckstraw72]

Has anyone ever studied or read about interpretations of Genesis 1:20,24? I'm not really hung up on the issue but it seems that "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures..." and "Let the earth bring forth living creatures..." could easily be a general description of the evolutionary process.

On Gen. 1:20

St. John Chrysostom, Commentary on Genesis 7:3
Just as He said of the earth only: “Let it bring forth,” and there appeared a great variety of flowers, herbs, and seeds, and all occurred by His word alone, so here also He said: “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens” – and instantly there were so many kinds of crawling things, such a variety of birds, that one cannot number them in words.

St. Basil, Hexaemeron 7:1
All water was in eager haste to fulfill the command of its Creator, and the great and ineffable power of God immediately produced an efficacious and active life in creatures of which one would not even be able to enumerate the species, as soon as the capacity for propagating living creatures came to the waters through His command.

St. Ambrose, Hexaemeron 5:1,2
At this command the waters immediately poured forth their offspring. The rivers were in labor. The lakes produced their quota of life. The sea itself began to bear all manner of reptiles . . . We are unable to record the multiplicity of the names of all those species which by Divine command were brought to life in a moment of time. At the same instant substantial form and the principle of life were brought into existence . . . The whale, as well as the frog, came into existence at the same time by the same creative power.


On Gen. 1:24

St. Ephraim, Commentary on Genesis 1
The earth at God’s command immediately brought forth creeping things, beasts of the field, creatures of prey, and domestic animals, as many as were necessary for the service of him who, on that very day, transgressed the commandment of the Lord.

St. Basil, Hexaemeron 9:3
The soul of brute beasts did not emerge after having been hidden in the earth, but it was called into existence at the time of the command.

St. Basil, Hexaemeron 8:1
When He said: “Let it bring forth,” (the earth) did not produce what was stored up in it, but He Who gave the command also bestowed upon it the power to bring forth. Neither did the earth, when it heard, “Let it bring forth vegetation and the fruit trees,” produce plants which it had hidden in it; nor did it send up to the surface the palm or the oak or the cypress which had been hidden somewhere down below in its womb. On the contrary, it is the Divine Word that is the origin of all things made. “Let the earth bring forth”; not, let it put forth what it has, but, let it acquire what it does not have, since God is enduing it with the power of active force.


And since Gen. 1:11 has a similar command:


St. Basil, Hexaemeron 5:5-6
"Let the earth bring forth herbs." And in the briefest moment of time the earth, beginning with germination in order that it might keep the laws of the Creator, passing through every form of increase, immediately brought the shoots to perfection. The meadows were deep with the abundant grass; the fertile plains, rippling with standing crops, presented the picture of a swelling sea with its moving heads of grain. And every herb and every kind of vegetable and whatever shrubs and legumes there were, rose from the earth at that time in all profusion.... "And the fruit tree," He said, "that bears fruit containing seed of its own kind and of its own likeness on the earth. At this saying all the dense woods appeared; all the trees shot up, those which are wont to rise to the greatest height, the firs, cedars, cypresses, and pines; likewise, all the shrubs were immediately thick with leaf and bushy; and the so-called garland plants - the rose bushes, myrtles, and laurels-all came into existence in a moment f time, although they were not previously upon the earth, each o with its own peculiar nature.



St. Ephraim, Commentary on Genesis 1
The herbs, at the time of their creation, were the productions of a single instant, but in appearance they appeared the productions of months. Likewise the trees, at the time of their creation, were the productions of a single day, but in their perfection and fruits, which weighed down the branches, they appeared the productions of years.



St. Gregory of Nyssa, On the Soul and the Resurrection
We learn from Scripture in the account of the first creation, that first the earth brought forth "the green herb," and that then from this plant seed was yielded, from which, when it was shed on the ground, the same form of the original plant again sprang up.... In the beginning, we see, it was not an ear rising from a grain, but a grain coming from an ear, and, after that, the ear grows round the grain.



St. John Chrysostom, Commentary on Genesis 6:4
(Moses) shows you that everything was accomplished before the creation of the sun, so that you might ascribe the ripening of the fruits not to it, but to the Creator of the universe.



St. Basil, Hexaemeron 5:1
The adornment of the earth is older than the sun, that those who have been misled may cease worshipping the sun as the origin of life.



St. Ambrose, Hexaemeron 3:6
Before the light of the sun shall appear, let the green herb be born, let its light be prior to that of the sun. Let the earth germinate before it receives the fostering care of the sun, lest there be an occasion for human error to grow. Let everyone be informed that the sun is not the author of vegetation.. . . How can the sun give the faculty of life growing plants, when these have already been brought forth by the life-giving creative power of God before the sun entered into such a life as this? The sun is younger than the green shoot, younger than the green plant.

And what the heck, just for fun:



St. Ambrose, Hexaemeron 1:2
He (Moses) did not look forward to a late and leisurely creation of the world out of a concourse of atoms.



St. Ambrose, Hexaemeron 1:5
And fittingly (Moses) added: "He created," lest it be thought there was a delay in creation. Furthermore, men would see also how incomparable the Creator was Who completed such a great work in me briefest moment of His creative act, so much so that the effect of His will anticipated the perception of time.



St. Athanasius the Great, Four Discourses Against the Arians 2:48, 60
As to the separate stars or the great lights, not this appeared first, and that second, but in one day and by the same command, they were all called into being. And such was the original formation of the quadrupeds, and of birds, and fishes, and cattle, and plants.... No one creature was made before another, but all things originate subsisted at once together upon one and the same command.

 

[MKJ]

So at what point between monkey and human (if you follow evolutionary theory) were we suddenly granted souls?

When Adam and Eve were conceived.

 

[Michael G]

nothing died before the fall, but obviously we know that stuff dies now. and there have been sightings of unknown animals that seem pretty dinosaur-like

As I said to FPC, cite your sources. I still haven't gotten a response back from him!

 

[Michael G]

You said you believed in evolution. So, please tell me how YOU THINK we were created.

In the beginning God created man. I do not see how this disagrees with micro evolution which states that animals evolve through series of genetic changes. I never said man evolved from sludge. At the same time, however, man has adapted to each new environment he has lived in.

 

[inconsequential]

Thanks, jckstraw72, that is definitely a lot for someone who is interested in the issue to take into account.

 

[MKJ]

it just doesn't make sense with death. for macroevolution to be true then death is at our origins as opposed to a consequence of Man's rebellion.

how can death be created by God (which would make death good, because God only creates good things), then all of a sudden God calls death an enemy of man and the last enemy Christ will defeat.

death was brought into the world by man's sin, how can you have evolution in a sinless universe?

and we are not animals. we never have been, we never will be.

I'm not sure how death and evolution are understood to be connected? One could have evolution without death, I would think? There just wouldn't be extinction.

Now, if one says that time is a result of the Fall, then there would be a problem, but I don't think that is the usual position one finds - although I think time took on a different character after the Fall. There are Fathers who tell us that creation was all in an instant - this is however a blow against the literalist interpretation of Genesis at least as much as it is a problem for theistic evolution.

To me it is pretty clear that to talk about time from the perspective of God as creator is silly - for God, the whole of the creation, including each species, happens at once. But that doesn't mean it happens all at once from a human point of view - what happens all at once from God's perspective often happens over time from ours.

 

[jckstraw72]

Thanks, jckstraw72, that is definitely a lot for someone who is interested in the issue to take into account.

dont thank me! i ripped it all from Fr. Seraphim Rose! he's already done all the research for me!

 

[jckstraw72]

As I said to FPC, cite your sources. I still haven't gotten a response back from him!

oh i dont know. im not sure if i believe these sightings or not. its just stuff ive seen on TV and the internet over the years. could be a complete hoax or it could be true, doesnt change my opinion about evolution either way.

Edit: just Google dinosaur sightings, you'll get plenty of hits

 

[Etsi]

When Adam and Eve were conceived.

So one day, a couple of ape like creatures had babies and those babies were suddenly "human"? Sorry, not buying it.

 

[Etsi]

In the beginning God created man. I do not see how this disagrees with micro evolution which states that animals evolve through series of genetic changes. I never said man evolved from sludge. At the same time, however, man has adapted to each new environment he has lived in.

So you believe in micro evolution (changes within a species...mutation and adaptation) but not macro evolution (a jump from one species to another)?

 

[ProScribe]

Darwin is a joke; I have no interest in reading more about him or from him.

You sound waaay too confident.

 

[jckstraw72]

You sound waaay too confident.

being within the confines of the Church that bears the Truth allows us to be confident about doctrine.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Darwin is a joke; I have no interest in reading more about him or from him.

I'm sorry, but Darwin wasn't a joke. He was a brilliant scientist.

 

[Michael G]

being within the confines of the Church that bears the Truth allows us to be confident about doctrine.

Ok, but let us be clear. Even if you accept Genesis as literal and reject the large scale theories of Darwin, there is nothing un-Orthodox about micro-evolution. Saying dogs evolved from wolves and then into any number of breeds is not heretical because mankind has watched the evolution ourselves during the history of our existence. Further, in the case of dogs evolving from wolves, man is the one who has caused this evolution to occur!

 

[Michael G]

So you believe in micro evolution (changes within a species...mutation and adaptation) but not macro evolution (a jump from one species to another)?

Explain this to me. God created Adam and Eve. They had one skin color. Some 8,000 years later there are people with any number of skin colors, ranging from the darkest Ethiopian to the palest Norwegian and everything in between. The same with facial features that are predominant to certain regions of the world. How did those come about without some form of micro evolution?

 

[Livindesert]

nm wrong forum....