Theistic Evolution ~ is it compatible with orthodox teaching & doctrine? .

[Ortho_Cat]

There is no evidence of micro evolution causing a jump in species. A dog is still a dog...it never becomes something else. Evolution is degenerative, always with a loss of information, never new information.

Speciation (macro-evolution) has been observed in nature and in laboratory settings.

Speciation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jckstraw72]

Then what happened to the Brontosaurus and the T-Rex?

stuff dies . . . just not until the Fall when creation rebelled against He Who is Life

 

[jckstraw72]

the level of speciation that has been observed is in no way a proof for universal common descent. All of Darwin's finches were finches.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

There is no evidence of micro evolution causing a jump in species. A dog is still a dog...it never becomes something else. Evolution is degenerative, always with a loss of information, never new information.

Here is a small sample of beneficial mutations that have been scientifically documented:

Examples of Beneficial Mutations and Natural Selection

 

[Ortho_Cat]

the level of speciation that has been observed is in no way a proof for universal common descent. All of Darwin's finches were finches.

I agree with you, this is only a small part of the evidence that suggests evolution by natural selection and common descent. I have evaluated much of the evidence for such, and have found it to overwhelmingly persuasive, as has 99% of the scientific community who specializes in this field.

 

[jckstraw72]

ah but what do those who specialize in knowing God have to say about the Scriptural account of creation?!

 

[Michael G]

Not to nit-pick, my friend, but it is my understanding that the Brontosaurus never actually existed. It would be the Brachiosaurus.

Come to Pittsburgh to the Carnegie Museum of Natural History-which has a better dino collection than the Smithsonian-and explain the differentiation between the skull of Brontosaurus (now known as Apatosaurus) and Brachiosaurus.

 

[Michael G]

the level of speciation that has been observed is in no way a proof for universal common descent. All of Darwin's finches were finches.

I do not think a single one of us here is defending Darwinism. However, I can show you proof over the past few hundred years how generic spaniels have evolved into cocker spaniels, field spaniels, springer spaniels, cumber spaniels, brittany spaniels, sussex spaniels and english toy spaniels and each of those breeds breeds true to its breed. They all started from one generic spaniel type dog and now you have a bunch of true breeding breeeds.

 

[Etsi]

So we are no different than animals then, since we all came from sludge and "evolved" to our present day form. Which means we don't really have souls in need of salvation.

Sure *eyeroll*

 

[Etsi]

I do not think a single one of us here is defending Darwinism. However, I can show you proof over the past few hundred years how generic spaniels have evolved into cocker spaniels, field spaniels, springer spaniels, cumber spaniels, brittany spaniels, sussex spaniels and english toy spaniels and each of those breeds breeds true to its breed. They all started from one generic spaniel type dog and now you have a bunch of true breeding breeeds.

They aren't different species...they all came from dogs and are still dogs. No jump in species there.

The difference between micro (changes within a species, due to breeding and genetic mutation...negative) vs macro (a monkey turning into a human).

 

[Michael G]

stuff dies . . . just not until the Fall when creation rebelled against He Who is Life

What? You said earlier that God does not create anything to die. So either species die off, or they don't. Or are you going to argue like a priest we both know does that there are dinos somewhere deep in the heart of Africa? He had the guts to tell me there have been triceratops citings in Africa.

 

[Michael G]

The assumptions made by those who stand by a literal interpretation of Genesis vs those who do not believe a literal interpretation of Genesis are beyond logic. Those of us who argue species can evolve get somehow labeled as thinking that humans evolved from sludge by the Genesis literalists and I have yet to hear any Orthodox Christian suggest anything near that.

 

[Etsi]

The assumptions made by those who stand by a literal interpretation of Genesis vs those who do not believe a literal interpretation of Genesis are beyond logic. Those of us who argue species can evolve get somehow labeled as thinking that humans evolved from sludge by the Genesis literalists and I have yet to hear any Orthodox Christian suggest anything near that.

Fine, you believe we came to be by evolution, evolution teaches that all things were once sludge, you claim we are making false accusations, so pray tell, what were we once?

 

[jckstraw72]

I do not think a single one of us here is defending Darwinism. However, I can show you proof over the past few hundred years how generic spaniels have evolved into cocker spaniels, field spaniels, springer spaniels, cumber spaniels, brittany spaniels, sussex spaniels and english toy spaniels and each of those breeds breeds true to its breed. They all started from one generic spaniel type dog and now you have a bunch of true breeding breeeds.

well i dont think anyone is denying that

 

[Michael G]

Fine, you believe we came to be by evolution, evolution teaches that all things were once sludge, you claim we are making false accusations, so pray tell, what were we once?

Go back and re-read what I said, please! I never said I believe in Darwinism, did I?

This is why this kind of conversation will go no where because of the illogical reactionism of those on the side of the literal interpretation of Genesis.

 

[Michael G]

well i dont think anyone is denying that

You might be the first person I have met who actually agrees with the ideas set forth by a certain priest that both you and I know.

 

[inconsequential]

Has anyone ever studied or read about interpretations of Genesis 1:20,24? I'm not really hung up on the issue but it seems that "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures..." and "Let the earth bring forth living creatures..." could easily be a general description of the evolutionary process.

 

[jckstraw72]

What? You said earlier that God does not create anything to die. So either species die off, or they don't. Or are you going to argue like a priest we both know does that there are dinos somewhere deep in the heart of Africa? He had the guts to tell me there have been triceratops citings in Africa.

nothing died before the fall, but obviously we know that stuff dies now. and there have been sightings of unknown animals that seem pretty dinosaur-like

 

[MKJ]

So we are no different than animals then, since we all came from sludge and "evolved" to our present day form. Which means we don't really have souls in need of salvation.

Sure *eyeroll*

I don't think this would follow, since as Christians we would believe that each human soul is individual and created by God specially in a way that is not true with other animals. THe difference would be that the sluge had only a life principle or soul that was totally tied to its physical form, whereas at some point hominids were given individual immortal souls in the image of God. Which is pretty much the same scenario if one prefers a literal interpretation of Genesis.

But we are animals, as well as beings with immortal souls.

 

[ProScribe]

Micro or Macro evolution?

Both. Check this info on Charles Darwin. http://www2.lucidcafe.com/lucidcafe/library/96feb/darwin.html