the wrath of God

[Think...]

Can you show me the Scriptures that actually teach the faith God accepts to be saved is a gift of God?

Sure, but I need to show you some things about the proof texts you've presented here.

I can show you that all God's promises are ours by faith in Lord Jesus (Romans 6:16; Galatians 3:21-22).

First, all God's promises are conditional.

Second, that's not what Romans 6:16 says. It requires obedience. Look at it again.

I can show you that those who believe receive the Holy Spirit to give them life (John 7:37-39).

That's not the only condition Jesus gives AND that's not what the verse says. It may be what you have decided it means, but that is not at all what it declares.

Look at John 14:21-23.

I can show you that those who believe demonstrate the fruits of the Spirit by the Spirit living in them (Galatians 5:22-25).

Not sure how this is relevant.
The very first event is the Calling of God. John 6:44
That is when faith is given; without which no one would seek Truth (Jesus).
No one seeks something they don't believe in.

I can show you that those who believe receive various gifts of the Spirit and the faith to carry out those gifts (Romans 12:4-8; 1 Corinthians 12:4-31).

Basic faith is the first gift. Great Faith is an additional gift from the Spirit which comes later after obedience has been established. John 14:21

But can you show me the Scriptures that teach that faith onto salvation is a gift of God?

My claim was that faith is a gift of God. I never said faith unto salvation.

Faith is given and what we do with it is up to us. That's what the parable of the 3 servants given bags of silver, and how they each invest or build it - or don't, is all about. Matthew 25:14-30

Many deny Ephesians 2:8 to be a proof text for faith being a gift, but it is confirmed by these others.

1 Corinthians 12:9
Jude 1:3
Philippians 1:29
1 Peter 1:21

 

[setst777]

The Aidios One alone is eternal. That which He begins as the Author, He finishes to His complete satisfaction.

Source, Guide, Goal of ta pante.

Can you provide the Scriptures that actually teach that all people on earth are children of God?

Can you provide the Scriptures that actually teach that the Judgment is not eternal, but is a place where God punishes the wayward children with transformation at the close?

 

[atpollard]

Any punishment by a good father, that is not with full intention of change and transformation, is mindless torture!

Our Father punishes His wayward children with transformation at the close.

I bet you cannot produce a Bible verse that says this.

 

[setst777]

Sure, but I need to show you some things about the proof texts you've presented here.

First, all God's promises are conditional.

Second, that's not what Romans 6:16 says. It requires obedience. Look at it again.

That's not the only condition Jesus gives AND that's not what the verse says. It may be what you have decided it means, but that is not at all what it declares.

Look at John 14:21-23.

Not sure how this is relevant.
The very first event is the Calling of God. John 6:44
That is when faith is given; without which no one would seek Truth (Jesus).
No one seeks something they don't believe in.

Basic faith is the first gift. Great Faith is an additional gift from the Spirit which comes later after obedience has been established. John 14:21

My claim was that faith is a gift of God. I never said faith unto salvation.

Faith is given and what we do with it is up to us. That's what the parable of the 3 servants given bags of silver, and how they each invest or build it - or don't, is all about. Matthew 25:14-30

Many deny Ephesians 2:8 to be a proof text for faith being a gift, but it is confirmed by these others.

1 Corinthians 12:9
Jude 1:3
Philippians 1:29
1 Peter 1:21

Greetings.

We both agree that:

• All God's promises are conditional.
• That a Gospel Faith is evidenced in obedience to Lord Jesus, following Him into a holy life of righteousness and love.

Would you say that the calling of God is through the Gospel with the Spirit?

Does God call sinners to repentance and faith in Lord Jesus by the Gospel message?

Luke 5:32 (WEB) I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Romans 10:17-18 (WEB) 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, didn’t they hear? Yes, most certainly

Lord Jesus taught us that "many are called, but few our chosen," and gives a parable of the wedding feast to illustrate this (Matthew 22:1-14).

Are all who are called, chosen by God for salvation? According to the Parable in "Matthew 22:1-14," why were only a few chosen?

John 6:44 (WEB) 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.

In the early part of Lord Jesus' ministry, this drawing was originally for the lost sheep of Israel.

Matthew 10:5-6 (WEB) 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 (WEB) He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

However, later on in Lord Jesus' ministry, he revealed to us, according to prophecy (Acts 13:47), that, after he was raised up, he would draw all people to himself.

John 12:32 (WEB) 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

God shows no favoritism or partiality; rather, God offers the gift of salvation to all people without discrimination:

Acts 10:34-35 (WEB) 34 Peter opened his mouth and said, “Truly I perceive that God doesn’t show favoritism; 35 but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.

How did Lord Jesus plan to draw people to himself? Was it not through the preaching of the Gospel and the convicting work of the Spirit?

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

John 16:8 (WEB) 8 When he (the Holy Spirit) has come, he will convict the world about sin, about righteousness, and about judgment...

However, as Matthew 22:1-14 ("the Wedding Feast) teaches us, many will refuse God's gracious invitation, even those who were originally called, the people of Elect Israel.

Therefore, the world-wide indiscriminate drawing of Lord Jesus is through the Gospel with the Spirit (Matthew 28:19-20; Romans 10:17-21); however, the drawing does not guarantee that everyone will believe, because, many do refuse God's gracious call.

Many will resist and refuse the drawing and illuminating of the Word and Spirit, or will fall away at a future time, just as the Scriptures teach throughout.

Acts 7:51-52 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit!

Matthew 22:3 (WEB) 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they refused to come.

John 3:18 (WEB) 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (WEB) 10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Romans 10:21 (WEB) 21 21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contrary (obstinate) people.” [Isaiah 65:2]

According to "John 3:16-18," who are the ones God elects to give to the Son, and who are the ones that God will not give to the Son?

John 3:16-18 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) ... it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Can you provide the Scriptures that actually teach that all people on earth are children of God?

Can you provide the Scriptures that actually teach that the Judgment is not eternal, but is a place where God punishes the wayward children with transformation at the close?

Ezekiel 18:4 “ all souls are mine Ps 24:1 , 1Cor 10:26 “ the Lord owns the earth wall it contains and all who live in it” As for the second question it comes down to your definition of aionios I believe it should be translated of the age and then it is not eternal. I will ask the question what scripture do you see that says the judgement is heaven or hell or do you infer this because you think aionios is eternal?

 

[setst777]

Ezekiel 18:4 “ all souls are mine Ps 24:1 , 1Cor 10:26 “ the Lord owns the earth wall it contains and all who live in it” As for the second question it comes down to your definition of aionios I believe it should be translated of the age and then it is not eternal. I will ask the question what scripture do you see that says the judgement is heaven or hell or do you infer this because you think aionios is eternal?

Jehovah, being creator of all things, does own the earth and all that it contains, and people living in it. Anything beyond what is stated in Ezekiel 18:4 is adding your own opinions to the text.

The Scriptures actually teach that the children of God are those who believe in Lord Jesus demonstrated by living by the Spirit.

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (WEB) While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become children of light.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we [believers] live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation - but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you (the brothers and sisters) live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Aionios means eternal unless the context itself restricts the meaning to a narrowed parameter. For instance, is aionios restricted by the context regarding the judgment of "everlasting condemnation" or "everlasting punishment" to a place where God punishes the wayward children with transformation at the close?

Can you provide the Scriptures that actually teach that all people on earth are children of God?

Can you provide the Scriptures that actually teach that the Judgment is not eternal, but is a place where God punishes the wayward children with transformation at the close?

If you can't answer these questions by clear explanations in Scripture, then your faith is in vain - the teachings of men.

 

[Der Alte]

Ezekiel 18:4 “ all souls are mine Ps 24:1 , 1Cor 10:26 “ the Lord owns the earth wall it contains and all who live in it” As for the second question it comes down to your definition of aionios I believe it should be translated of the age and then it is not eternal. I will ask the question what scripture do you see that says the judgement is heaven or hell or do you infer this because you think aionios is eternal?

A couple of things wrong with this post. First "aionios" is a an adjective, in no way shape or form can it reasonably be translated "age" which, in case you don't know, is a noun. I have repeatedly shown that "aionios" does in fact mean eternal.

John 3:15-16​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.​

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

In these three vss. Jesus defines/describes "aionios" as eternal by juxtaposing it with "shall not perish", three times.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

No one comes to this belief by studying Scripture.

This is taught only by heretics.

Psalm 30:5 Gods anger last but a moment but his his favor a lifetime

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Jehovah, being creator of all things, does own the earth and all that it contains, and people living in it. Anything beyond what is stated in Ezekiel 18:4 is adding your own opinions to the text.

The Scriptures actually teach that the children of God are those who believe in Lord Jesus demonstrated by living by the Spirit.

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (WEB) While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become children of light.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we [believers] live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation - but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you (the brothers and sisters) live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Aionios means eternal unless the context itself restricts the meaning to a narrowed parameter. For instance, is aionios restricted by the context regarding the judgment of "everlasting condemnation" or "everlasting punishment" to a place where God punishes the wayward children with transformation at the close?

Can you provide the Scriptures that actually teach that all people on earth are children of God?

Can you provide the Scriptures that actually teach that the Judgment is not eternal, but is a place where God punishes the wayward children with transformation at the close?

If you can't answer these questions by clear explanations in Scripture, then your faith is in vain - the teachings of men.

I will give you scripture but you must know that I do not believe that aionios should be translated eternal but of the age , you believe it’s eternal so no matter what I show you you most likely will not believe my understanding is correct. John 6:37-30 Jesus will lose none the Father has given him John 3:35 the Father has placed all things in Jesus hands Matt 11:27 all things handed to Jesus by God John 13:3 the Father has given Jesus all things John 6:37 all that the Father gives to me will come to me .

 

[setst777]

Psalm 30:5 Gods anger last but a moment but his his favor a lifetime

Psalms 30 is a prayer of David for God's favor on him in the face of his enemies. God's gracious favor is on those who believe on Him and follow His commands. If we do this, then when we do sin in weakness, and when we repent, God's anger lasts but a moment, but his favor a lifetime.

David was a man after God's own heart, which is why David found favor with God.

1 Samuel 13:14 (WEB) But now your (Saul's) kingdom will not continue. Yahweh has sought for himself a man after his own heart, and Yahweh has appointed him (David) to be prince over his people, because you (Saul) have not kept that which Yahweh commanded you.”

We all know how God feels about wickedness in the Old Testament. God is righteous to punish the wicked, but his favor is on those who trust in him in humility.

 

[setst777]

I will give you scripture but you must know that I do not believe that aionios should be translated eternal but of the age , you believe it’s eternal so no matter what I show you you most likely will not believe my understanding is correct. John 6:37-30 Jesus will lose none the Father has given him John 3:35 the Father has placed all things in Jesus hands Matt 11:27 all things handed to Jesus by God John 13:3 the Father has given Jesus all things John 6:37 all that the Father gives to me will come to me .

Regarding the Judgment at the end, there are two choices: Either eternal life or eternal condemnation. If life is eternal, then so is condemnation eternal within the context. If you believe that eternal life and eternal condemnation are not eternal, then you must show this to be the case.

Regarding eternal punishment, you have to show, by Scripture, that the last judgment is not final, that those who are condemned to eternal punishment will get another chance after being punished. You must show the Scriptures that teach this.

Some examples where Scripture teaches an eternal punishment are as follows:

Daniel 12:1-2 (WEB) At that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people; and there will be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time. At that time your people will be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46 (WEB) 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (WEB) 6 Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted with us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 punishing those who don’t know God, and to those who don’t obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus, 9 who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord

Jude 1:7 (WEB) 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, having in the same way as these given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are shown as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Jude 1:12-13 (WEB) 12 These are hidden rocky reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you, shepherds who without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever.

Revelation 14:9-11 (WEB) 9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10 (WEB) 10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15 (WEB) 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

The eternality of punishment is taught by Lord Jesus in various ways. Some of these are as follows:

Matthew 5:22-26 (WEB)
25 Agree with your adversary quickly while you are with him on the way; lest perhaps the prosecutor deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison. 26 Most certainly I tell you, you shall by no means get out of there until you have paid the last penny.

Lord Jesus appears to be describing a place that the unrighteous will be cast into, and is eternal, because no one who is in that prison can pay anything. So this place is forever.

Luke 12:57-59 (WEB)
57 Why don’t you judge for yourselves what is right? 58 For when you are going with your adversary before the magistrate, try diligently on the way to be released from him, lest perhaps he drag you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will by no means get out of there, until you have paid the very last penny.

Again, Lord Jesus appears to be describing a place that the unrighteous will be cast into, and is eternal, because no one who is in that prison can pay anything.

The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is another example of the finality and eternality of eternal punishment. See: Luke 16:19-31

As well, eternal punishment does not mean eternal non-existence, because the idea Lord Jesus conveys in His teachings, is that we should fear going into that place of eternal fire. In addition, those who are eternally punished, which is also called eternal death, is separation from the presence of God forever as this Passage indicates....

Revelation 22:12-17 (WEB) 12 “Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

 

[setst777]

I will give you scripture but you must know that I do not believe that aionios should be translated eternal but of the age , you believe it’s eternal so no matter what I show you you most likely will not believe my understanding is correct. John 6:37-30 Jesus will lose none the Father has given him John 3:35 the Father has placed all things in Jesus hands Matt 11:27 all things handed to Jesus by God John 13:3 the Father has given Jesus all things John 6:37 all that the Father gives to me will come to me .

Regarding John 6:37-38, let us review it's context.

John 6:37-38 (WEB) 37 All those whom the Father gives me will come to me. He who comes to me I will in no way throw out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

Who are the ones God gives to the Son? What do the Scriptures teach?

John 3:16-18 (WEB)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

John 3:39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. 40 For [because] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

God's desire is that all would be saved; however, God will only give to the Son those who believe in the Son. And the ones who believe in the Son will come to the Son.

• The ransom was paid for all, not some (1 Timothy 2:6),
• God desires all to be saved, not some (1 Timothy 2:3-4),
• God’s intention is to have mercy on all, not some (Romans 11:32).
• God’s will is to save those who believe in His Son (John 3:16; John 6:40)
• We appropriate that gracious gift of salvation to ourselves by faith (John 3:16)
• Many will resist the Spirit and Word and be lost (Matthew 22:8-9; Acts 7:51-52)

Of those who do believe, many will fall away (Matthew 24:10; 1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:12)

The Promise is for those who believe and remain faithful to the end.

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB) Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his Rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited the promises.

 

[Think...]

Greetings.

We both agree that:

• All God's promises are conditional.
• That a Gospel Faith is evidenced in obedience to Lord Jesus, following Him into a holy life of righteousness and love.

Would you say that the calling of God is through the Gospel with the Spirit?

Does God call sinners to repentance and faith in Lord Jesus by the Gospel message?

Luke 5:32 (WEB) I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Romans 10:17-18 (WEB) 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, didn’t they hear? Yes, most certainly

Lord Jesus taught us that "many are called, but few our chosen," and gives a parable of the wedding feast to illustrate this (Matthew 22:1-14).

Are all who are called, chosen by God for salvation? According to the Parable in "Matthew 22:1-14," why were only a few chosen?

John 6:44 (WEB) 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.

In the early part of Lord Jesus' ministry, this drawing was originally for the lost sheep of Israel.

Matthew 10:5-6 (WEB) 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 (WEB) He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

However, later on in Lord Jesus' ministry, he revealed to us, according to prophecy (Acts 13:47), that, after he was raised up, he would draw all people to himself.

John 12:32 (WEB) 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

God shows no favoritism or partiality; rather, God offers the gift of salvation to all people without discrimination:

Acts 10:34-35 (WEB) 34 Peter opened his mouth and said, “Truly I perceive that God doesn’t show favoritism; 35 but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.

How did Lord Jesus plan to draw people to himself? Was it not through the preaching of the Gospel and the convicting work of the Spirit?

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

John 16:8 (WEB) 8 When he (the Holy Spirit) has come, he will convict the world about sin, about righteousness, and about judgment...

However, as Matthew 22:1-14 ("the Wedding Feast) teaches us, many will refuse God's gracious invitation, even those who were originally called, the people of Elect Israel.

Therefore, the world-wide indiscriminate drawing of Lord Jesus is through the Gospel with the Spirit (Matthew 28:19-20; Romans 10:17-21); however, the drawing does not guarantee that everyone will believe, because, many do refuse God's gracious call.

Many will resist and refuse the drawing and illuminating of the Word and Spirit, or will fall away at a future time, just as the Scriptures teach throughout.

Acts 7:51-52 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit!

Matthew 22:3 (WEB) 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they refused to come.

John 3:18 (WEB) 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (WEB) 10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Romans 10:21 (WEB) 21 21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contrary (obstinate) people.” [Isaiah 65:2]

According to "John 3:16-18," who are the ones God elects to give to the Son, and who are the ones that God will not give to the Son?

John 3:16-18 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) ... it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

That's a lot to respond to.

I'm not sure, off top of my head, how exactly God calls. Not sure the Bible is clear on that, but I'll look into it.

I have a strong faith in the Bible, and believe it holds vast Truth, but it does take discernment and some research to be certain of the finer points. One being God's favoritism, and another being the use of the word 'all' in Scripture.

To the second, there are many examples in the Bible of all referring more to those within a certain group, rather than every single last one. I can give examples in a bit.

As far as God's favoritism, He does say He has no partiality, but a very good case can be made that, again, He is speaking about those within a certain group. We have multiple examples of Jesus showing very obvious preference of one people over another. Examples later.

On a side note: Are you using the name set as your screen name?

 

[Think...]

Psalm 30:5 Gods anger last but a moment but his his favor a lifetime

Yeah, I can give verses to show that God is angry at sinners every day and so on and so forth. Would you like to support the other part of the post you are defending, or just call it good?

For his anger lasts only a brief moment, and his good favor restores one's life.

The Lord's punishment is Not an end in itself, It leads to change and adjustment at the conclusion.

The person you are defending is making a case against the Wrath of God.

Would you like to jump on their wagon and post verses that support the above statement of theirs?

 

[setst777]

That's a lot to respond to.

I'm not sure, off top of my head, how exactly God calls. Not sure the Bible is clear on that, but I'll look into it.

I have a strong faith in the Bible, and believe it holds vast Truth, but it does take discernment and some research to be certain of the finer points. One being God's favoritism, and another being the use of the word 'all' in Scripture.

To the second, there are many examples in the Bible of all referring more to those within a certain group, rather than every single last one. I can give examples in a bit.

As far as God's favoritism, He does say He has no partiality, but a very good case can be made that, again, He is speaking about those within a certain group. We have multiple examples of Jesus showing very obvious preference of one people over another. Examples later.

On a side note: Are you using the name set as your screen name?

Isn't the Bible clear on how he calls us? Is Acts 1:7-8; Matthew 28:19-20; John 16:7-8; Luke 24:46-47clear? Are Romans 10:17-21 and 1 Corinthians 1:21 clear or not?

Acts 13:47 (WEB)
47 For so has the Lord commanded us, saying, ‘I have set you as a light for the Gentiles,
that you should bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.’” [Isaiah 49:6]

God gives talents, and uses all people, fish, animals, and birds for various purposes and tasks, but the Scriptures (OT and NT) never teach us that God gives faith to anyone so we can be saved.

The call, urging, and command of God to all people is to repent and believe (Ezekiel 18:23; Ezekiel 18:30-32; Isaiah 1:16-22; Acts 17:30).

Isaiah 45:22 (WEB) Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 49:6 (WEB) Indeed, he says, “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel. I will also give you as a light to the nations, that you may be my salvation to the end of the earth.”

God shows no favoritism or partiality in His gracious offer of salvation, but many refuse his grace (2 Thessalonians 2:10; Hebrews 12:25; Matthew 22:3; John 3:18; Romans 10:21; John 5:40).

God calls and draws all people without favoritism (Isaiah 45:21-22; Acts 10:34-35; Acts 13:47; Matthew 28:19-20; John 12:32; John 12:47; 2 Corinthians 5:19; Titus 2:11), by the Word and Spirit, but many refuse the drawing of the word (Romans 10:17-21) and the Spirit (Acts 7:51).

God genuinely loves all people, and so His gracious intention is to have grace and mercy on all sinners.

Romans 11:32 (WEB) 32 For God has bound all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.

Salvation to all is good and acceptable to God, for God desires all to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (WEB) 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.

Titus 2:11 (WEB) 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men

God paid the ransom for all so that all who believe may be saved through the blood of Christ, but not all are ransomed because they refuse the gracious Gospel invitation, or will fall away from the faith.

1 Timothy 2:6 (WEB) 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony in its own times

1 John 2:2 (WEB) 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

John 1:29 (WEB) 29 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”

We appropriate that ransom for our salvation by faith in Lord Jesus.

John 3:16-18 (WEB) 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

So, through the preaching of the Gospel, God’s good pleasure is to save all who believe (John 3:16).

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

God has provided the means for that salvation through the Gospel (John 3:16), and so, rather than God forming many to be predestined to damnation, God invites, calls, compels, draws, pleads with, reasons with, and even commands all people to repent so they may be saved, without partiality, for God's gracious intention is to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32)..

Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked. But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent.

But many refuse the call of God through the Gospel.

Matthew 22:3 (WEB) He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

Matthew 22:9-10 (WEB) 9 Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the wedding feast.’

Ezekiel 18:23 (WEB) 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 (WEB) 11 Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die oh house of Israel?”’

Matthew 23:37 (WEB) “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I would have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you refused!

John 12:32 (WEB) 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

John 4:42 (WEB) 42 They said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of your speaking; for we have heard for ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”

John 3:14-18 (WEB) 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

John 12:47 (WEB) 47 If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn’t believe, I do not judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

 

[setst777]

On a side note: Are you using the name set as your screen name?

My screen name is: setst777. You can refer to me as "set" in any messages. Blessings

 

[YahuahSaves]

Many deny Ephesians 2:8 to be a proof text for faith being a gift, but it is confirmed by these others.

You've misinterpreted the scripture here.
The gift is grace (Gods mercy and kindness), through our faith (blind trust) in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Take a more modern interpretation as an example:

Ephesians 2:8
NLT
8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Regarding John 6:37-38, let us review it's context.

John 6:37-38 (WEB) 37 All those whom the Father gives me will come to me. He who comes to me I will in no way throw out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

Who are the ones God gives to the Son? What do the Scriptures teach?

John 3:16-18 (WEB)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

John 3:39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. 40 For [because] this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

God's desire is that all would be saved; however, God will only give to the Son those who believe in the Son. And the ones who believe in the Son will come to the Son.

• The ransom was paid for all, not some (1 Timothy 2:6),
• God desires all to be saved, not some (1 Timothy 2:3-4),
• God’s intention is to have mercy on all, not some (Romans 11:32).
• God’s will is to save those who believe in His Son (John 3:16; John 6:40)
• We appropriate that gracious gift of salvation to ourselves by faith (John 3:16)
• Many will resist the Spirit and Word and be lost (Matthew 22:8-9; Acts 7:51-52)

Of those who do believe, many will fall away (Matthew 24:10; 1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:12)

The Promise is for those who believe and remain faithful to the end.

Hebrews 4:1 (WEB) Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his Rest.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited the promises.

How do you dismiss the verses that clearly do not support your argument? The verses that say Yahweh has given all things , not some , to Jesus and that he will lose none. It’s just like when scripture says directly that it “ It’s Gods will that none should parish “ that goes against your narrative, because a eternal hell is a sacred cow that one must keep at all costs, that is why without any scripture you must have two wills of God. I choose to put the emphasis on the verses that say Jesus is the savior of the world and there are more than just one. So I will ask you show me the verses that say God has two wills one he can do and one he can’t.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Our Father punishes His wayward children with transformation at the close.

Are you talking about physical death here?
God calls us to salvation (we make a choice) and then to sanctification (he begins a work in us that he finishes providing we do not quench or grieve the Holy spirit by disobedience or sin)
Judgement day is separate. We are called to live according to his plan and purposes in the here and now (while alive).

More proof that the wicked who are punished in the Wrath of God ... ARE NOT GOD'S CHILDREN.

Have you never experienced Gods anger before? What about simply conviction from the Holy Spirit? His wrath is shown to us because he is sovereign. He has a right to correct us, but if we turn from sin and turn back to God, he is merciful to forgive us.

 

[setst777]

You've misinterpreted the scripture here.
The gift is grace (Gods mercy and kindness), through our faith (blind trust) in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Take a more modern interpretation as an example:

Ephesians 2:8​

NLT​

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.​

Nowhere in the Scriptures is taught that God gives faith to be saved as a gift to anyone.

You want Ephesians 2:8-9 to say what you think it means, but the Greek grammar does not support your view.

The subjective pronoun "this" (touto) and the noun "gift" are both neuter and singular, and so, both can only refer back to a neuter and singular subject or verbal concept within the sentence structure.

Neither "grace" nor "faith" are subjects of the sentence, and they do not match the gender and number of the subjective pronoun "this."

"Grace" is masculine" and Faith" is feminine, and "Gift" is neuter, so "Gift" cannot refer back to "Grace" or "Faith.

The only subject in Ephesians 2:8-9 is the verbal concept: "you have been saved" or "by grace you have been saved." These are verbal concepts because both are verbal statements of fact taken from an earlier Passage in Ephesians 2 and brought forward as a complete thought and subject of discussion.

Other Passages in the NT also use verbal concepts (which are always neuter and singular) in place of a subject noun by which the singular neuter pronoun "this" or "that" refers back to...

Some Scripture examples that parallel Ephesians 2:8-9 are as follows:

Matthew 19:25-26
When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” (verbal concept); But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this (touto) is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

“This” can only refer back to the subject verbal concept (idea) “Who then can be saved?” The verbal concept is understood, in speech, as the noun “salvation” that “this” is referring to, but remains neuter because the neuter pronoun “this” is referring back to a verbal concept.

A verbal concept is not a "you" or "they" or "him" or "her." A verbal concept is rather a "this" or "that." (neuter singular pronoun).

The rest of the grammar surrounding the verbal concept describes the circumstances surrounding the subject verbal concept, but are not the subject, just as “grace” and “faith” modify or explain “you are saved” but are not themselves the subject.

Ephesians 6:1
Children, “obey” your parents in the Lord, for this (touto) is right

Colossians 3:20 Children, “obey” your parents in all things, for this (touto) is well pleasing to the Lord.

In both Ephesians 6:1 and Colossians 3:20, “this” can only refer to the subject verbal concept (idea) “obey, because "obey" is the only subject in the sentence. The verbal concept is understood, in speech, as referring to the noun “obedience” that “this” is referring back to. Even so, being a subject verbal concept, “obey” is neuter and singular, and so agrees with the neuter pronoun, this.”

The nouns “Children” and “Parents” modify or explain more about “obey,” just as “grace” and “faith” modify “you are saved” but are not themselves the subject. To “obey” (obedience) is the subject, but is a verbal concept that replaces the subject noun: "obedience" that the subject pronoun "this" refers back to.

1 Timothy 5:4 first "let them learn" to “show piety” at home and to repay their parents; for this (touto) is good and acceptable before God.

“This” refers back to the subject verbal concept “show piety.” The verbal concept "let them learn” is also possible.

The pronoun "this" refers to "show piety" as a noun "piety" [this piety], but remains neuter because the neuter pronoun “this” is referring back to a verbal concept.

A verbal concept, in Koine Greek, the verb "saved" is masculine and is not a complete thought by itself; rather, it is a fragment of a thought, and so, cannot act as a verbal concept, and so, cannot replace a noun as a subject. Only a verbal concept can replace a noun. A verbal concept is always neuter and singular - having no gender or person, and is a complete thought by itself that the writer is explaining more about.

• The verbal concept "you have been saved" or "by grace you have been saved" is the only subject in Ephesians 2:8-9. And it is neuter and singular by default, because the concept is a statement, and so is not a person, place, or thing.
• "Grace" and "Faith" are modifiers that point to the subject; they are not part of the subject.
• "Grace" can be part of the verbal concept, because "by grace you are saved" is a fact expressed earlier in Ephesians 2 that is brought forward to discuss further.
• The neuter pronoun "that" or "it is," depending on the Bible you are using, must refer back to the closest subject, and the subject must be neuter.
• The only subject in Ephesians 2:8-9 is the verbal concept "you have been saved" or "by grace you have been saved"
• "Faith" is feminine, and "Gift" is neuter, so "Gift" cannot refer back to "Faith."
• There is no legitimate grammar that can be used to match "Gift" neuter, with "Faith" feminine. That is against grammar.
• The neuter pronoun cannot refer back to include all of what was said previously if a verbal concept exists. The verbal concept "you have been saved" is the subject, and is neuter, of which "grace" and "faith" point to and modify.
• As noted, “you have been saved,” is the subject, but the concept “by grace you have been saved” is also a possibility, since that is the concept taken from the previous verse, and so is quoted again and expounded on.

So, using Koine Greek grammar, Ephesians 2:8-9 would be understood to read as follows:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (WEB)
8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and this (touto) salvation (referring back to the subject neuter verbal concept: you have been saved) [is] not of yourselves; it is the gift {{neuter - the gift of salvation - which is by grace through faith}} of God, 9 not of works (faith is the opposite of works), that no one would boast.

If you disagree, the burden is on you to show other clear Passages that actually state or teach that God gives you faith by which you are saved, because the grammar in Ephesians 2:8-9 does not support your position.

I can show you many Scriptures that actually teach that we receive God's gracious gift of justification and salvation by faith - the NT is filled with such Passages, and John 3:14-18 is the most popular.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we gain access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB) 16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habakkuk 2:4]

Acts 16:30-31 (WEB) “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Galatians 3:22 (WEB) 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Romans 4:16 (WEB) 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace

If one's faith is genuine, then he has renounced the old life, and has now committed to a sanctified life of following Lord Jesus in righteousness and love.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.