The worst thing about Calvinism

[jimmyjimmy]

So does Jesus have hinges like on a door? He calls himself the door. Is Jesus square in appearance and made out of certain materials? I think analogies do illustrate truth, but I do not think they were meant to be taken to the farthest extreme. Jesus is technically not a shepherd living here upon this Earth on a farm somewhere who takes care of actual real physical sheep. He is a sheep in the spiritual sense.

Besides, you are by-product of your father and mother who did choose of their own free will choice to have you. So without free will, you would not exist.

Does Man Have Free Will?

Free will is defined in a few different ways. Here is one of it's definitions.

Free will (Noun) - The ability to act at one's own discretion.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...sh/free%2Bwill

In fact, the origin of the word "will" is especially important to look at, too. It says this..

Will (Verb) - To wish, desire, want, to will, or to choose.

Online Etymology Dictionary

Now, how can you have the desire for anything or to choose differently if you did not have the free choice (i.e. free will) to choose or to not to choose in the first place?

Anyways, here is a list of the different types of Free Will that I hope you shall consider.

The Three different types of Free Will:

#1. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Type Free Will.
#2. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will.
#3. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will.​

And the hypothetical Free Will that does not exist for any being within our universe.
Which is...

#1. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will.​

A. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Free Will:
All non-believers or people who have not genuinely accepted Christ as their Savior are slaves to sin in some way. Now, this does not mean that unbelievers are not capable of making limited free will choices that are correct or good for their own well being (like choosing not to murder, steal, fornicate, or do drugs). However, on the other hand they are limited in their free will in the sense that they are slaves to sin and will have some type of sin within their life that separates them from God. They have free will to accept Jesus as their Savior. This is why there will be a Judgment.

B. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will:
All true believers in Christ or those who genuinely accept Jesus as their Savior are set free from being a slave to sin. This gives the believer a higher level of free will than that of a non-believer who is incapable of not sinning habitually. Now, does this mean that the believer does not have the free will to no longer sin anymore? No, most certainly not. It just means that they are no longer bound to sin anymore and are given a higher status of limited free will (or limited choices). They are also not forced against their free will to have a continued salvation or to still be a believer in Christ if they decide to change their minds, too. They still must choose each day to serve the Lord or to not serve the Lord. For a believer can forfeit his or her salvation if they do not live for Christ and become a new creature; Thus, showing that they were born again.

C. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will:
God is limited to doing only that which is good and right. For God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. God is love and in Him is no evil. He is the very embodiment of all that is Holy, just, perfect, and good in this life. For there is none good but God. In other words, God is incapable of doing any type of evil or sin. He is perfect and good in every way. His limitation is that He can only do that which is good and right. Which of course is a good limitation to have. So praise be to our God for being all that is loving and good.

D. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will:
No being in the universe has absolute or ultimate free will. For if absolute free will existed, then there would have to be a being who could do whatever they wanted whether good or evil with no restrictions or consequences attached whatsoever. In other words, this concept of Free Will is purely imaginary because no being possesses this type of Free Will type characteristics.

In other words, It is not God's will or desire that you sin and reject Him. Yes, you are under His creation, sovereign rule, and divine plan (because the Lord can work both good and evil for His purposes), but God does not approve of someone doing evil as if it was His approved of will or desire for your life. God is good. Not evil.

For the moment you take away free will (not ultimate free will) is the moment you make God responsible for directly creating evil and sin. However, there is no darkness in God at all. God created free willed beings that made the decision to be evil and to sin. God did not force Adam and Eve to rebel. They had a choice to either choose life or to choose death. They chose death. Not because God wanted them to. It was because they wanted to choose death.



Yet, you ignore the example in Jeremiah about how God forms the clay according to what they do (See Jeremiah 18).

Your rebuttals are getting weaker an weaker. Not that they were very strong to begin with, but now, you are just reaching. There is no substance to your arguments.

 

[Hammster]

So you believe in forced regeneration. Not forced salvation. LOL.

Is that what Calvinists believe.

The Bible speaks of it just as regeneration. And just as the wind blows where it wishes...

 

[Hammster]

That sounds like co-op salvation to me.

Are you sure you are a Calvinist?

Not at all. Regeneration is of God. But just as life follows birth, faith follows regeneration. It's the natural response.

 

[Hammster]

No, those who were not part of Israel did not necessarily die in their sins...

What happened to them?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

By relating Calvinism to our spiritual / physical birth. Somebody can do the same by saying that Mary is our spiritual mother and pointing to the fact that all people have a mother.

No where does scripture tell us that Mary is our spiritual mother; however, it does tell us that we are born again by the Spirit. We have "new birth".

 

[ClementofA]

The Bible speaks of it just as regeneration. And just as the wind blows where it wishes...

You already said regeneration is irresistible. So it is forced regeneration. Is that too hard to admit?

Irresistible is even stronger than mere force. It is an irresistible force.

How is it that regeneration is irresistibly forced, but salvation is not?

Of course "irresistible" and "force" are not how the "Bible speaks of it". Paul says the love of Christ "constraineth" him, which is another way of saying "forces" him.

 

[ClementofA]

Not at all. Regeneration is of God. But just as life follows birth, faith follows regeneration. It's the natural response.

Where does salvation fit into that? How does your comment avoid co-op salvation by the repenting of your own freewill that you spoke of? BTW i'm quite sure that life precedes birth, which is why abortion is murder.

If libertarian free will is not true, then what else is there but determinism?

 

[RisenInJesus]

What happened to them?

I believe they died and either went to Abraham's bosom or Hades to await the final judgement (Luke 16:22-23) depending upon their attitude and response of faith or rejection toward the light God revealed to each of them through their own conscience or other sources.

There are examples recorded in the scriptures of Gentiles who were not a part of Israel, nor under the law, yet they responded to God in faith. Abraham was a prime example. Jonah was sent to preach repentance to the pagan Assyrian city of Nineveh (Jonah 1:1-2) and they repented (Jonah 3:5-10), but their repentance did not involve becoming a part of Israel. The book of Obadiah was a rebuke against the pagan Edomites. The book of Nahum was another rebuke to Nineveh. Hiram, the king of Tyre (2 Chron. 2:12), the queen of Sheba (1 Kings 10:9), and king Darius of the Medes (Dan. 6:26) were all Gentiles that praised God but did not follow Mosaic Law. Nebuchadnezzar was punished by God, repented, and was restored to his senses and praised God, but he was not under the Mosaic Law (Dan. 4:28-37).

"God not only speaks to each person’s five senses through His creation, but continually speaks to each person inwardly through his or her conscience, calling each to turn from sin and turn to righteousness. That inward voice is programmed within every person who has ever lived. In giving every person a conscience, was God’s intention to motivate them to do what is pleasing in His sight during their lives so He could eventually cast them into hell? Obviously not. Rather, it was to motivate them to repentance, faith, and salvation.

Is it possible that at least some of the millions of Gentiles who lived before Christ, who never once heard a verse from the Old Testament—many having lived before a single word of the Old Testament was penned, and many having lived beyond the range of its knowledge, scattered around the globe—might have rightly responded to creation and conscience, which were both designed by God to draw all people to Himself? And if they believed in God and repented, would God have forgiven them? And might some of them have continued in faith, following the voice of their conscience, and died in a state of righteousness? And if so, would God have accepted them and granted them eternal life on the basis of the fact that Jesus died for their sins, making their forgiveness by a righteous God possible? I think the answer to all of those questions is yes."
Salvation B.C. and A.D. - David Servant

 

[RisenInJesus]

What happened to them?

What do you think happened to them?

 

[Si_monfaith]

There is a huge difference between what I believe God's Word says about God and His plan of salvation vs. what Calvinist's say about God and His plan of salvation. Please do not equate Calvinistic thinking with what I believe. God chastening His sons is not proof that God force regenerates people to be saved from a Totally Depraved state.

I discuss about truth not about what someone called Calvin said.

Please do link my points to Calvinism.

No human be it a non Christian or a Christian, is free. Man is either ruled by sin or by His grace that was given through His Son Jesus.

One who says, "I received salvation by my faith or else I would not have been saved", do not understand that faith is a free gift nor does he understand the power of the revelation of His love.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Which part? Are you saying that a believer can live in serious sin (or be unprofitable for God in this life) and still be saved? Or do you believe that one needs to have works and holiness to be defined as a true believer? By your words here, I am getting the impression that holiness is merely optional and it does not relate to salvation.



Lying would fall under one being honest or not. Not revealing truth does not mean one is lying or being dishonest. Jesus said to the Pharisees that they are gods as a way of deflecting them away from the fact that He was saying that He was God. For Jesus had a mission to protect.

Joshua and his followers killed many. Would they all be in hell?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Does Man Have Free Will?

Free will is defined in a few different ways. Here is one of it's definitions.

Free will (Noun) - The ability to act at one's own discretion.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...sh/free%2Bwill

In fact, the origin of the word "will" is especially important to look at, too. It says this..

Will (Verb) - To wish, desire, want, to will, or to choose.

Online Etymology Dictionary

Now, how can you have the desire for anything or to choose differently if you did not have the free choice (i.e. free will) to choose or to not to choose in the first place?

Anyways, here is a list of the different types of Free Will that I hope you shall consider.

The Three different types of Free Will:

#1. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Type Free Will.
#2. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will.
#3. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will.​

And the hypothetical Free Will that does not exist for any being within our universe.
Which is...

#1. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will.​

A. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Free Will:
All non-believers or people who have not genuinely accepted Christ as their Savior are slaves to sin in some way. Now, this does not mean that unbelievers are not capable of making limited free will choices that are correct or good for their own well being (like choosing not to murder, steal, fornicate, or do drugs). However, on the other hand they are limited in their free will in the sense that they are slaves to sin and will have some type of sin within their life that separates them from God. They have free will to accept Jesus as their Savior. This is why there will be a Judgment.

B. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will:
All true believers in Christ or those who genuinely accept Jesus as their Savior are set free from being a slave to sin. This gives the believer a higher level of free will than that of a non-believer who is incapable of not sinning habitually. Now, does this mean that the believer does not have the free will to no longer sin anymore? No, most certainly not. It just means that they are no longer bound to sin anymore and are given a higher status of limited free will (or limited choices). They are also not forced against their free will to have a continued salvation or to still be a believer in Christ if they decide to change their minds, too. They still must choose each day to serve the Lord or to not serve the Lord. For a believer can forfeit his or her salvation if they do not live for Christ and become a new creature; Thus, showing that they were born again.

C. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will:
God is limited to doing only that which is good and right. For God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. God is love and in Him is no evil. He is the very embodiment of all that is Holy, just, perfect, and good in this life. For there is none good but God. In other words, God is incapable of doing any type of evil or sin. He is perfect and good in every way. His limitation is that He can only do that which is good and right. Which of course is a good limitation to have. So praise be to our God for being all that is loving and good.

D. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will:
No being in the universe has absolute or ultimate free will. For if absolute free will existed, then there would have to be a being who could do whatever they wanted whether good or evil with no restrictions or consequences attached whatsoever. In other words, this concept of Free Will is purely imaginary because no being possesses this type of Free Will type characteristics.

In other words, It is not God's will or desire that you sin and reject Him. Yes, you are under His creation, sovereign rule, and divine plan (because the Lord can work both good and evil for His purposes), but God does not approve of someone doing evil as if it was His approved of will or desire for your life. God is good. Not evil.

For the moment you take away free will (not ultimate free will) is the moment you make God responsible for directly creating evil and sin. However, there is no darkness in God at all. God created free willed beings that made the decision to be evil and to sin. God did not force Adam and Eve to rebel. They had a choice to either choose life or to choose death. They chose death. Not because God wanted them to. It was because they wanted to choose death.



Yet, you ignore the example in Jeremiah about how God forms the clay according to what they do (See Jeremiah 18).

When one says, "He chose me but I could have rejected Him", with respect, is simply demeaning the amazing power of God's enlightenment regarding the truth of the love of Jesus.
Affirming the human will before that great enlightenment is imo, the greatest penury of the human mind.

 

[OzSpen]

edit

 

[OzSpen]

edit

 

[OzSpen]

Faith is a given (Acts 3:16 - the faith which is by him). Man cannot produce it.

Believing & confessing follows faith.

Now faith is an assurance (Heb11:1). Assurance of what? That He has saved.

So salvation precedes the assurance.

Ozspen, Do you state that you earn salvation by producing faith followed with believing?

I believe = pisteuw. Faith = pistis. Both come from the same Greek root. To believe is to have faith.

I have never ever stated that I earn salvation by my producing faith or belief. However, this I know on the Authority of Scripture: The Philippian jailer was given the ability to believe on the Lord Jesus and be saved (Acts 16:31 ESV).

Oz

 

[Hal A Peno]

duyj

 

[OzSpen]

Regeneration refers to the transformed mind that is willing to hear. This transformation is not a product of believing.

Believing cannot exist without this transformation.

That's a Calvinistic perspective. Regeneration refers to being born from above (born again). See: What is the Christian doctrine of regeneration?

This article explains:

How does regeneration take place? Both John 3 and Ephesians 2 indicate that this change is the result of faith in Christ. Just as an infant does nothing to be born into this world, there is no work a person can perform to become spiritually reborn. God gives new life by His grace to those who trust in Him. Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."​

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

So you believe in forced regeneration. Not forced salvation. LOL.

Is that what Calvinists believe.

That's what the U in TULIP indicates. Unconditional election, in my understanding, is forced election, thus forced regeneration.

What's the point of evangelism?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Faith isn't a free gift, salvation is. If no faith were required for salvation, that means everybody is saved by the cross.

I find that to be a confusing statement. Isn't faith (believing) part of experiencing salvation?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I discuss about truth not about what someone called Calvin said.

But you are singing the same tune as Calvin is. You are talking about how salvation is entirely out of our hands (i.e. Calvinism's Unconditional Election).

Please do link my points to Calvinism.

Why? Do you not know about the standard Calvinism belief (Tulip)?

No human be it a non Christian or a Christian, is free. Man is either ruled by sin or by His grace that was given through His Son Jesus.

Then what you do here does not matter. If everything is predetermined by God, then you have to accept that God is the author of evil and sin. You have to conclude that God desires certain men to be damned so that they can sin. But it is never God's will that any man should sin. The Bible says that God does not even tempt man to sin but that man is drawn away by his own lusts and desires (James 1:13-14). So certainly God would never force man into a depraved state of sin. For there is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5). God is love (1 John 4:8), and God is good (Matthew 19:17).

One who says, "I received salvation by my faith or else I would not have been saved", do not understand that faith is a free gift nor does he understand the power of the revelation of His love.

Not true. The very definition of what "true love" is all about free will. For married couples each choose of their own free will to love each other. But if a man forced his love upon a woman whereby she did not want that love, then that would be something dark and twisted and not "true love."

Yes, there is no denying that God draws us by His love and what He has done for us with His death, resurrection, and ascension (after He told mary not to touch him), and that salvation is initially and ultimately a free gift, and that He changes our hearts and spirits to be brand new and different, and that we receive the Lord live within us (and His amazing love and peace), but our Lord also said that if you love me, you will keep my commandments. Keeping the commandments is not something that you just automatically do. In fact, believing on Jesus Christ is a commandment (1 John 3:23). In fact, the Lord commands all men everywhere to repent according to the Scriptures (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). A command is an instruction from God to man. There are close to a thousand commands in the New Testament alone. So to say that God force saves us to do His will when God has many commands for us to obey is just silly. For we know many today are not perfectly obeying God's commands or even close to doing that. Yet, it is God's will for you to be holy (1 Thessalonians 4:3). Yet, we know that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Yet, we know that we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Yet, we know that the Lord is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY him (Hebrews 5:9). Yet, we know Jesus said, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). For to fear God and to keep His commandments is the whole duty of man (Ecclesiastes 12:13). In fact, God warns us against the deceitfulness of sin so that it may not harden our hearts (Hebrews 3:13). Instructions and truths like these in our Bibles would not make any sense if God just forced saved some and forced damned others. For we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). But believe whatever you like. Just know that what you believe is not even remotely taught in the Bible.