The worst thing about Calvinism

Hammster said:

I believe regeneration is irresistible.

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My birth was irresistible. My mother pushed me out without even bothering to ask my opinion on the matter.

jimmyjimmy said:

My birth was irresistible. My mother pushed me out without even bothering to ask my opinion on the matter.

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Nicodemus understood that. He understood that Jesus was saying the new birth was out of our hands.

Si_monfaith said:

Hebrews 12:
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Jason, If His grace appears to force you, do you have a problem?

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There is a huge difference between what I believe God's Word says about God and His plan of salvation vs. what Calvinist's say about God and His plan of salvation. Please do not equate Calvinistic thinking with what I believe. God chastening His sons is not proof that God force regenerates people to be saved from a Totally Depraved state.

jimmyjimmy said:

My birth was irresistible. My mother pushed me out without even bothering to ask my opinion on the matter.

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So does Jesus have hinges like on a door? He calls himself the door. Is Jesus square in appearance and made out of certain materials? I think analogies do illustrate truth, but I do not think they were meant to be taken to the farthest extreme. Jesus is technically not a shepherd living here upon this Earth on a farm somewhere who takes care of actual real physical sheep. He is a sheep in the spiritual sense.

Besides, you are by-product of your father and mother who did choose of their own free will choice to have you. So without free will, you would not exist.

Hammster said:

Nicodemus understood that. He understood that Jesus was saying the new birth was out of our hands.

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Where in the Bible does it say Nicodemus was aware of this?

jimmyjimmy said:

I was forced to be born when I was.
I was forced to be born in the US.
I was forced to be born in the state I was.
I was forced to have the parents I do.
I was forced to have the siblings I do
I was forced to have the aunts and uncles I do
I was forced to be the height I am
I was forced to have the amazing IQ I do (just to see if you were paying attention)

We are creatures. Being created was not our call. It was His. Your autonomy is a myth.

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Yes, I believe there are things that God is sovereign over. But it is not unloving of God to choose where you live, your height, your weight, intelligence, your parents, etc. Yes, some people may be born with more physical challenges than other children, but I believe they are things that God uses for the best option for that person to repent. We live in a sin fallen world, but God knows the best way for each person and their personality so as to accept the gospel of their own free will choice. Just because we cannot shoot lasers from our eyes, control weather storms, and fly does not mean we do not have things that we are in control over according to our free will. This would include choosing the Lord, because if we didn't have free will choosing the Lord, then there would be no judgment. For can a person who is brainwashed or programmed be held accountable for their actions in the same way like a normal human being? Surely not.

Jason0047 said:

Where in the Bible does it say Nicodemus was aware of this?

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Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" - John 3:4

Si_monfaith said:

John 16

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

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You could have 1 million interpretations upon this passage. There is no way for me to know what you think it means. I am going to ask you those two questions one more time (with a "yes or no" answer attached to each). If I don't get a straight answer from you, then I am going to ignore your posts and move on.

Do you believe God chooses some for salvation based on no conditions whatsoever when He has the power to save them all?

(Yes, or no?)

Do you know about the five points of Calvinism?

(Yes, or no?)

Jason0047 said:

So does Jesus have hinges like on a door? He calls himself the door. Is Jesus square in appearance and made out of certain materials? I think analogies do illustrate truth, but I do not think they were meant to be taken to the farthest extreme. Jesus is technically not a shepherd living here upon this Earth on a farm somewhere who takes care of actual real physical sheep. He is a sheep in the spiritual sense.

Besides, you are by-product of your father and mother who did choose of their own free will choice to have you. So without free will, you would not exist.

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And without God's free will, we won't be born again.

Trying to marginalized Jesus' illustration on the basis that we can take them too far doesn't help you here. But it's safe to say that in the same way we are born, we are also born again.

thecolorsblend said:

Would you care to offer your thoughts on those passages?

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The will cannot choose unless it is informed intellectually and emotionally.

Since sin rules man, sin chooses (Romans 7:17-20.

Man needs God's intervention to provide the necessary revelation by His grace. Once grace replaces the rule of sin (Romans 5:21) and starts its rule, man is given the assurance called faith (1 Timothy 1:14).

Then man is enabled to believe & confess to glorify Jesus because he is saved.

Hammster said:

Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" - John 3:4

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He was confused by making this statement. He thought Jesus was talking about a physical birth when Jesus was talking about a spiritual birth. The two are somewhat related but they are not exact. For example: We do not have a spiritual mother.

Hammster said:

And without God's free will, we won't be born again.

Trying to marginalized Jesus' illustration on the basis that we can take them too far doesn't help you here. But it's safe to say that in the same way we are born, we are also born again.

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Again, analogies only go so far in the comparison that is made most of the time. For we do not have a spiritual mother. We were not conceived in the same way, either.

jimmyjimmy said:

God, the only autonomous being, would cease to be autonomous if your view were true, because He *re*acts, rather than acts. You have men leading and God following.

You can't take away His autonomy and give it to men without doing severe damage to the very nature of the Godhead.

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Does Man Have Free Will?

Free will is defined in a few different ways. Here is one of it's definitions.

Free will (Noun) - The ability to act at one's own discretion.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...sh/free%2Bwill

In fact, the origin of the word "will" is especially important to look at, too. It says this..

Will (Verb) - To wish, desire, want, to will, or to choose.

Online Etymology Dictionary

Now, how can you have the desire for anything or to choose differently if you did not have the free choice (i.e. free will) to choose or to not to choose in the first place?

Anyways, here is a list of the different types of Free Will that I hope you shall consider.

The Three different types of Free Will:


And the hypothetical Free Will that does not exist for any being within our universe.
Which is...


A. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Free Will:
All non-believers or people who have not genuinely accepted Christ as their Savior are slaves to sin in some way. Now, this does not mean that unbelievers are not capable of making limited free will choices that are correct or good for their own well being (like choosing not to murder, steal, fornicate, or do drugs). However, on the other hand they are limited in their free will in the sense that they are slaves to sin and will have some type of sin within their life that separates them from God. They have free will to accept Jesus as their Savior. This is why there will be a Judgment.

B. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will:
All true believers in Christ or those who genuinely accept Jesus as their Savior are set free from being a slave to sin. This gives the believer a higher level of free will than that of a non-believer who is incapable of not sinning habitually. Now, does this mean that the believer does not have the free will to no longer sin anymore? No, most certainly not. It just means that they are no longer bound to sin anymore and are given a higher status of limited free will (or limited choices). They are also not forced against their free will to have a continued salvation or to still be a believer in Christ if they decide to change their minds, too. They still must choose each day to serve the Lord or to not serve the Lord. For a believer can forfeit his or her salvation if they do not live for Christ and become a new creature; Thus, showing that they were born again.

C. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will:
God is limited to doing only that which is good and right. For God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. God is love and in Him is no evil. He is the very embodiment of all that is Holy, just, perfect, and good in this life. For there is none good but God. In other words, God is incapable of doing any type of evil or sin. He is perfect and good in every way. His limitation is that He can only do that which is good and right. Which of course is a good limitation to have. So praise be to our God for being all that is loving and good.

D. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will:
No being in the universe has absolute or ultimate free will. For if absolute free will existed, then there would have to be a being who could do whatever they wanted whether good or evil with no restrictions or consequences attached whatsoever. In other words, this concept of Free Will is purely imaginary because no being possesses this type of Free Will type characteristics.

In other words, It is not God's will or desire that you sin and reject Him. Yes, you are under His creation, sovereign rule, and divine plan (because the Lord can work both good and evil for His purposes), but God does not approve of someone doing evil as if it was His approved of will or desire for your life. God is good. Not evil.

For the moment you take away free will (not ultimate free will) is the moment you make God responsible for directly creating evil and sin. However, there is no darkness in God at all. God created free willed beings that made the decision to be evil and to sin. God did not force Adam and Eve to rebel. They had a choice to either choose life or to choose death. They chose death. Not because God wanted them to. It was because they wanted to choose death.

You said:

Understand that *He* is the Potter, and *you* are the clay, and you will be in much agreement with Calvinists.

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Yet, you ignore the example in Jeremiah about how God forms the clay according to what they do (See Jeremiah 18).

Jason0047 said:

He was confused by making this statement. He thought Jesus was talking about a physical birth when Jesus was talking about a spiritual birth. The two are somewhat related but they are not exact. For example: We do not have a spiritual mother.

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No, he wasn't an idiot. He knew what was being referred to. You will be hard pressed to find any commentator who would agree with your assessment.

Jason0047 said:

Again, analogies only go so far in the comparison that is made most of the time. For we do not have a spiritual mother. We were not conceived in the same way, either.

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But ignoring them, as you are doing here, marginalizes them. The comparison is obvious. We have no say in our birth or rebirth.

Hammster said:

I do believe that we have free will in choosing to repent and obey (we don't "choose Jesus").

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Can be a believer be prodigal and live in sin for a while and still be saved? Or is holiness (not walking in sinful ways like taking the Lord's name in vain, lying, porn, and enjoying evil or violent things, etc.) the mark of all true believers?

Anyways, if we don't choose Jesus, and it is God's decision to ultimately save us, then how can God judge us? Yes, I know you said we were sinful, but we did not choose to be sinful since birth. This would be like having a judgment for wolves because they ate people. Do you think there will be a judgment for wolves?

You said:

We just don't choose whether we are renerate or not (thank the Lord).

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Because that gets man off the hook, right? We don't have to worry about what we do in this life. It doesn't matter. God chooses some to be saved and others not to be saved, so I can just live my life however I like and tell people that they do not need to worry about accepting Jesus because God will one day force regenerate them to accept the Lord. But that is not what the Bible teaches.

Hammster said:

No, he wasn't an idiot. He knew what was being referred to. You will be hard pressed to find any commentator who would agree with your assessment.

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This is like reading 2 + 2 = 4 and saying the answer is 5. It is plain in what it says. Perhaps this video clip taken verbatim from the Good News Translation will help you to see what happened.

Jason0047 said:

Can be a believer be prodigal and live in sin for a while and still be saved? Or is holiness (not walking in sinful ways like taking the Lord's name in vain, lying, porn, and enjoying evil or violent things, etc.) the mark of all true believers?

Anyways, if we don't choose Jesus, and it is God's decision to ultimately save us, then how can God judge us? Yes, I know you said we were sinful, but we did not choose to be sinful since birth. This would be like having a judgment for wolves because they ate people. Do you think there will be a judgment for wolves?



Because that gets man off the hook, right? We don't have to worry about what we do in this life. It doesn't matter. God chooses some to be saved and others not to be saved, so I can just live my life however I like and tell people that they do not need to worry about accepting Jesus because God will one day force regenerate them to accept the Lord. But that is not what the Bible teaches.

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I agree that's not what the Bible teaches. Neither is that taught in Reformed Theology.

Does your attempt to be holy include honesty?

Hammster said:

But ignoring them, as you are doing here, marginalizes them. The comparison is obvious. We have no say in our birth or rebirth.

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Then you have to assume you have a spiritual mother, and that our spiritual birth occured in the same way as our physical birth, too. Parables are only to be used to illustrate a certain point. For Jesus is not a physical shepherd here upon this Earth on a farm somewhere attending real physical sheep. Jesus does not have hinges like on a door. Yet, Jesus is called the door or the gate.

Hammster said:

I agree that's not what the Bible teaches. Neither is that taught in Reformed Theology.

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Which part? Are you saying that a believer can live in serious sin (or be unprofitable for God in this life) and still be saved? Or do you believe that one needs to have works and holiness to be defined as a true believer? By your words here, I am getting the impression that holiness is merely optional and it does not relate to salvation.

You said:

Does your attempt to be holy include honesty?

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Lying would fall under one being honest or not. Not revealing truth does not mean one is lying or being dishonest. Jesus said to the Pharisees that they are gods as a way of deflecting them away from the fact that He was saying that He was God. For Jesus had a mission to protect.