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The "us" is in reference to all of humanity. We were all wicked at one point in our life.
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Well, except for the us part, you could have been correct.
He said no, God doesn't have the power and authority.
I've answered this question, but you refuse to.
I've answered this question, but you refuse to.
If God is going to annihilate them, then punishing them before this endless annihilation occurs does them no good & only harm. Such a punishment is harmful & sadistic to those he is going to annihilate. Yet you accuse the Calvinist caricature of God as being unloving.
I believe the Bible, correctly translated & interpreted, teaches eventual universalism as the final destiny of all human beings since Adam, after all have been delivered from "hell" & saved through Jesus Christ & Him crucified.
The reference to Hebrews 9:27 does not speak of "an expiration date" for salvation or God's love. After death comes judgement for all, sinners & saints. Judgement is a good thing:
"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)
The Greek word for "chastening" here can mean correction:
The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)
Heb.9:27 says it is appointed to men once to die. Does that deny men can die twice? No. Does it say "only" once? No. If New England is appointed to play the Buffalo Bills twice, does that deny they won't meet again in the playoffs? No. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?
I think, in light of the Rapture theory, many Christians would disagree with the statement that 100% of mankind will die and face judgment. Not only that, but Hebrews 9:27 does not say men are "only" going to die once. Lazarus, for one, is a Biblical example of one who died twice & the book of Revelation speaks of the "second death"."
Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all
Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high
Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty
Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
I am not really interested in debating Universal Salvationism with anyone. This position is even farther out there in left field than Calvinism. Anyways, this thread is about Calvinism and why it is wrong and it is not about Universal Salvationism.
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The topic is Calvinism and why it is wrong and the topic is not about Universal Salvationism.
But I can see why you sympathesize with Calvinism, because Universal Salvationism uses a similar concept or idea. Forced Salvationism. But such a belief leads a believer to be apathetic in their faith. Meaning, that what you do here really does not matter.
Imagine a world where no law enforcement officer exists and no prison kept the criminals locked away. Imagine a world where people could do whatever evil they wanted and they could just get away with it. Would you like to live in a world like that?
See, God is going to judge sin and evil people. To say they are just not going to be punished flies against what we know about fair justice. if bad behavior is not punished then why should we expect good behavior to be rewarded?
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Once again, that would make Peter sound nutty. But apparently consistency isn't important as long as you can support your tradition.The "us" is in reference to all of humanity. We were all wicked at one point in our life.
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That was your answer. You said God doesn't have the power and authority to save everyone.God not having power and authority?
That doesn't sound like God is truly sovereign or Calvinistic if you ask me.
How about you? Yes, or no?
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That was your answer. You said God doesn't have the power and authority to save everyone.
The thing is in your view God is not just imprisoning the wicked in some comfy jail cell till He annihilates them. They are in torments in hell (Lk.16:19-31) until judgement and then you have them getting punished/tormented some more before their final, and by far the worst of all, punishment, namely endless annihilation. Since God is going to annihilate them anyway, all these previous punishments prior to annihilation are doing them no good & only harm, which exposes your view of God as being unloving. If God was loving He would annihilate them as soon as they died & spare them all the other punishments. Or better yet, keep on trying to save them till He got His desire of their salvation. Although annihilation is certainly more merciful than endless torments.
Once again, that would make Peter sound nutty. But apparently consistency isn't important as long as you can support your tradition.
Let's say that you are correct, since we will just keep going back and forth. Who grants repentance?Not at all. God is long suffering towards us as humanity as a whole and not willing that ANY human should perish but that ALL humans should come to repentance. This was said in verse 9 right after Peter was talking about the unbelieving wicked humanity in verses 3-7. Peter was once among them. So there is no inconsistency here or Peter sounding nutty going on. You are merely looking at these verses with Calvinistic glasses and cannot see what the text says otherwise.
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Let's say that you are correct, since we will just keep going back and forth. Who grants repentance?
More redefining. But if you're good with that, there's not much I can do.Well, I used to think 2 Timothy 2:25 was talking about God enabling a person to repent, but that is not what it is saying.
We have to realize that the King James (Which says "give repentance") influenced other Modern Translations. While I consider the KJV to be the perfect Word of God for our day, I also realize that some of it's meaning within it's words and or phrases are hidden to us in the modern world because it uses 1600's English that we do not use today. We cannot expect to enforce "Late Modern English" (our English today) upon "Early Modern English" (1600's English).
2 Timothy 2:25 is talking about allowing the opportunity for repentance through the preaching of the gospel.
"Also he should be gentle as he corrects his opponents. For God may perhaps grant them the opportunity to turn from their sins, acquire full knowledge of the truth," (2 Timothy 2:25) (CJB) (Complete Jewish Bible).
Context.
"Also he should be gentle as he corrects his opponents." (2 Timothy 2:24) (CJB).
So while a believer is gentle as he corrects his opponents (in defending the gospel), he is then allowing for an opportunity for them to see the truth whereby they will repent.
We see elsewhere in Scripture the words, "grant them repentance":
“‘The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.’" (Acts of the Apostles 5:30-31).
“‘Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?’ When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, ‘Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.’” (Acts of the Apostles 11:17-18).
The simple meaning of God granting repentance is God giving the opportunity to be saved, for both Jews and Gentiles alike. However, when Calvinists read “grant them repentance,” they see “Irresistible Grace,” and for secretly elect Jews and secretly elect Gentiles.
Source Used:
ExamingCalvinism
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More redefining. But if you're good with that, there's not much I can do.
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