I lean more towards Faith = Salvation, no works required.
Even though works will tend to be present when one is saved, its not a necessary condition for salvation.
The Law of Moses is finished in Christ. We now keep the Law of Christ/Law of the Spirit in Christ by Faith. We are saved by Faith and Justified(shown true unto God) by both faith and works. No Flesh is justified in the Keeping of the Law of Moses(Law written by the Hand of Moses), but we are justified in the Keeping of the laws of Christ(Law which is of Faith). The Ten commandments are Part of The Law of faith so we must keep them as commanded in the NT.The Works of the Law
Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.
But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.
Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."
The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.
Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.
Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.
Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
The Works of the Law
Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.
But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.
Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."
The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.
Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.
Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.
Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
The Works of the Law
Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.
But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.
Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."
The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.
Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.
Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.
Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
The Works of the Law
Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.
But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.
Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."
The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.
Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.
Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.
Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
The Works of the Law
Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.
But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.
Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."
The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.
Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.
Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.
Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
After we are saved? Your statement is a logical contradiction. You're saying after we are saved we have to do works to be saved. Which is it? Let's consider first part of your premise "After we are saved". how do you get into that state? Do you say it's really by God's grace alone, or do you mean that we must do works to get to that state?After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:
The Works of the Law
Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.
But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.
Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."
The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.
Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.
Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.
Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
After we are saved? Your statement is a logical contradiction. You're saying after we are saved we have to do works to be saved. Which is it? Let's consider first part of your premise "After we are saved". how do you get into that state? Do you say it's really by God's grace alone, or do you mean that we must do works to get to that state?
No, faith is an attitude. Works are things that you do. Attitudes are like "intention", "faith", "Hope", "trust". They're a person's disposition. Paul doesn't classify those as "works". Consider Rom 4:4,5 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but believes God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
If faith is works, as you say, then you end up with "However, to the man who does not work but works God who justifies the wicked, his work is credited as righteousness."
I guess that's how faith-in-works Christians read the Bible.
The Works of the Law
Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.
But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.
Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."
The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.
Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.
Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.
Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
After we are saved? Your statement is a logical contradiction. You're saying after we are saved we have to do works to be saved. Which is it? Let's consider first part of your premise "After we are saved". how do you get into that state? Do you say it's really by God's grace alone, or do you mean that we must do works to get to that state?
From time to time do you commit sin? When you commit a sin do you lose your salvation? Between the time when you sinned and you repented if you were to die, would you go to hell?@bcbsr:
By what you said so far, you believe that you are saved by a belief alone in Jesus. This essentially means that you believe that the grace of God teaches that we can sin and still be saved.
I’ve heard certain people teach that we are saved by “these” works (good works/works of faith/works of obedience etc..) and just not “those” works (works of the law) in order to get around certain passages of scripture, such as Romans 4:5,6; Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..)
However, that argument is problematic. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith/work of obedience,” yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18).
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now which good works could a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)
Paul clearly stated that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). He did not say saved through faith and works. In verse 10, Paul went on to say that we are created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. Elsewhere, Paul said that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5). Paul also said that He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9). Paul NEVER said that we are saved by faith and works.
From time to time do you commit sin? When you commit a sin do you lose your salvation? Between the time when you sinned and you repented if you were to die, would you go to hell?
Those who have been qualified to be saved by faith in Christ alone are born of God. And as such are incapable of living in sin. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 and such is not a cause of their salvation, but an indication that such people have been saved and how they can be distinguished from children of the devil among the "Christian" community "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:10
It is no surprise that those "Christians" who don't believe the gospel find this inconceivable, and rather misconstrue such verses as they do many other verses as affirming their salvation by works soteriology, this thread itself containing multiple examples of such. Such people who oppose the gospel continue to sin in their unbelief, if not in other ways they simply overlook.
While those born of God don't live in sin, they will sin from time to time in the aorist sense. Christ takes care of the aorist sins committed by those born of God "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin (aorist tense). But if anybody does sin (aorist tense), we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense— Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1John 2:1,2
For detailed technical study of 1John see the link.
I didn't claim what you allege. I didn't claim that a person needs to not habitually live in sin in order to be saved. I claim, as 1John indicates, that those who are saved don't habitually sin. Any rational person can understand the difference. Furthermore the effect of salvation is not the cause of salvation. I will not insult your intelligence by assuming you can't distinguish between the concept of cause and effect. So don't insult my intelligence by claiming that that the effect of salvation which results in evidence of one's salvation status is the same as the cause of salvation. You bear false witness against me claiming that I'm contradicting myself. (Bearing false witness, is that a sin. If so have you lost your salvation or do you simply overlook your sins?)Besides, you are essentially saying that we are saved by works if you are proposing that we need to not habitually live in sin according to 1 John 2 and 1 John 3. So you are contradicting yourself. You are saying that a certain level or standard of holiness is needed as a part of identifying true saved believers (Which means that living holy on some level is required as a part of the salvation process)..