The Works of the Law

Guojing said:

If you believed that Paul is saying our works have a part to play in eternal life, would you mind sharing how you interpret Romans 5:12-19? Did our works had a part to play in condemning us to sin and death before we accepted Christ's obedience?

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The free gift of righteousness spoken of in 5:17, 18, & 19 is a real righteousness, not a merely imputed one. That righteousness is intended to not only remain intact and uncompromised in the believer, the new creation, but to increase even as time and grace allow. Read this through the lens of the Parable of the Talents.

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fhansen said:

The free gift of righteousness spoken of in 5:17, 18, & 19 is a real righteousness, not a merely imputed one. That righteousness is intended to not only remain intact and uncompromised in the believer, the new creation, but to increase even as time and grace allow. Read this through the lens of the Parable of the Talents.

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That is the problem when people mix scripture written to the Jews only, and scripture written to the Gentiles and Jews. We are not suppose to read and understand church doctrine to the Gentiles from the lens of what is preached under the Law.

Remember what Paul said

1 Cor 3:10
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel

I guess many Christians grow up in churches that preach almost exclusively on the 4 Gospels. Thus, whenever they try to understand Paul's gospel of Grace, given to him by the ascended Christ, they always try to understand it in the context of the Law dispensation which Jesus was under.

Guojing said:

We should obey Jesus yes, but take our doctrine from the Apostle Paul. Under the Gospel of Grace that was revealed to Paul, We do not obey to be saved nor to be justified.

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And if a doctrine says we are not to do as Christ says, just as yours does, then what?

I'm aware OSAS uses different spins (a spin for everyone's need) to justify their belief, and I've seen some that were really out there/made no sense at all, and your saying we need not get our doctrine form the son of God but a man instead, will go on my list of one of the most outrageous..

See, whenever OSAS does something like this particular belief of yours, they discredit themselves to non OSAS, and the only way they can get their victims to believe the type untruths you are pointing out here, is they already want to do nothing in order to get to heaven, keep sinning or whatever. For them and what they want so badly, they will be blind to logical thinking and actually believe something like: We should not get our Doctrine from the only one we should be getting out doctrine from...Christ. May I ask who preaches we should not get our doctrine from Christ?

So, please reread the scripture. Jesus had a way of making things very simple, and in those scriptures, he said straight up:

If we do what is evil we will rise to be condemned.

If we do not take care of those in need, Jesus said: to depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

And lastly, we need to follow the narrow path, not the wide road, as OSAS has twisted the word of God in to saying.

WARNING

I know it's too late for most hard core OSAS, and so be it, they wanted it, they got it. But for those who are undecided, please Don't let yourself be blinded into believing these OSAS teachings, because once you do, your selfishness may cause you to lose the ability to any longer be able to understand sound doctrine. And after that happens there is a great likelihood that same selfishness (want to do what you want, not what God wants) will get such a tight grip on you, as you can see has happened here, that you may never be able to let go.

You need more convincing? Here are just a couple of tips, and if possible I would love for others to add to them.

Simply look at some of the nonsense taught here, even the Atheists knows it's not right.

Then, as I've said before, watch the arguments here carefully, and notice how often OSASr's are questioned, and they don't answer certain questions. Then read the content and you'll see exactly what's going on, and why they would not answer.

For those stepping up, and asking those touchy questions, thank you, and please keep doing it as if lives depend on it, because they do.

Follow God/Christ, do as they say, and stay far away from those who say we can still act like the Devil/do as we like, and remain saved.

Kenny'sID said:

And if a doctrine says we are not to do as Christ says, just as yours does, then what?

I'm aware OSAS uses different spins (a spin for everyone's need) to justify their belief, and I've seen some that were really out there/made no sense at all, and your saying we need not get our doctrine form the son of God but a man instead, will go on my list of one of the most outrageous..

See, whenever OSAS does something like this particular belief of yours, they discredit themselves to non OSAS, and the only way they can get their victims to believe the type untruths you are pointing out here, is they already want to do nothing in order to get to heaven, keep sinning or whatever. For them and what they want so badly, they will be blind to logical thinking and actually believe something like: We should not get our Doctrine from the only one we should be getting out doctrine from...Christ. May I ask who preaches we should not get our doctrine from Christ?

So, please reread the scripture. Jesus had a way of making things very simple, and in those scriptures, he said straight up:

If we do what is evil we will rise to be condemned.

If we do not take care of those in need, Jesus said: to depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

And lastly, we need to follow the narrow path, not the wide road, as OSAS has twisted the word of God in to saying.

WARNING

I know it's too late for most hard core OSAS, and so be it, they wanted it, they got it. But for those who are undecided, please Don't let yourself be blinded into believing these OSAS teachings, because once you do, your selfishness may cause you to lose the ability to any longer be able to understand sound doctrine. And after that happens there is a great likelihood that same selfishness (want to do what you want, not what God wants) will get such a tight grip on you, as you can see has happened here, that you may never be able to let go.

You need more convincing? Here are just a couple of tips, and if possible I would love for others to add to them.

Simply look at some of the nonsense taught here, even the Atheists knows it's not right.

Then, as I've said before, watch the arguments here carefully, and notice how often OSASr's are questioned, and they don't answer certain questions. Then read the content and you'll see exactly what's going on, and why they would not answer.

For those stepping up, and asking those touchy questions, thank you, and please keep doing it as if lives depend on it, because they do.

Follow God/Christ, do as they say, and stay far away from those who say we can still act like the Devil/do as we like, and remain saved.

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I have realised that Christians have no problem not taking their church doctrine from the ot.

But when you tell them the 4 gospels are as ot as the rest of the ot, as Jesus in the flesh was only sent to the Jews, people get pretty upset.

Think of the 4 gospels as the conclusion of the ot.

Guojing said:

I have realised that Christians have no problem not taking their church doctrine from the ot.

But when you tell them the 4 gospels are as ot as the rest of the ot, as Jesus in the flesh was only sent to the Jews, people get pretty upset.

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Guojing said:

Think of the 4 gospels as the conclusion of the ot.

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Even if they are the NT?

What in the world are you doing?

If I am upset, it's only over the teaching of this mess (Things like we need not follow Jesus's doctrine or his commands, but man instead) to innocent seekers, and what it could cost them.

Mathew 18:6 If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

But that's right, we needn't worry about that because Jesus said it...right? Your's is one great, All Purpose, catch all, and a very convenient way to stop people from doing as Christ says, but just the opposite of what we should be doing, and we all know who teaches the opposite of what Christ does, and it ain't Anti Em

To you OSASR's, you'll be saying, "Hey, that's not what WE believe", but I assure you, some of your own spins on the Gospel sound just as bad, and are equally as harmful. I hope you're reading this just to see what OSAS/selfishness does to ones thinking.

Kenny'sID said:

Even if they are the NT?

What in the world are you doing?

If I am upset, it's only over the teaching of this mess (Things like we need not follow Jesus's doctrine or his commands, but man instead) to innocent seekers, and what it could cost them.

Mathew 18:6 If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

But that's right, we needn't worry about that because Jesus said it...right? Your's is one great, All Purpose, catch all, and a very convenient way to stop people from doing as Christ says, but just the opposite of what we should be doing, and we all know who teaches the opposite of what Christ does, and it ain't Anti Em

To you OSASR's, you'll be saying, "Hey, that's not what WE believe", but I assure you, some of your own spins on the Gospel sound just as bad, and are equally as harmful. I hope you're reading this just to see what OSAS/selfishness does to ones thinking.

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So in your view, all the NT is church doctrine for Gentiles, but not the OT?

Guojing said:

That is the problem when people mix scripture written to the Jews only, and scripture written to the Gentiles and Jews. We are not suppose to read and understand church doctrine to the Gentiles from the lens of what is preached under the Law.

Remember what Paul said

1 Cor 3:10
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel

I guess many Christians grow up in churches that preach almost exclusively on the 4 Gospels. Thus, whenever they try to understand Paul's gospel of Grace, given to him by the ascended Christ, they always try to understand it in the context of the Law dispensation which Jesus was under.

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Well, Guojing, yours is a very novel gospel, unfortunately not so novel nowadays in some circles, and far from the teachings of historic Christianity either way.

Guojing said:

So in your view, all the NT is church doctrine for Gentiles, but not the OT?

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What you are talking about there is from your own twisted view of things, something I have no interest in discussing, but even if I did let you trick me into saying something you can use, do you really believe that would change my view?

Fact is, you've clearly been duped, but as I've mentioned, with some people, their selfishness has them wanting to be duped, and wanting to be duped is the only way one will believe such outrageous things as you teach. So you've bought it, made your bed, and the time will come when you'll have to lie in it.

Kenny'sID said:

What you are talking about there is from your own twisted view of things, something I have no interest in discussing, but even if I did let you trick me into saying something you can use, do you really believe that would change my view?

Fact is, you've clearly been duped, but as I've mentioned, with some people, their selfishness has them wanting to be duped, and wanting to be duped is the only way one will believe such outrageous things as you teach. So you've bought it, made your bed, and the time will come when you'll have to lie in it.

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No one is trying to trick you into saying anything, don't be so paranoid.

Think of internet debate as more trying to understand how the other party really think, instead of trying to change their thinking. For one thing, people rarely change their opinion from such debates.

Guojing said:

For one thing, people rarely change their opinion from such debates.

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I can only hope those who have no solid opinion will see this and OSAS for what it is, and if nothing else, I honestly do appreciate your help with that.

Guojing said:

If you believed that Paul is saying our works have a part to play in eternal life,

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It's not what I believe. It's what the Bible says.
Again, Paul suggests (by the use of other words) that after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, we need works of faith (via the working of God in our lives) as a part of the salvation process.

Paul said you can deny God by a lack of works:


Paul says if any man does not consent (does not agree) with the words of Jesus, and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud, and they know nothing:


Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that we need to love God, and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28). Jesus said to the rich young ruler that if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Which is the "moral law" such as: Do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc.) (See Matthew 19:17-19). Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus (Which would include these words in Luke 10:25-28, and Matthew 19:17-19, they are proud and they know nothing). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Paul says if you live after the flesh, you will die, but if you put to death the deeds of the body (sin), you shall live:


So a person has two choices. They can live one way (after the flesh or sin) and die spiritually, or they can live another way (by putting away sin via the Spirit) and live spiritually.

There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH (sin), but who who walk after the Spirit.

In other words, in order to not be condemned, one cannot walk after their own flesh or sinful lusts, but they must walk after the Spirit instead.

You said:

...would you mind sharing how you interpret Romans 5:12-19?

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I interpret Romans 5:12-19 as talking about Initial and or Ultimate Salvation.

Romans 5:2 says,
"By whom also we have access by faith into this grace [Initial Salvation] wherein we stand [Ultimate Salvation or the Foundation of our Faith by which we can stand so as to obey the Lord],"

Romans 5:12-19 says,
12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift [Note: Gifts are received one time, which means this is focusing on how we are "Initially Saved"]. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life [Note: This is saying the free gift has become available to all men, and their past sins can be forgiven].
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous [Note: Many shall be made righteous by Christ's sacrifice because Christ can forgive our past sins or clean our past slate clean so as to then live or walk righteously. 1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous]."

Note: The above brackets (with words in blue) are my commentaries to the text.

Anyways, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ and not by works. For if we sin, do we become forgiven by doing another good work? No. It is by confessing our sins whereby we can be forgiven and be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9; 1 John 2:1). Grace gives us the ability to then walk uprightly. We will always trust in the grace of Jesus Christ for salvation in how we are ultimately saved, but if we do not enter into the Sanctification process by the Spirit, and walk in the Spirit, we will be under the Condemnation (See again Romans 8:1). For if one lives after the flesh (sin), they will die spiritually; For they have to put to death the sinful deeds of the body by the Spirit (See again Romans 8:13).

You said:

Did our works had a part to play in condemning us to sin and death before we accepted Christ's obedience?

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Yes.

5 "...God
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God."
(Romans 2:5-11).

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:29).

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
(James 2:18-19).

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48).

What words of Jesus can we reject that can judge us on the last day?

Jesus said if any man looks upon a woman in lust, he has committed adultery in his heart (Matthew 5:28-30).

Jesus said if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15).

Even after the cross, the apostle John says that if we hate our brother, no eternal life abides in us (See 1 John 3:15).

Jesus says to certain believers,
"...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:23).

This is context to obeying Jesus and doing what He says.
For those who do not do what Jesus says they are likened unto fools whose homes were destroyed by a storm.

26 "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:26-27).



Are you doing what Jesus says?
Jesus warns us if we do not do what He says, we are like a house that is destroyed by a storm.

Kenny'sID said:

I can only hope those who have no solid opinion will see this and OSAS for what it is, and if nothing else, I honestly do appreciate your help with that.

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So in your view, everything in NT is considered as church doctrine, but OT depends right?

Jason0047 said:

It's not what I believe. It's what the Bible says.

Romans 5:12-19 says,
12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift [Note: Gifts are received one time, which means this is focusing on how we are "Initially Saved"]. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life [Note: This is saying the free gift has become available to all men, and their past sins can be forgiven].
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous [Note: Many shall be made righteous by Christ's sacrifice because Christ can forgive our past sins or clean our past slate clean so as to then live or walk righteously. 1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous]."

Note: The above brackets (with words in blue) are my commentaries to the text.

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So your interpretation of Romans 5:12-19 is that Christ only forgave your past sins, but your future sins need to be regularly confessed, and good deeds need to be done.

Otherwise, there will come a time where that "free gift" of imputed righteousness is lost?

Guojing said:

So in your view, everything in NT is considered as church doctrine, but OT depends right?

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What??

I've seen oddball questions like the all to often here. You are clearly trying to twist something so, why don't you just come out and say what you mean?

Guojing said:

So your interpretation of Romans 5:12-19 is that Christ only forgave your past sins, but your future sins need to be regularly confessed, and good deeds need to be done.

Otherwise, there will come a time where that "free gift" of imputed righteousness is lost?

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There is a difference between talking about the faithful saints who are justified by Christ's one time sacrifice in general terms vs. present day moment to moment individual forgiveness. 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. This is Christ's sacrifice. His blood washes away our sin. This is the imputation of Christ. But you have to walk in the light as 1 John 1:7 says. 1 John 2:9-11 defines what "walking in the light" means. It essentially says that "walking in the light" = "loving your brother." This makes sense because 1 John 3:15 says that he that does not love his brother is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. So can a believer later murder or hate their brother and have the imputed righteousness of Christ on them? Surely not. Not if you believe the whole counsel of God's Word.


Side Note:

You ignored most of the Scripture verses I put forth to you. Please address at least some of the other verses I provided (if you believe the Bible supports your view here).

Kenny'sID said:

What??

I've seen oddball questions like the all to often here. You are clearly trying to twist something so, why don't you just come out and say what you mean?

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You are still so paranoid. I am trying to figure whether you have a red letter bible thinking. These are Christians who prize the red words of Jesus in the 4 gospels as their main doctrine.

Jason0047 said:

So can a believer later murder or hate their brother and have the imputed righteousness of Christ on them? Surely not. Not if you believe the whole counsel of God's Word.

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But in Romans 5:12-19, Paul contrasted Jesus's obedience with Adam's. If all of us agree that an unbeliever, no matter how many good deeds he or she does, will still have Adam's sinful nature and thus destined for hell, why are we thinking that Jesus's imputed righteousness to us is more fragile than Adam?

We cannot lose Adam's free gift of a sinful nature by doing good deeds, but we can lose Jesus's free gift of imputed righteousness to us thru our bad deeds? Is that what you believe in?

Guojing said:

But in Romans 5:12-19, Paul contrasted Jesus's obedience with Adam's. If all of us agree that an unbeliever, no matter how many good deeds he or she does, will still have Adam's sinful nature and thus destined for hell, what are we thinking that Jesus's imputed righteousness to us is more fragile than Adam?

We cannot lose Adam's free gift of a sinful nature by doing good deeds, but we can lose Jesus's free gift of imputed righteousness to us thru our bad deeds? Is that what you believe in?

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The Bible is not written in a way that we prefer. Parallels in the Bible are not always meant to be exact in every way. I did not write the Bible. God did. If you have a problem with it, take it up with God. Again, the condition is 1 John 1:7. It says: If you walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light (i.e. God the Father's light), the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 2:9-11 defines specifically what "Walking in the light" means.

Walking in the light = Loving your brother.

Verse 10 says, "He that loveth his brother abideth in the light,"
Verse 11 says, "But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness,"

1 John 4:12 says, "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

In other words, the Bible is telling us in two different ways that we need to love our brother as a part of eternal life (or as a part of Christ's blood cleansing us of all sin).

Now, you can either choose to:

(a) Ignore these verses, or:
(b) Change these verses to say something else (to fit your personal belief), or:
(c) Believe them at face value.

The choice is to you.

Choose wisely.

Guojing said:

But in Romans 5:12-19, Paul contrasted Jesus's obedience with Adam's. If all of us agree that an unbeliever, no matter how many good deeds he or she does, will still have Adam's sinful nature and thus destined for hell, what are we thinking that Jesus's imputed righteousness to us is more fragile than Adam?

We cannot lose Adam's free gift of a sinful nature by doing good deeds, but we can lose Jesus's free gift of imputed righteousness to us thru our bad deeds? Is that what you believe in?

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We must choose this day in whom we will serve. No man can serve two masters. Maybe you don't see being a servant of the Lord as a daily thing, but maybe as a past event that only happened once to you, but I see serving the Lord as an ongoing thing in my life. Also, when a person sins (regardless if they are a believer or not), they identify with the devil's kingdom.

For 1 John 3:8 says, "He that committeth sin is of the devil;"

This is not just minor infractions here like not taking out the trash on the right day, but it is the kind of sin that grievous (or serious) like hating your brother (See 1 John 3:15). Any breaking of the Moral Law is the equivalent of not loving your neighbor (See Romans 13:8-10).

John 3:20 says, "Everyone who does evil hates the light." (This is a part of the Condemnation - Read John 3:19-21). Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those who in Christ Jesus who WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, but who WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT. So the condition of not being under the "Condemnation" is to walk not after the flesh (sin), and to walk after the Holy Spirit in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:13 says,
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

Jesus said to certain Jews,

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." (John 8:44).

"If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39).

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47).

This lines up with what the apostle John says,
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

Again, the Bible says it in several different ways that if anyone (regardless if they are a believer or not) and they do evil, or sin, they are not of God.

For the Jews thought they were saved because Abraham was their father.

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39).