The word "until"

[shinbits]

John 8:19

(See also the Babylonian Talmud.)

What does that prove? Jesus was known to have a father by the people:

Matt:13:55:
"Is not this the carpenter's son?"

Jesus was NOT thought to be a bastard.

 

[Thekla]

What does that prove? Jesus was known to have a father by the people:

Matt:13:55:
"Is not this the carpenter's son?"

Jesus was NOT thought to be a bastard.

Please consult the references given; I have not stated that this claim was held by all.
I gave two references, but did not make any other claim or statement.

 

[shinbits]

It is evidence that something occurred; burglary is not the only option.
Consider; internal explosion (gas), tornado, vandalism, etc.

Doesn't matter if it's not the only option. It's by far the most likely option. Likewise with Jesus having brothers from Mary, likewise with Mary being Joseph's wife, and likewise with Mary having sex.

Again, inference is not evidence. It is opinion.

Can one be incarcerated on a single inference ?

Inference is evidence. But it's not always proof. You're confusing the two. Enough logical inference can and has convicted people.

 

[Livindesert]

Provide evidence from Holy Scripture to support your claim. Otherwise, it is unBiblical.

As for the OT passages, see for example Ezekiel 43:27 - 44:4.

Who is referred to in the Psalm as one "only begotten" ? The Psalmist was not an only child.

Christians have used "typos" in interpretation from the earliest time (see Paul on this matter); it is only recently that typos is no longer used.

The typos of Mary is the singularity of use of the Ark.

Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Not of Mary. Mary did not beget Jesus but gave Jesus his human side not his diven side which was beget of God.

Again look on our back post we have now shown 3 areas where until refered to a length of time that ends with something else happening after. We also have a clear passage saying , they waited until Jesus was born to have sex.

I have many times said when I was wrong about a passages meaning and it is no big deal. But it seems you as a Orthodox view your theology as being wrong as us stating Christianity is not true. Please stop looking at Oral tradition long enoungh to look at the actual Apostolic text.

 

[Thekla]

Doesn't matter if it's not the only option. It's by far the most likely option. Likewise with Jesus having brothers from Mary, likewise with Mary being Joseph's wife, and likewise with Mary having sex.

If considering the OT, no.
If considering the Biblical account of the interaction of God with those who were prominent in the history of salvation, no.

Inference is evidence. But it's not always proof. You're confusing the two. Enough logical inference can and has convicted people.

If evidence is not required to be factual, then inference can be evidence.
It seems inference was used to convict Christ, for one.


But in this case, you have not presented factual or scriptural evidence.
Based on what is known of the Law, would one infer that God would command Hosea to marry a prostitute ?

 

[Livindesert]

Doesn't matter if it's not the only option. It's by far the most likely option. Likewise with Jesus having brothers from Mary, likewise with Mary being Joseph's wife, and likewise with Mary having sex.
.

QFT

 

[Thekla]

Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Not of Mary. Mary did not beget Jesus but gave Jesus his human side not his diven side which was beget of God.

Where does scripture state that Mary begot more children ?

Again look on our back post we have now shown 3 areas where until refered to a length of time that ends with something else happening after. We also have a clear passage saying , they waited until Jesus was born to have sex.

No, it says they did not have sex before Jesus was born.
This is the grammatically accurate reading in English.
The use of ews is broader in Greek; it can refer to either a span or an ongoing condition viewed within a particular span as a subset of the whole.

Neither language provides for the necessity that the condition must be reversed after the referenced span of time.

I have many times said when I was wrong about a passages meaning and it is no big deal. But it seems you as a Orthodox view your theology as being wrong as us stating Christianity is not true. Please stop looking at Oral tradition long enoungh to look at the actual Apostolic text.

I am using only scripture and the rules of the languages involved.

It is a tradition, without scriptural support, that Mary had other children.
The position that Mary had other children cannot be proven using scripture.

 

[Livindesert]

Where does scripture state that Mary begot more children ?

No, it says they did not have sex before Jesus was born.
This is the grammatically accurate reading in English.
The use of ews is broader in Greek; it can refer to either a span or an ongoing condition viewed within a particular span as a subset of the whole.

Neither language provides for the necessity that the condition must be reversed after the referenced span of time.


I am using only scripture and the rules of the languages involved.

It is a tradition, without scriptural support, that Mary had other children.
The position that Mary had other children cannot be proven using scripture.

Exactly Mary cannot beget like God can but Mary can birth other brothers and sisters like it says so in the scriptures. The only way it is not possible is if Mary or Joseph became barren so when they had sex as mentioned in Matthew they could not have concieved which is possible but not likely.

 

[Thekla]

Exactly Mary cannot beget like God can but Mary can birth other brothers and sisters like it says so in the scriptures.

Then provide the verse/s where it states she has.

The only way it is not possible is if Mary or Joseph became barren so when they had sex as mentioned in Matthew they could not have concieved which is possible but not likely.

Please provide the passage that states that Mary and Joseph "had sex".

 

[Hentenza]

The position that Mary had other children cannot be proven using scripture.

I think it can. The problem comes when passages are simply isolated to prove one way or the other. Grammatically it can not be disproven that Mary had other children not can it be disproven that Mary married Joseph.

The problem with the 'betrothal" theory is that the scripture evidence does not support it. It seems unlikely that Joseph and Mary would have an unmarried household for what seems likely to be over 30 years (at the very least 12 years).

1. We know from scripture that Joseph and Mary took Jesus to the temple when Jesus was 12 years old so that puts their "betrothal" at 12 years.

2. Then we see where the comment is made by those in Nazareth regarding the parenthood of Jesus (Joseph as his father, Mary as his mother, and others as his sisters and brothers). Keep in mind that grammatically Matt 13:55-56 relates to who lived and were part of Joseph's household not of his extended family such as cousins, etc. This would put Joseph and Mary's 'betrothal' at over 30 years if Joseph is still alive here (grammatically the verse does not support an assumption or inference that Joseph was already dead).

3. We also know from scripture that Mary is most blessed. That blessing most likely would have included additional children since the OT as well as the NT have described quite often the blessings that children bring.

As far as types, there are indeed quite a few types supported by scriptural evidence, however, there is quite a difference between a type and an illustration. A type is always stated as such by the NT writers while an illustration is not. Mary is never typed as the Ark but one can illustrate her as such. The problem, of course, is with being dogmatic based on illustrations.

 

[Jazmyn]

What about all those Marian miracles?

Why does Mary have to not be a virgin, what is the OP's obsession with this? I'm struggling to understand.

 

[Celticflower]

I don't think it's obvious she did. I think people want to read into certain Bible verses to confirm their natural 21st century mindset of how sex is. There's nothing in the Bible that says she had sexual relations with Joseph, who was 3 times her age. Good grief.

I'm sorry, but that's not "evidence." She had stepchildren, yes, because Joseph had been married before, as he was a widower when they met.

Amid all the speculation of whether they did or didn't have sex, whether Mary gave birth to other children etc. and the requests for scriptural proof from both sides I have yet to see any one prove the two boldened statements above scripturally. If you can prove to me, beyond the use of extra Biblical traditions, that Joseph was an old widower then maybe I'll believe that Mary was always and forever a virgin.

 

[Thekla]

I think it can. The problem comes when passages are simply isolated to prove one way or the other. Grammatically it can not be disproven that Mary had other children not can it be disproven that Mary married Joseph.

In short, this is my point - using the NT, neither position can be explicitly proven. A closer examination, per my study, tends to support the position of no other children and ever-virgin (as Joseph is, after the birth of Christ, not referred to again as the anir of Mary).

The problem with the 'betrothal" theory is that the scripture evidence does not support it. It seems unlikely that Joseph and Mary would have an unmarried household for what seems likely to be over 30 years (at the very least 12 years).

What ever would be considered likely, there are plausible explanations. A legal arrangement as a protective measure, for example. But, imo, absent any clear scriptural statement on the matter, and repeated examples of the "peculiarity" of the lives experienced by those called by God for specific roles in the history of salvation, it would be unlikely that Mary's life would not be likewise "peculiar".

1. We know from scripture that Joseph and Mary took Jesus to the temple when Jesus was 12 years old so that puts their "betrothal" at 12 years.

We only know that they were betrothed, that no marriage is mentioned, and that by this time they are referred to using the terminology of the parental role (not in relation to one another). There is no mention of other children in this account.

2. Then we see where the comment is made by those in Nazareth regarding the parenthood of Jesus (Joseph as his father, Mary as his mother, and others as his sisters and brothers). Keep in mind that grammatically Matt 13:55-56 relates to who lived and were part of Joseph's household not of his extended family such as cousins, etc. This would put Joseph and Mary's 'betrothal' at over 30 years if Joseph is still alive here (grammatically the verse does not support an assumption or inference that Joseph was already dead).

I am not sure what is meant by "grammatically". But, as before, the term adelphos/adelphi typically locates the origin of relationship in a common male (the def. of adelphi in the Perseus lexicon posits "homopatria"). Where the common male is the head of the household, the adelphos is referrent to that male, regardless of actual biological relationship. It is also, in this sense, a legal term. In sum, the use of the term is dependent on the individual's (adelphos) relationship to a common male, not to each other.

3. We also know from scripture that Mary is most blessed. That blessing most likely would have included additional children since the OT as well as the NT have described quite often the blessings that children bring.

But this would assume that she was only somewhat blessed to be the mother of Christ and needed more children to be most blessed. IMO, this diminishes the person of Christ.
She is most blessed because of what God has done for her, to be chosen and become the willing means for the Incarnation.

As far as types, there are indeed quite a few types supported by scriptural evidence, however, there is quite a difference between a type and an illustration. A type is always stated as such by the NT writers while an illustration is not. Mary is never typed as the Ark but one can illustrate her as such. The problem, of course, is with being dogmatic based on illustrations.

I do not quite agree with the location of the OT typos entirely as "illustrations". The typos employed by Paul and the earlier Christians (before typos fell out of favor in these latter days) are spiritual realities manifested in time and described in human language.

 

[Livindesert]

Then provide the verse/s where it states she has.


Please provide the passage that states that Mary and Joseph "had sex".

Jesus 's brothers and sisters are mentioned when they try to see Jesus but are told by him his diciples are his real family.

Matt 1: 25 says it plain as day. "Staff Edit"

 

[Thekla]

Jesus 's brothers and sisters are mentioned when they try to see Jesus but are told by him his diciples are his real family.

Matt 1: 25 says it plain as day. "Staff Edit"

The word used is "adelphos". It has a broad meaning (at least half a dozen meanings). Its use includes in-laws, countrymen, half-siblings, children of one's cousin, cousin, nephew, uncle, tribesman, relative, neighbor, etc.

Where a particular or precise meaning is meant, then a further description is given (as in, for ex., Plato's Laws). The term is unlike the English term "brother".

Matthew does not give a further description (nor does he re: the adelphos Herod and Phillip, who are half brothers, nor does John in his Gospel re: Mary and her adelphi Mary).

Reading the scripture in translation, in a different era, in a different culture can lead one to misunderstand what is actually written in the NT.

 

[Thekla]

Some examples:

Eleazar died and had no sons, but daughters only, so their brothers, the sons of Kish, took them as wives.

1 Chronicles 23:22

The bolded word in this passage is adelphos in the LXX

And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

Genesis 14:14

The bolded word in this passage is adelphos in the LXX.

 

[Livindesert]

adelphos is brother while adelphoi is cousin so you lie to us about adelphos to further the evil ones agenda.

 

[Thekla]

The LXX is part of the evil ones earthly church, I read only bibles translated from the greek so you are wrong again.

The LXX is in Greek, and is older than extant Masoretic texts. The LXX is quoted more frequently in the NT than the Masoretic is.

 

[Thekla]

adelphos is brother while adelphoi is cousin so you lie to us about adelphos to further the evil ones agenda.

This is incorrect. Greek is an inflected language; the endings change to agree with the case of the noun, to form plurals, etc.. Adelphoi has the same meaning as adelphos. You should look in a Greek grammar.

 

[narnia59]

adelphos is brother while adelphoi is cousin so you lie to us about adelphos to further the evil ones agenda.

Have you even looked at a concordance to note the differences? Just fyi -- adelphoi is used in the passage where Jesus' mother and 'brothers' are waiting to see him.