The word "until"

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shinbits

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If considering the OT, no.
If considering the Biblical account of the interaction of God with those who were prominent in the history of salvation, no.
You can't just say "no" without backing up why. Though really, you've been giving your opinion without backing up why this entire thread.
Any "evidence" you give is refuted with Biblical verses, and all you do is say "well, this doesn't necessarily that, even though it could".

^ That is speculation. Not evidence.

You've also shown you don't even know what evidence mean.s You're even arrogant enough argue against the translators of the Bible, like you're more of an expert.


If evidence is not required to be factual, then inference can be evidence.
It seems inference was used to convict Christ, for one.
Evidence is required to be factual. You'v been given facts. Direct quotes from the Bible, for instance. Like the fact that Joseph was engaged to Mary, showing why it's logical that the translators would call Mary his wife.

Oh, btw....it's not just one translator that believes this, but MANY translators and Biblical scholarsl. Almost EVERY Bible translation from Biblical scholars hold that Mary was Joseph's wife...yet YOU know better?

Tsk, tsk.


But in this case, you have not presented factual or scriptural evidence.
I've shown that that the Bible says over and over that Jesus had brothers. You've shown NO Scriptual evidence that this isn't what the Bible means. Only "brother might not necessarily mean brother, though it could mean brother".

This is stubornness through and through.

Based on what is known of the Law, would one infer that God would command Hosea to marry a prostitute ?
No "inference" is necessary. God clearly told Hosea to marry a prostitute.
 
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shinbits

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Livindesert

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Have you even looked at a concordance to note the differences? Just fyi -- adelphoi is used in the passage where Jesus' mother and 'brothers' are waiting to see him.

Ah.... so you prove my point that there are two different words unlike what Thelka would have us believe.

Notice how you have to go back to playing linguistic gymnastics with a word other than until because until proves you wrong in three different sections of Matthew.
 
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prodromos

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The LXX is part of the evil ones earthly church, I read only bibles translated from the greek so you are wrong again.
You remind me of that quote by Albert Einstein about which two things which are infinite.

The LXX is the Old Testament in Greek, as translated by the Jews for the Jews who were living in the diaspora and were no longer fluent in Hebrew. The LXX is heavily quoted in the New Testament by Christ and the Apostles.

There is no law against ignorance, but comments like yours certainly strengthen the argument for there being such a law.

John
 
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prodromos

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adelphos is brother while adelphoi is cousin so you lie to us about adelphos to further the evil ones agenda.
"Adelphos" is "brother" (singular) while "adelphoi" is "brothers" (plural).

You continue you reinforce what Einstein said about which things are infinite.

John
 
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narnia59

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Ah.... so you prove my point that there are two different words unlike what Thelka would have us believe.

Notice how you have to go back to playing linguistic gymnastics with a word other than until because until proves you wrong in three different sections of Matthew.
There are actually many variations of the same word not two different words, and Thekla is correct.

However, you have stated the word 'adelphoi' means cousin. If you are correct, you've proven that Jesus did not have brothers. The text you cite in Matthew regarding the brothers of Jesus coming with Mary to speak with him uses 'adelphoi'.

And regarding 'until' -- can you provide any dictionary that specifies the word means a change occurs after the point in time 'until' references? As I pointed out to another poster, using your insistence it means the situation changes proves Biblically that the world is still under water from the flood during Noah's time.
 
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Livindesert

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And regarding 'until' -- can you provide any dictionary that specifies the word means a change occurs after the point in time 'until' references? As I pointed out to another poster, using your insistence it means the situation changes proves Biblically that the world is still under water from the flood during Noah's time.

I already proved it in Matthew three times unless you think the old testement was written by the same guy as Matthew.
 
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Livindesert

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You remind me of that quote by Albert Einstein about which two things which are infinite.

The LXX is the Old Testament in Greek, as translated by the Jews for the Jews who were living in the diaspora and were no longer fluent in Hebrew. The LXX is heavily quoted in the New Testament by Christ and the Apostles.

There is no law against ignorance, but comments like yours certainly strengthen the argument for there being such a law.

John

I forgot that for a sec I though LXX was shorthand for vulgate. Either way thier is a word for cousin and brother.

Plus I have proved until in the book of Matthew three times to be a set period of time.
 
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Livindesert

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Matthew 5:18 (English Standard Version)

18For truly, I say to you,(A) until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Actually this proves Mary probably had sex since heaven and earth will pass away

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea



Matthew 22:42-46 (New International Version)

42"What do you think about the Christ[a]? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied. 43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." '[b] 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Again Jesus rose to the right hand of the father until the second comming when his enemies will be trampled under his feet. So until again shows a length of time not unlimited time.
 
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narnia59

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I already proved it in Matthew three times unless you think the old testement was written by the same guy as Matthew.
Nope, but both still translate to the English word "until". Please provide any English dictionary translation of the world "until" that address anything regarding what occurs after the point in time referenced.
 
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Thekla

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You can't just say "no" without backing up why. Though really, you've been giving your opinion without backing up why this entire thread.
Any "evidence" you give is refuted with Biblical verses, and all you do is say "well, this doesn't necessarily that, even though it could".

^ That is speculation. Not evidence.

You've also shown you don't even know what evidence mean.s You're even arrogant enough argue against the translators of the Bible, like you're more of an expert.

And the translators you cite are working against the reading of those who did not require a translation, but were reading their own language.

It is not merely a matter of "it can mean". It is that the terminology is not a straight translation to a different language in a different culture in a different era.

To choose among the various meanings without factual evidence is indeed speculative.



Evidence is required to be factual. You'v been given facts. Direct quotes from the Bible, for instance. Like the fact that Joseph was engaged to Mary, showing why it's logical that the translators would call Mary his wife.
I have also given facts; the facts of the language in which the account appears in its oldest (extant)* version.

Oh, btw....it's not just one translator that believes this, but MANY translators and Biblical scholarsl. Almost EVERY Bible translation from Biblical scholars hold that Mary was Joseph's wife...yet YOU know better?
And these translators are more knowledgeable about the language than those who are native speakers of the early centuries ?

Note that now, even, definitions are only expanded as texts from the era are discovered and translated. Meaning is being recovered presently; the meaning was never lost by those who understood and maintained the scripture from the earliest centuries; they did not need to "recover" the meaning.

The lexicons used in NT study are typically abbreviated and do not always contain the full range of a words meaning. Nor do they consider the cultural reality of the language. The absence of parallel tenses in English have led to misunderstandings by those reading in translation.


I've shown that that the Bible says over and over that Jesus had brothers. You've shown NO Scriptual evidence that this isn't what the Bible means. Only "brother might not necessarily mean brother, though it could mean brother".
You have pointed out repeatedly that Jesus had adelphoi; you have not provided any factual evidence from the Bible or elsewhere that describes the actual relationship of those adelphoi to Jesus.

If we are to rely on facts to support teachings, then I ask to provide factual evidence for the particular relationship that is meant. You are certainly welcome to believe according to your own tradition, but absent factual evidence it is a tradition.

This is stubornness through and through.
No, I am asking that you support your tradition exclusively using factual scriptural evidence.

No "inference" is necessary. God clearly told Hosea to marry a prostitute.
The question remains unanswered: can one reasonably infer from what precedes the book of Hosea that God would command a chosen prophet to marry a prostitute ?

*edit
 
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Thekla

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James the brother of Yeshua was chosen to be the elder at Jerusalem for the very reason of being a blood relative.

I am not certain where in the Holy Scripture this is said; either that he was a blood relative or that blood relationship confers spiritual authority.

As the relationship of "adelphoi" is typically reckoned through cross-relationship to a common male (father, grandfather, fatherland, spiritual father), the Matthean passage demonstrates that Christ eschewed relationship through affiliation with Joseph, preferring the relationship with others through God the Father.

Iakovos was recounted to be a righteous man, spending hours in prayer on behalf of others. (He was referred to as "camel-kneed" because of this.)
 
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Livindesert

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Nope, but both still translate to the English word "until". Please provide any English dictionary translation of the world "until" that address anything regarding what occurs after the point in time referenced.


I have proved it three times already. Show me where I am wrong unless you cannot.
 
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Livindesert

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Matthew 1:25 untill=till= heos(something for a period of time)
Matthew 5:18 untill=till= heos(something for a period of time)
Matthew 22:44 untill=till= heos(something for a period of time)

I am right again
 
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Thekla

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Matthew 1:25 untill=till= heos(something for a period of time)
Matthew 5:18 untill=till= heos(something for a period of time)
Matthew 22:44 untill=till= heos(something for a period of time)

I am right again

Where does this say anything about after the period of time ?

And how does the use of ews in Matthew 5:18 and 22:44 accord with (for example) the presented view that 'ews' and 'until' logically demand a reversal of condition :confused: Do the authors of your commentary believe that after the end of time adultery etc. will be permitted by God ?
 
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narnia59

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I have proved it three times already. Show me where I am wrong unless you cannot.
I am assuming from your lack of response that you cannot provide a definition from an English dictionary of the word "until" that supports your claim that by definition the state changes after the point in time referenced.
 
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narnia59

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Matthew 1:25 untill=till= heos(something for a period of time)
Matthew 5:18 untill=till= heos(something for a period of time)
Matthew 22:44 untill=till= heos(something for a period of time)

I am right again
Matthew 22:44
'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." 'http://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/22-44.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-ahttp://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/22-44.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-1

Your position is that the reign of Christ ends at this point?
 
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Livindesert

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Matthew 22:44
'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." '

Your position is that the reign of Christ ends at this point?


Matthew 22:42-46 (New International Version)

42"What do you think about the Christ[a]? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied. 43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." '[b] 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Yes, Jesus rose to the right hand of the father until(a set period of time) the second comming when his enemies will be trampled under his feet. So until again shows a length of time not unlimited time. Check and Mate!
 
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