The word "until"

[Thekla]

how is this evidence that "until" is not used to denote a fixed point and time? unless you show why, it's not evidence at all.

In chapter 5, it should be considered whether the Law is an expression of the will of God for mankind, and if that will changes after the end of time.

In chapter 22, it should be considered whether after the end of time, Christ will no longer have the same relationship re: God the Father (given the core meaning of "sit at the right hand").

 

[Livindesert]

Can someone show where the word ἕως used as a conjunction and rendered as "until" or "til" not used to denote an expiring condition? Lets keep it simple and just compare the usages in Matthew.

*bump*

 

[Livindesert]

how is this evidence that "until" is not used to denote a fixed point and time? unless you show why, it's not evidence at all.

QFT

 

[shinbits]

Again, your supposition is inconsistent with both the Greek and Semitic usage.

As before, "adelphos/adelphi" have as their range a male origin - bilogical, metaphoric, spiritual, or (I forgot to include) legal. The terms reference a common father (not mother).

So, cousins are adelphos through a common grandfather. For the uncle/nephew relationship, the common 'father' is further generationally removed.

Mary is said by John to have an adelphi named Mary. What is the relationship of Mary and Mary.

Note that Gabriel, when adressing Joseph, refers to Mary as the "Child's mother", not Joseph's wife.

The use of the term adelphos is not evidence of Mary having other children. It indicates that Jesus and the adelphos/adelphi shared a common bilogical or legal male progenitor or head of household.

this word is also used to denote males from the same parents, right?

 

[shinbits]

In chapter 5, it should be considered whether the Law is an expression of the will of God for mankind, and if that will changes after the end of time.

In chapter 22, it should be considered whether after the end of time, Christ will no longer have the same relationship re: God the Father (given the core meaning of "sit at the right hand").

1) In chapter 5 and 22 of what? Matthew?
2) You still haven't shown any evidence. You're still speculating things.

 

[Thekla]

1) In chapter 5 and 22 of what? Matthew?
2) You still haven't shown any evidence. You're still speculating things.

I am unclear on what you mean; could you explain what I am speculating ?

 

[Thekla]

this word is also used to denote males from the same parents, right?

Yes, as the father (male) is the same biologically or by adoption.
So, Herod and his "adelphos" are - though born of different mothers - as much adelphos as if they had the same mother also.

 

[Livindesert]

Matthew 5:18 (English Standard Version)

18For truly, I say to you,(A) until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Actually this proves Mary probably had sex since heaven and earth will pass away Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

 

[Livindesert]

Matthew 22:42-46 (New International Version)


42"What do you think about the Christ[a]? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied. 43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." '[b] 45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Again Jesus rose to the right hand of the father until the second comming when his enemies will be trampled under his feet. So until again shows a length of time not unlimited time.

 

[seashale76]

There are theological reasons for why Mary remained a virgin. The Theotokos is holy and she gave birth to Christ. Who we say that she is has everything to do with who we say Christ is. I'll say it again because the significance of the event is obviously lost to many here: Mary gave birth to Christ our God. Should she have taken what was consecrated to God and made holy by Him and profane it by indulging in earthly passions just to make modern man feel better about his own lack of holiness? I think not.

I'll now repost two other posts of mine from this board that are related to this topic:

Tradition has held that Joseph was quite an elderly man, for one. Even pre-Reformation Christmas/Nativity carols attest to it. Iconography also has always depicted Joseph as an old man.

Actually, I don't think there was ever a group of folks pre-Reformation- other than those of an anti-Christ and anti-Christian rabble rousing bent- that claimed the Theotokos ever bore anyone other than Christ. The intent of such claims being to discredit the entire idea of a virgin birth and Christ being fully God and fully man.

I'm going to borrow some phrases (mostly from the Akathist) and wax poetic to try to help you understand. She's the ideal Christian- she is THE human we should look to so as to see what happens when we submit ourselves fully to Christ our God. She is a true handmaid of God. She attained theosis.

She is called the Unwedded Bride.
She gave birth to Christ- she is holy.
Her womb is more spacious than the heavens.
She is the ladder of divine descent.
She gave birth yet remained a virgin.

I'm totally borrowing this because it also explains how we see the Theotokos: ORTHODIXIE ... Southern, Orthodox, Convert, Etc.: Mary, the Mother of God (Theotokos)

Appellations of the Theotokos.

Ark.
The Theotokos is often called an Ark, for the Glory of God settled on her, just as the Glory of God descended on the Mercy Seat of the Old Testament Ark of the Covenant (Ex. 25:10-22).

Aaron's Rod.
Just as Aaron's Rod sprouted miraculously in the Old Testament, so too, the Theotokos has budded forth the Flower of Immortality, Christ our God (Num. 17:1-11).

Burning Bush.
On Mt. Sinai, Moses saw the Bush that was burning, but was not consumed. So too, the Theotokos bore the fire of Divinity, but was not consumed (Ex. 3:1-6).

(Golden) Candlestick.
In the Old Testament Tabernacle, there were found in the Sanctuary golden candlesticks. The Theotokos is the Candlestick which held that Light that illumines the world (Ex. 25:31-40).

(Golden) Censer.
Just as the censer holds a burning coal, so too, the Theotokos held the Living Coal. In the Apocalypse, there stands an Angel before the Throne of God, swinging a censer, representing the prayers of the Saints rising up to God. This is also seen as a symbol of the Theotokos, for it is her prayers that find special favor before her Son.

Cloud.
In the Exodus, the Israelites were led out of Egypt by a Cloud of Light, symbolizing the presence of God in their midst. So too, the Theotokos is a Cloud, bearing God within.

Fleece.
In the book of Judges we read the account of the dew which appeared miraculously on Gideon's fleece (Judges 6:36-40). So too, the Dew Christ, appeared miraculously on the Living Fleece the Theotokos.

Holy of Holies.
Into the Holy of Holies only the High Priest could enter. So too, the Theotokos is the Holy of Holies into which only the Eternal High Priest Christ entered (Heb. 9:1-7).

Ladder.
In a dream Jacob saw a ladder ascending to Heaven, with Angels ascending and descending on it. The Theotokos is a Ladder, stretching from earth to Heaven, for on It God descended to man, having become incarnate.

Mountain (from which a Stone was cut not by hand of man).
The Prophet Daniel saw a mountain, from which was cut a stone, not by the hand of man (Dan. 2:34, 45). This is a reference to the miraculous Virgin Birth which was accomplished without the hand of man.

Palace.
The Theotokos was the Palace within which the King Christ our God dwelt.

Pot.
[See Urn]

Stem of Jesse.
In the Nativity Service, the Lord is referred to as the Rod from the Stem of Jesse (Is. 11:1), indicating His lineage from David, which was fulfilled through the Theotokos, who was a scion (or stem) of the line of David, the son of Jesse.

Tabernacle.
The Tabernacle was the place where the Glory of God dwelt. So too, the Glory of God dwelt in the Theotokos the Living Tabernacle (Ex. 40:34).

(Holy) Table.
This refers to the Holy Table (Altar Table) on which, at the Divine Liturgy, the Divine Food is offered. So too, the Theotokos is the Holy Table which bore the Bread of Life.

Temple.
The Prophet Ezekiel speaks of the Temple whose East gate remains sealed, through which only the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered. This clearly prophesies the Virgin Birth of the Theotokos (Ez. 44:1-2).

Throne.
The Theotokos is the Throne upon which Christ, the King of All, rested.

(Golden) Urn.
In the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant contained within itself a golden urn filled with the heavenly manna. The Theotokos is the Urn which contained Christ, the Divine Manna (Heb. 9:1-7).

Vine.
The Theotokos is the Vine which bore the Ripe Cluster (of Grapes), Christ our Lord.

 

[Thekla]

Actually this proves Mary probably had sex since heaven and earth will pass away Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Where ews has limit, it is the limit of the period of time referenced. As in English, there is no reference to what happens thereafter. Thus, only the span of time referenced can be spoken of with assurance, and nothing can be said with any surety of what comes after the referenced span.

In this case, your example, one must consider whether the Law is entirely a legal entity or the will of God for mankind expressed in created time in the form of limitations to encourage godliness. In this sense, if it is the latter, the Law is not legalism (as the Pharisees had it) but as Christ expressed it - love. The love that is of God is not ephemeral, because God is love (as John professed). Will the love that is of God pass away ?

 

[shinbits]

I am unclear on what you mean; could you explain what I am speculating ?

I mean explain yourself clearly, and show some actual Biblical evidence. You've done niether.

 

[shinbits]

Yes, as the father (male) is the same biologically or by adoption.
So, Herod and his "adelphos" are - though born of different mothers - as much adelphos as if they had the same mother also.

And there's no indication that "adelphos" means anything other than family relation, in the texts that speak of Jesus' brothers, that have been brought up.

 

[Thekla]

And there's no indication that "adelphos" means anything other than family relation, in the texts that speak of Jesus' brothers, that have been brought up.

There is no indication of what is the particular relationship of the adelphos in these passages.( Nor does the NT identify the particular relationship of Herod and his adelphos; the facts of the meaning of adelphos in this case are known through history, not scripture.)

There is a semantic and cultural dissimilarity between the meaning and usage of adelphos and the present meaning of brother.

 

[shinbits]

There are theological reasons for why Mary remained a virgin.

But no Biblical reasons.

The Theotokos is holy and she gave birth to Christ. Who we say that she is has everything to do with who we say Christ is. I'll say it again because the significance of the event is obviously lost to many here: Mary gave birth to Christ our God. Should she have taken what was consecrated to God and made holy by Him and profane it by indulging in earthly passions just to make modern man feel better about his own lack of holiness? I think not.

Except that indulging in sex doesn't equal any lack of holiness:

Heb 13:4 (American King James Version) "Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled".

She is called the Unwedded Bride.

But she was married.

Her womb is more spacious than the heavens.

She has a large uterus?

She gave birth yet remained a virgin.

No Biblical evidence of such.

for it is her prayers that find special favor before her Son.

"For there is no respect of persons with God," (Rom. 2: 11).


Let me say this: if Mary being an ever-virgin and everything else is something you believe, so be it; I can't change your mind. But I think it would be beneficial if you're at least honest about the fact that there's no Biblical evidence for much of it. In fact, a plain and clear reading of the
Bible contradicts much of it.

Still, you were very civil in your response, and show a very Christ-like manner in your gentleness. Peace to you.

 

[Thekla]

I mean explain yourself clearly, and show some actual Biblical evidence. You've done niether.

Biblical evidence of what ? I have explained my understanding in another post; it is left to you to identify what you either disagree with or find lacking. I cannot guess this.

To quote my previous post:

In this case, your example, one must consider whether the Law is entirely a legal entity or the will of God for mankind expressed in created time in the form of limitations to encourage godliness. In this sense, if it is the latter, the Law is not legalism (as the Pharisees had it) but as Christ expressed it - love. The love that is of God is not ephemeral, because God is love (as John professed). Will the love that is of God pass away ?

 

[shinbits]

Biblical evidence of what ?

1) That Mary never had sex
2) That Mary never had other children
3) That the Bible doesn't mean "adelphos" in the sense of having the same parents in the texts discussed
4) That the word "until" doesn't denote a specific point in time as far as Mary having sex

Provide Biblical evidence of all or any of these. So far, all that's been given is "this doesn't necessarily mean that, though it could". That's not evidence, that's just speculation.

I hope I made this clear enough.

 

[Thekla]

1) That Mary never had sex
2) That Mary never had other children
3) That the Bible doesn't mean "adelphos" in the sense of having the same parents in the texts discussed
4) That the word "until" doesn't denote a specific point in time as far as Mary having sex

Provide Biblical evidence of all or any of these. So far, all that's been given is "this doesn't necessarily mean that, though it could". That's not evidence, that's just speculation.

I hope I made this clear enough.

The NT is silent on the particulars. It never states that Joseph and Mary married. We can thus only know, Biblically, that they were betrothed. To go beyond what the NT states includes the insistence that Mary and Joseph married and had children.

 

[visionary]

The marriage is not truly a marriage until concumation. Joseph and Mary needed to consumate the marriage. Jospeh waited until after the birth, not Mary.

 

[Thekla]

The marriage is not truly a marriage until concumation. Joseph and Mary needed to consumate the marriage. Jospeh waited until after the birth, not Mary.

The NT never states that they married. There is no Biblical record of any 'legal' relationship beyond betrothal.
(In fact, at the time of the flight to Egypt, when speaking to Joseph, the angel refers to Mary as "the child's mother" not "your wife".)
Absent any reference to their marriage, assuming a consummation is unscriptural as well.