The Word of God.

[charsan]

Yes Jesus is The Word.
Yes the scriptures are the word which becomes the Word when He speaks through it.

What then is the Word He promises in Is 30

20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, yet your Teacher will not hide himself anymore, but your eyes shall see your Teacher. 21 And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left.

Is this not His word to us directly as we walk in His way as His sheep hearing His voice?

No, I believe there is only one Word of God and that is Christ. The Scriptures could be said to be words from God

 

[Carl Emerson]

So is Isaiah 30:20 referring to Words spoken directly from Jesus to the individual believer, in the same way as His sheep are promised to hear His voice?

 

[charsan]

No, the Scriptures are inspired not directly written by God. I do appreciate you sharing your ideas even though we disagree

 

[Carl Emerson]

Thanks for that... I suspect you are not quite understanding my questions.

 

[charsan]

I may not be

 

[Carl Emerson]

In exchange for you kind perseverance I will summarise the way I see it.

The Word of God is Jesus who is One with the Father and the Spirit. (Capital W helps understanding but is not in the original manuscripts)

I believe that Jesus was given the Father's name according to John 17. All three act together at all times.

The scripture is the word of God Who has watched over it's accuracy and availability (little w for clarity)

The Word of God has several functions that we know of and doubtless many more:

To hold together all that is in creation.

To bring conviction to all mankind, both believers (through His indwelling presence) and unbelievers (through the evidence of His 'footprint' in creation...)

To bring Life and Truth to the scriptures so that the small w becomes the Capital W in the heart of the hearer.

To speak directly to individuals as promised in both the OT and the NT. e.g. Isiaiah 30:20, John 10:27 (this may or may not be a voice - He certainly does this by planting desires in our hearts)

The reason I opened the thread was to help folks be more aware of His promise to speak to us individually as we walk in The Way, and not just through the reading of scripture. This should be normal but many are missing out on this promise.

The scripture, the word of God, is our roadmap for life and final reference in matters of truth. Of itself, without the Spirit it is dangerous - With the Spirit it is living and dependable.

 

[charsan]

Thank you. This gives me much insight to why evangelicals almost worship the Bible almost as if it is God itself.

 

[Carl Emerson]

On the contrary the letter kills but the spirit gives life... 2 Cor 3:6

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes Jesus is The Word.
Yes the scriptures are the word which becomes the Word when He speaks through it.

What do you mean Scripture "becomes the Word when He speaks through it"?

What then is the Word He promises in Is 30

20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, yet your Teacher will not hide himself anymore, but your eyes shall see your Teacher. 21 And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left.

Is this not His word to us directly as we walk in His way as His sheep hearing His voice?

Earlier the word seems to be a reference to the message of the Prophets to turn back to Torah and away from the faithlessness of idols.

If we understand here by "your Teacher" something messianic, pointing to the coming of the Messiah, Jesus, then the "word" here is probably Christ's teaching.

Contextually, however, it seems to be about the call to Israel toward repentance, away from infidelity and idolatry, and to return back to way of God given to them through Torah. So the word they hear "This is the way, walk in it" is the prophetic call to ancient Israel to return to Torah.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

So is Isaiah 30:20 referring to Words spoken directly from Jesus to the individual believer, in the same way as His sheep are promised to hear His voice?

There's no reason to believe this is the case based on the text.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

What do you mean Scripture "becomes the Word when He speaks through it"?



Earlier the word seems to be a reference to the message of the Prophets to turn back to Torah and away from the faithlessness of idols.

If we understand here by "your Teacher" something messianic, pointing to the coming of the Messiah, Jesus, then the "word" here is probably Christ's teaching.

Contextually, however, it seems to be about the call to Israel toward repentance, away from infidelity and idolatry, and to return back to way of God given to them through Torah. So the word they hear "This is the way, walk in it" is the prophetic call to ancient Israel to return to Torah.

-CryptoLutheran

The truth of scripture to be fruitful needs to be spiritually discerned, the Holy Spirit opens the eyes of our understanding as we read. There are plenty of 'bible based' sects and cults that preach a different gospel because they listen to mans interpretation of His word, rather than the Holy Spirit. Obvious example Jehovah Witnesses and the seven volumes of Russell.

Ate you claiming that the Holy Spirit within us does not lead us into all truth?

Are you claiming that His sheep do not hear His voice?

 

[ViaCrucis]

The truth of scripture to be fruitful needs to be spiritually discerned, the Holy Spirit opens the eyes of our understanding as we read. There are plenty of 'bible based' sects and cults that preach a different gospel because they listen to mans interpretation of His word, rather than the Holy Spirit. Obvious example Jehovah Witnesses and the seven volumes of Russell.

Ate you claiming that the Holy Spirit within us does not lead us into all truth?

Corporately, not individually. I believe Christ's promise that His Church will always prevail, even against the doors of Hades, means that, ultimately, the Spirit preserves the Church throughout the ages. That doesn't mean errors don't creep in and thus there is need for reform; I don't believe in ecclesiastical infallibility, I do believe that when Christ said that the Spirit would lead the Apostles to all truth, that He gave to them the safeguard that their teaching and preaching would be guided by the Spirit, and so if we hold fast to what the Apostles gave us then we are likewise being guided by the Spirit.

There's nothing that says each individual Christian is guaranteed to be led to "all truth" by the Spirit.

Are you claiming that His sheep do not hear His voice?

Obviously we have, that's why we believe. The Gospel went forth, from Jerusalem to all nations, and we have heard it, believed it, and by the will and work of God we have, from the Spirit, faith and hope in Jesus Christ by His solemn faithful word to us.

If you mean does Jesus speak to us individually, there's nothing that says that either.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

Thanks for your time and patience responding, you have represented your particular theological position very well.

In the mean time I have enjoyed His inner voice personally - He did not take up residence within me to be silent.

I have seen too much to doubt His living Word within me.

I am one of the sheep who hear His voice as promised.

 

[Radagast]

There are plenty of 'bible based' sects and cults that preach a different gospel because they listen to mans interpretation of His word, rather than the Holy Spirit.

Throughout history, the worst errors and heresies have been from those who thought that the spirit they were listening to was the Holy Spirit.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Correct. What Spirit do you listen to?

 

[Radagast]

Correct. What Spirit do you listen to?

The Third Person of the Trinity.

How about you?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Same

 

[Erik Nelson]

Not just clunky, but actually deceptive, in that specific Greek rules about articles are in play here, and the "translation" has swapped subject and predicate (in English the first noun is the subject, and in Greek the one with the article is).



Exactly.

I'm getting a little sick of people who think you can just replace every Greek word by what they think is an English equivalent, ignoring all grammar rules, and somehow get something meaningful. Translation doesn't work that way.

nothing can be deceptive which is completely transparent

nobody is confused about my wooden literal word for word translation, nor about its amateur and inexpert origin

the article is crucial in the second clause

you could cite a source justifying your claim that the third really should be rearranged to

"and... The Word... was God"

but the second has articles on both nouns, so which one is subject versus predicate?

and the fact remains, there is a subtle, nuanced but Divinely important distinction between

"God" and "the God"

the former refers to the Divine essence, whereas the other refers to the Person of the Father

the Word is a distinct Person, of the same Essence

what most confuses people in actual practice is that distinction between the Divine Person of the Father, and the Divinity of Essence of the Godhead which is generated by the Father

muddling the monarchy of the Father muddles the monotheism of Christianity, which actually is a major issue globally these days

 

[Radagast]

you could cite a source justifying your claim that the third really should be rearranged to

"and... The Word... was God"

Because in Greek sentences of the form A is B, the article marks the subject, which can be A or B. Check any grammar book. In English sentences, the subject is always first.

but the second has articles on both nouns, so which one is subject versus predicate?

That clause is a different kind of clause. The predicate is the prepositional subclause.