The way of salvation

James_Lai · Nov 29, 2021

Clare73 said:
You love Jesus Christ but you do not believe in him as he requires?
Then how can you say you love him?

If I love Him with all my heart, why can’t I say so? It’s absolutely sincere and true. I do believe in Him, that He existed and taught people great moral teachings, and strive to follow those teachings, though it’s pretty darn hard... Can you explain what believing in Him means for you?

Just to give an example, the other day I was very upset with my child. Then I was praying, asking God to help with something really important for me. At that moment I remembered that Jesus taught, if you want to approach God in prayer, you first have to forgive people and to reconcile conflicts… Or that if you condemn anybody self-righteousely, think of your own sins before casting the first stone… I felt quite convicted. Honestly, it was a hard struggle… Ashamed to say, I could not overcome my feelings and did lecture stirnly the child afterwards… Next day I realized how petty it was and that I was wrong in that particular situation… Truly not an easy path!

James_Lai · Nov 29, 2021

Clare73 said:
Jesus cleared that up regarding Hades in his parable of Luke 16:22-24.

As the OT is not the authority for law keeping in the NT, so it is not the authority for the after life,
Jesus having corrected the OT in Mark 12:26-27, where he shows that God declared to Moses some 500 years later, "I am (present tense, not past tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead, but the living. You are badly mistaken."
He is (not "was" 500 years later) the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob because their spirits are still living.
However, the OT is only partial revelation.
God's completed revelation is the NT, and it is the authority for the Christian faith,
The NT alters and completes some of the OT revelation.

Not all mixed up. . .the NT is God's completed revelation, and the authority for the Christian faith.

First of all, try just sticking to the Biblical text and stop mixing all the Egyptian/Zoroastrian/Greek stuff with it, or worse yet, considering them the light by which you understand Scripture.

Secondly, the OT is to be understood in the light of the NT, which gives its true meaning.
Don't be scrambling it all together.

"Immortal soul, judgement, eternal hell and heavenly paradise of eternal bliss and reward" are NT revelation from Jesus himself, not given in the OT.
And that's "immortal spirit."

It seems you still have some decisions to make regarding Jesus' claims that he
came down from heaven (John 3:13, 6:32-33, 38, 41-42, 50-51, 58, 62),
to speak for God (John 7:16, 8:25-28, 12:44-45, 49-50, 14:10; Luke 9:35, 10:16)
possessing all authority (power) in heaven and earth (Matthew 26:64; Luke 10:22; John 13:3, 13).

Not according to Jesus in Luke 16.

Name it, and let's see what can be done.

The historic Creeds do just that.

About Mark 12:26-27, since Jesus is proving the concept of future resurrection, to me it does not necessarily mean their souls/spirits were living at the time God was speaking to Moses from the bush. The idea seems to me from the context is, they will be once living again, won’t stay dead forever.

Basil the Great · Nov 29, 2021

hedrick said:
It helps nothing to tell answer questions with condemnation.The Bible, even the NT, in fact does not give a simple formula for salvation. It's not simple to reconcile Jesus with Paul on this question.

Very true. It is definitely not easy to reconcile Jesus with Paul on this question. Jesus emphasized loving God and our neighbor as the way to get to Heaven. Paul emphasized faith in Jesus. It is amazing to me that so many Christians try and simplify what in the end is a decision left only to God. We have guideposts as to how to get to Heaven. Yes, absolutely we do. However, only God decides the eternal fate of every human soul.

Basil the Great · Nov 29, 2021

James_Lai said:
Well, if we don’t think the Bible is infallible and also use other sources, what would be the answer to the OP?

If you don’t think one can be sure in this matter, then what are your thoughts on the subject?

One answer to the OP is that Jesus taught that if we want to get to Heaven, we must love the Lord our God and love our neighbor. If you want to tell him that Paul taught that faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation and that everyone who fails to have said faith will go to Hell, you are free to do so.

James_Lai · Nov 29, 2021

Andrewn said:
I will comment on your post and you will get comments from other members. My position is non-Calvinist. In approaching the OT, we keep in mind a) that a lot of passages are not to be understood literally, and b) that revelation of truths is gradual throughout history. So, the OT teaching of death being the final destruction of the soul is no longer valid. In fact, even Rabbinic Jews no longer believe this.

After resurrection of the body, the evil souls who end up in Gehenna / lake of fire face what I described in previous messages as the second death to avoid getting into details. But here are the 3 common views about this:

1) Due to their rejection of God, those souls choose to be separate from Him and face a tormenting hell.

2) Because God is omnipresent, those souls will actually be in his presence but due to their rejection of God, they will experience Him as tormenting fire.

3) Since evil is non-being, the wicked are annihilated, they cease to exist.

All these view exist side-by-side and there is no need to dwell on them because the object here is to love God and to have eternal life in his presence:

Joh 17:3 Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

I agree.

As I mentioned above, we believe in progressive revelation but ultimately in the NT revelation. God's revelation is not limited.

Hades is a temporary station for the spirits which are not ready to enter Paradise. The OT belief that it is a state of unconsciousness is upheld by a couple of "marginal" Christian sects. The common Christian belief based mainly on Mark 12:26-27 and Luke chapter 16 is that it is divided into 3 sections and that the spirits in Hades are conscious.

This said, our focus should really be on loving God, trusting in Divine providence, caring for others, and caring for the environment.

The rich man and Lazarus :

not sure we’d like to open this can of worms

Well, i think it’s the only place in the NT that can be taken to teach eternal punishment immediately postmortem, which became a standard Christian doctrine… Some (including Luther) consider the parable entirely allegorical.

I believe this parable probably wasn’t taught by the historic Jesus. It contradicts everything else taught by Jesus and Paul, and even Revelations.

It seems to be a re-telling of an ancient Egyptian parable of Setne and his son Si-Osire. In the Egyptian version, which is very similar to Luke 16:19-31, the reason for punishment of the reach man is wickedness, and reason for reward of the beggar is righteousness. In Luke’s version, reasons aren’t given explicitly, but it could be either lack of compassion on the rich man’s end (didn’t listen to Moses and the Prophets, Leviticus 19:18) or the sheer fact of being rich/poor. In Luke’s beatitudes, unlike in Matthew, blessed are the poor, and blessed are the hungry (not the poor in spirit or the hungry for righteousness). Also in Luke we are to collect treasures in heaven (12:33) and “no one who does not give up all his possessions can be my disciple” (14:33)

The ending of the parable appears to be a dead give away it was a later addition… If somebody is raised from the dead and witnesses, not going to listen… Similar point stressed by Apostles preaching in Acts 2-3. For Luke, turning to God is not only a mental assent, the rich people need to give away their wealth to help the poor.

As for borrowing parables, it was a common practice in the ancient near East and beyond. Like the timeless genius of Indian Panchatantra (five treatises) borrowed by Esop, La Fontain, Krylov etc… Or Shakespeare borrowing some of his play stories like Romeo and Juliet from earlier French authors. Adapting and re-purposing stories was and still is commonplace.

James_Lai · Nov 29, 2021

Basil the Great said:
Very true. It is definitely not easy to reconcile Jesus with Paul on this question. Jesus emphasized loving God and our neighbor as the way to get to Heaven. Paul emphasized faith in Jesus. It is amazing to me that so many Christians try and simplify what in the end is a decision left only to God. We have guideposts as to how to get to Heaven. Yes, absolutely we do. However, only God decides the eternal fate of every human soul.

I understand…

James_Lai · Nov 29, 2021

Basil the Great said:
One answer to the OP is that Jesus taught that if we want to get to Heaven, we must love the Lord our God and love our neighbor. If you want to tell him that Paul taught that faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation and that everyone who fails to have said faith will go to Hell, you are free to do so.

Similar in Islam, there’s those who say Allah accepts all those who do good in their life, no matter what, but there are those (probably a majority) who say only Muslims (or Muslims of a certain kind) go to Jannah, the rest are all kafirs are Jahannam-bound…

Basil the Great · Nov 30, 2021

James_Lai said:
Similar in Islam, there’s those who say Allah accepts all those who do good in their life, no matter what, but there are those (probably a majority) who say only Muslims (or Muslims of a certain kind) go to Jannah, the rest are all kafirs are Jahannam-bound…

Yes, I have heard the Koran teaches that Jews and Christians are "people of the Book" and therefore can go to Heaven. I have also heard that this teaching is early in the Koran and that later verses are the ones that teach Islam is the only road to salvation, thereby implying that perhaps Muhammad changed his mind on the subject?

Regardless, I think it prudent to point out that the major religions of the world: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism, all profess a belief in the afterlife and all teach that our actions in this life will impact what happens to us in the afterlife. Judaism by the way teaches that all men and women who abide by the Noahide laws will have a place in Heaven, regardless of their religious affiliation.

Basil the Great · Nov 30, 2021

James_Lai said:
The rich man and Lazarus :

not sure we’d like to open this can of worms

Well, i think it’s the only place in the NT that can be taken to teach eternal punishment immediately postmortem, which became a standard Christian doctrine… Some (including Luther) consider the parable entirely allegorical.

I believe this parable probably wasn’t taught by the historic Jesus. It contradicts everything else taught by Jesus and Paul, and even Revelations.

It seems to be a re-telling of an ancient Egyptian parable of Setne and his son Si-Osire. In the Egyptian version, which is very similar to Luke 16:19-31, the reason for punishment of the reach man is wickedness, and reason for reward of the beggar is righteousness. In Luke’s version, reasons aren’t given explicitly, but it could be either lack of compassion on the rich man’s end (didn’t listen to Moses and the Prophets, Leviticus 19:18) or the sheer fact of being rich/poor. In Luke’s beatitudes, unlike in Matthew, blessed are the poor, and blessed are the hungry (not the poor in spirit or the hungry for righteousness). Also in Luke we are to collect treasures in heaven (12:33) and “no one who does not give up all his possessions can be my disciple” (14:33)

The ending of the parable appears to be a dead give away it was a later addition… If somebody is raised from the dead and witnesses, not going to listen… Similar point stressed by Apostles preaching in Acts 2-3. For Luke, turning to God is not only a mental assent, the rich people need to give away their wealth to help the poor.

As for borrowing parables, it was a common practice in the ancient near East and beyond. Like the timeless genius of Indian Panchatantra (five treatises) borrowed by Esop, La Fontain, Krylov etc… Or Shakespeare borrowing some of his play stories like Romeo and Juliet from earlier French authors. Adapting and re-purposing stories was and still is commonplace.

There is little doubt that the majority of Christians believe in eternal punishment. However, even the Early Church Father Augustine admitted that many in his day did not accept said doctrine. My guess is that the percentage of Christians who are firmly convinced of the teaching has dropped in recent decades.

Andrewn · Nov 30, 2021

James_Lai said:
The rich man and Lazarus: not sure we’d like to open this can of worms

What is the rational mind for if not for opening cans of worms?

James_Lai said:
Well, i think it’s the only place in the NT that can be taken to teach eternal punishment immediately postmortem, which became a standard Christian doctrine…

This is not the only occasion in which the Lord used the word Hades (or probably the Aramaic / Hebrew equivalent "Sheol"). I take the word "eternal" to mean "belonging to eternity" or "otherworldly", the opposite of "temporal." If this is also how you understand it, then yes this parable teaches about otherworldly punishment immediately postmortem.

James_Lai said:
Some (including Luther) consider the parable entirely allegorical.

Luther apparently was not sure whether the rational soul / spirit was conscious or unconscious in the intermediate state / Hades. With the exception of SDA's and JW's, most Christians believe it is conscious. The Lord Jesus promised the crucified thief, "Today, you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luk 24:43). And He preached to the spirits in Hades, which must have been conscious (1Pe 3:18-19). And St Paul said, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2Co 5:8). And in Revelation we read, "Next, I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given the authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for bearing witness to Jesus and the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" (Rev 20:4).

The difficulty that SDA's and JW's have is perhaps in distinguishing the soul as a life-force (perhaps equivalent to Chinese "qi" or "po") from the rational soul (perhaps equivalent to Chinese "shen" or "hun") but I'm not an expert on Chinese! You can be a Christian and believe in "soul sleep." But you would be wrong .

James_Lai said:
I believe this parable probably wasn’t taught by the historic Jesus. It contradicts everything else taught by Jesus and Paul, and even Revelations. It seems to be a re-telling of an ancient Egyptian parable of Setne and his son Si-Osire.

That Hades consisted of different compartments was a common belief among Egyptians, Greeks and Romans, and Jews in the inter-testament period. Otherwise, the Egyptian story tells about a magician called Si-Osire who could read unopened books and is quite different from the moral lesson in the story of Dives and Lazarus. I don't see how the latter contradicts everything else taught by Jesus and Paul, except from an SDA & JW view.

James_Lai said:
In Luke’s version, reasons aren’t given explicitly, but it could be either lack of compassion on the rich man’s end (didn’t listen to Moses and the Prophets, Leviticus 19:18) or the sheer fact of being rich/poor. In Luke’s beatitudes, unlike in Matthew, blessed are the poor, and blessed are the hungry (not the poor in spirit or the hungry for righteousness). Also in Luke we are to collect treasures in heaven (12:33) and “no one who does not give up all his possessions can be my disciple” (14:33) The ending of the parable appears to be a dead give away it was a later addition…

This is a good analysis but also keep in mind that the English word "poor" is deceptive. The Greek word does not only indicates material poverty. The Greek word means "needy" in a broader sense, destitute of wealth, influence, position, honors; lowly, afflicted: lacking in anything, e.g. destitute of the wealth of learning and intellectual culture which the schools afford. (Thayer's Greek Lexicon)

Andrewn · Nov 30, 2021

James_Lai said:
only Muslims (or Muslims of a certain kind) go to Jannah, the rest are all kafirs are Jahannam-bound…

Just for clarification:

Jannah = Garden = Paradise.

Jahannam = Gehenna

Joy · Nov 30, 2021

MOD HAT ON

After Staff Review
This Thread
is Now
Permanently Closed

RV: Statement of Purpose - Exploring Christianity Statement of Purpose

Forum Guidelines - Debating

There are some areas of theology in which different Christians may believe differently. In these situations, we would ask Christians to refrain from debating the matter here. You may point out that there is a differing viewpoint, but please do not use this forum to debate with other Christians. If Christians wish to discuss various doctrines with other Christians, they should do so in one of the Theology forums.

MOD HAT OFF

The way of salvation

James_Lai

Well-Known Member

More options

James_Lai

Well-Known Member

More options

Basil the Great

Well-Known Member

More options

Basil the Great

Well-Known Member

More options

James_Lai

Well-Known Member

More options

James_Lai

Well-Known Member

More options

James_Lai

Well-Known Member

More options

Basil the Great

Well-Known Member

More options

Basil the Great

Well-Known Member

More options

Andrewn

Well-Known Member

More options

Andrewn

Well-Known Member

More options

Joy

John 3:16

More options

Similar threads

The way of salvation

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

John 3:16

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency