The way of salvation

[Basil the Great]

so you are not sure?

It is rather difficult to be sure about such a topic, unless one claims to believe that the Bible is always infallible.

 

[Clare73]

Absolutely. I know the Bible almost by heart. The nature of the Biblical texts is that they’re open to multiple possible interpretations. For example, by vertical and horizontal study of the synoptical Gospels (with some koine Ellinika and Ivrit knowledge), it seems to me that Jesus did not preach a literal hell of eternal torture, but rather annihilation for the wicked. Being thrown into Gehenna or the Valley of Hinnom seems to me to indicate cessation of existence as opposed to being resurrected to glorious life in the coming Kingdom of God.

Jesus cleared that up regarding Hades in his parable of Luke 16:22-24.

Closer to the OT teaching of death being the final destruction of the soul, as a man is the soul.

As the OT is not the authority for law keeping in the NT, so it is not the authority for the after life,
Jesus having corrected the OT in Mark 12:26-27, where he shows that God declared to Moses some 500 years later, "I am (present tense, not past tense) the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead, but the living. You are badly mistaken."
He is (not "was" 500 years later) the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob because their spirits are still living.

I read read read a lot a lot a lot of times and study. I don’t like cut-and-paste approach of taking verses or short passages out of context. That way almost any doctrine can be proposed.

I see different teachings as to the afterlife under the cover of the Bible.

However, the OT is only partial revelation.
God's completed revelation is the NT, and it is the authority for the Christian faith,
The NT alters and completes some of the OT revelation.

The later Egyptian/Zoroastrian/Greek ideas of duality, immortal soul, judgement, eternal hell of torture and heavenly paradise of eternal bliss and reward are an addition to the indigenous Jewish Sheol/Abraham bosom/bodily resurrection to live on the new earth Apocalyptic ideas. All mixed up.

Not all mixed up. . .the NT is God's completed revelation, and the authority for the Christian faith.

First of all, try just sticking to the Biblical text and stop mixing all the Egyptian/Zoroastrian/Greek stuff with it, or worse yet, considering them the light by which you understand Scripture.

Secondly, the OT is to be understood in the light of the NT, which gives its true meaning.
Don't be scrambling it all together.

"Immortal soul, judgement, eternal hell and heavenly paradise of eternal bliss and reward" are NT revelation from Jesus himself, not given in the OT.
And that's "immortal spirit."

It seems you still have some decisions to make regarding Jesus' claims that he
came down from heaven (John 3:13, 6:32-33, 38, 41-42, 50-51, 58, 62),
to speak for God (John 7:16, 8:25-28, 12:44-45, 49-50, 14:10; Luke 9:35, 10:16)
possessing all authority (power) in heaven and earth (Matthew 26:64; Luke 10:22; John 13:3, 13).

H’aidis (Hades) seems to be a different place and is synonymous with a state of sleep, forgetfullness.

Not according to Jesus in Luke 16.

To be thrown into the lake of fire - another act of annihilation, a total destruction once and for all.
I really like to hear what people believe and why, to understand and to see how it really is. A clear presentation, smth similar to a church’s statement of faith, maybe a little more elaborated and detailed on the particular question.

I think it’s okay to ask people about their belief on a crucial doctrine.

Name it, and let's see what can be done.

The historic Creeds do just that.

 

[Andrewn]

For example, by vertical and horizontal study of the synoptical Gospels (with some koine Ellinika and Ivrit knowledge), it seems to me that Jesus did not preach a literal hell of eternal torture, but rather annihilation for the wicked. Being thrown into Gehenna or the Valley of Hinnom seems to me to indicate cessation of existence as opposed to being resurrected to glorious life in the coming Kingdom of God. Closer to the OT teaching of death being the final destruction of the soul, as a man is the soul.

I will comment on your post and you will get comments from other members. My position is non-Calvinist. In approaching the OT, we keep in mind a) that a lot of passages are not to be understood literally, and b) that revelation of truths is gradual throughout history. So, the OT teaching of death being the final destruction of the soul is no longer valid. In fact, even Rabbinic Jews no longer believe this.

After resurrection of the body, the evil souls who end up in Gehenna / lake of fire face what I described in previous messages as the second death to avoid getting into details. But here are the 3 common views about this:

1) Due to their rejection of God, those souls choose to be separate from Him and face a tormenting hell.

2) Because God is omnipresent, those souls will actually be in his presence but due to their rejection of God, they will experience Him as tormenting fire.

3) Since evil is non-being, the wicked are annihilated, they cease to exist.

All these view exist side-by-side and there is no need to dwell on them because the object here is to love God and to have eternal life in his presence:

Joh 17:3 Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

I read read read a lot a lot a lot of times and study. I don’t like cut-and-paste approach of taking verses or short passages out of context. That way almost any doctrine can be proposed.

I agree.

I see different teachings as to the afterlife under the cover of the Bible. The later Egyptian/Zoroastrian/Greek ideas of duality, immortal soul, judgement, eternal hell of torture and heavenly paradise of eternal bliss and reward are an addition to the indigenous Jewish Sheol/Abraham bosom/bodily resurrection to live on the new earth Apocalyptic ideas. All syncretized and progressively developed…

As I mentioned above, we believe in progressive revelation but ultimately in the NT revelation. God's revelation is not limited.

H’aidis (Hades) seems to be a different place and is synonymous with a state of sleep, forgetfulness…

Hades is a temporary station for the spirits which are not ready to enter Paradise. The OT belief that it is a state of unconsciousness is upheld by a couple of "marginal" Christian sects. The common Christian belief based mainly on Mark 12:26-27 and Luke chapter 16 is that it is divided into 3 sections and that the spirits in Hades are conscious.

This said, our focus should really be on loving God, trusting in Divine providence, caring for others, and caring for the environment.

 

[1watchman]

I notice that often readers use the terms "hades" and "hell" interchageable, but one needs to see that HADES is a holding place for the LOST dead; and HELL is the lake of fire, where all lost souls will go along with Satan in the very end after the final thrown judgment --as shown in the book of Revelation. Hell is the end place for lost souls who rejected salvation in Jesus Christ.

 

[hedrick]

John 3:18 (unbelief "condemned already"), John 3:36 ("wrath remains" on unbelief); Romans 5:18 ("condemnation for all men")

Neither of the passages in John say that we start out condemned, just that those who aren’t faithful are condemned. See my comment on faith in Paul. John and Paul seem to have some similarities.

Rom says that death came to everyone from Adam, but eternal life to everyone from Christ. You can’t take the first part without the second. So unless you want to teach universalism, this really doesn’t explain why some are saved but others are not. Rather, this is saying that God’s acceptance of us (justification) doesn’t depend upon our behavior, which on its own would merit death. This is, of course, my point. God starts out by loving everyone. We don’t have to earn his love any more than children have to earn their parents’ love. Of course that way of putting it is more from the Synoptics than Paul.

There is, however, another possibility, which probably fits the passage better. Some interpreters have suggested that for Paul, the primary consequences of universal sin are death, not damnation. A straightforward reading of that section would in fact suggest that Adam’s sin brought physical death, but Christ brought eternal life. In that case 5:18 isn’t talking about final judgement at all, but only physical death. Of course if that’s true, Paul is wrong, since it’s clear that we were never designed to live eternally on this earth, and Adam’s fall is not a historical event, and thus can’t have consequences.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I disagree that my heart is hardened. It’s very soft and open. I’m just trying to understand. I think it’s a simple question and the Bible asks believers to readily answer to anyone asking about their faith with gentleness and respect. Or else maybe you don’t have a clear answer yourself?

Some believers aren’t really sure what they believe in, or have a vague idea about certain matters being more focused on day-to-day practical applications, which is also good.

I disagree. If your heart was open to truth you would have been converted, instead you invite confusion. All that has been presented to you is through the goodness of each belivers heart yet you decide it does not fit your paradigm. Then Go to the source Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This what we all did. Why not you?
All you are doing is using theology as a crutch to not convert. I suspect you may not love Jesus Christ of Nazareth. He is not about theology, He is about truth.
I do hope you find Him .

 

[hedrick]

I disagree. If your heart was open to truth you would have been converted, instead you invite confusion. All that has been presented to you is through the goodness of each belivers heart yet you decide it does not fit your paradigm. Then Go to the source Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This what we all did. Why not you?
All you are doing is using theology as a crutch to not convert. I suspect you may not love Jesus Christ of Nazareth. He is not about theology, He is about truth.
I do hope you find Him .

It helps nothing to tell answer questions with condemnation.The Bible, even the NT, in fact does not give a simple formula for salvation. It's not simple to reconcile Jesus with Paul on this question.

 

[James_Lai]

I disagree. If your heart was open to truth you would have been converted, instead you invite confusion. All that has been presented to you is through the goodness of each belivers heart yet you decide it does not fit your paradigm. Then Go to the source Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This what we all did. Why not you?
All you are doing is using theology as a crutch to not convert. I suspect you may not love Jesus Christ of Nazareth. He is not about theology, He is about truth.
I do hope you find Him .

I’m sorry, but you got a totally wrong idea about me. I’m writing here to learn and to understand. It’s been great communicating with the people here.

I asked a simple question, but you evade answering it, instead writing what you think about me

 

[James_Lai]

Search for the sermon by the late Dr. John R Rice, "How to Come to Jesus?" He offers a simple explanation for "believing" the Gospel.

Thank you, I will

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I’m sorry, but you got a totally wrong idea about me. I’m writing here to learn and to understand. It’s been great communicating with the people here.

I asked a simple question, but you evade answering it, instead writing what you think about me

Well you evade truth. I have read each and every post. I'm sorry to say so. Your understanding will never be elevated until you love Jesus Christ of Nazareth. That is all.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Absolutely. I know the Bible almost by heart. The nature of the Biblical texts is that they’re open to multiple possible interpretations. For example, by vertical and horizontal study of the synoptical Gospels (with a limited knowledge of koine Ellinika, Ivrit and historic/religious/cultural context), it seems to me that Jesus did not preach a literal hell of eternal torture, but rather annihilation for the wicked. Being thrown into Gehenna or the Valley of Hinnom seems to me to indicate cessation of existence as opposed to being resurrected to glorious life in the coming Kingdom of God. Closer to the OT teaching of death being the final destruction of the soul, as a man is the soul.

I read read read a lot a lot a lot of times and study. I don’t like cut-and-paste approach of taking verses or short passages out of context. That way almost any doctrine can be proposed.

I see different teachings as to the afterlife under the cover of the Bible. The later Egyptian/Zoroastrian/Greek ideas of duality, immortal soul, judgement, eternal hell of torture and heavenly paradise of eternal bliss and reward are an addition to the indigenous Jewish Sheol/Abraham bosom/bodily resurrection to live on the new earth Apocalyptic ideas. All syncretized and progressively developed…

H’aidis (Hades) seems to be a different place and is synonymous with a state of sleep, forgetfulness… To be thrown into the lake of fire - another act of annihilation, a total destruction once and for all.

I really like to hear what people believe and why, to understand and to see how it really is. A clear presentation, smth similar to a church’s statement of faith, maybe a little more elaborated and detailed on the particular question.

I think it’s okay to ask people about their belief on a crucial doctrine.

This is exactly what I am speaking of and yet you do not care to listen. No amount of scripture will change a hardened heart. Sorry but you have exasperated me.

 

[James_Lai]

Jesus seems to use the word in two ways, though they’re related:

• When someone turns from being opposed to God’s will to following him, Jesus says things like “salvation has come to this house.”
• Jesus often uses it to refer to “final salvation,” i.e. someone being accepted in the judgement.

He doesn’t use it in the sense many Christians do, a current state: “Are you saved?” For that Jesus speaks of being his follow, and Paul of being justified.

Jesus does actually answer your question directly. Unfortunately no major Christian tradition finds his answer acceptable. He points to the commandments. In context that seem to mean the 10 commandments, though elsewhere he summarizes the commandments as loving God and neighbor.

This answer is unacceptable to Protestants because it sounds like earning your way to salvation, whereas we think salvation is an undeserved gift. That problem can be at least partially dealt with by noting that Jesus also emphasizes God’s love for us and his willingness to forgive, and on our side, repentance. Surely he didn’t mean that we earn God’s love by perfect obedience, since humility and repentance wouldn’t be needed in that case.

A lot of traditional theology, particularly in the West, seems to say that we start out damned, because of original sin, and have to do something to get out of that. Maybe it’s baptism. Maybe it’s faith in Christ. I don’t see that in Jesus’ teaching, and not even in Paul (people find it there but I think they’re reading it into the text). We’re God’s children. We don’t have to earn his love.

But as his children, loved and forgiven, there’s still an expectation that we’ll act as his children. Jesus is not shy in talking about judgement, though given the 1st Cent context of the language he used, much of the punishment he talks about may not last forever, even though hell and its fires are spoken of as eternal. (In 1st Cent Judaism hell was eternal, but most people eventually got out of it.).

I don’t know where the boundary is. Jesus suggests that God won’t give up on anyone easily. But I suspect that there are some who are fundamentally opposed to God and his purposes.

Paul, of course, speaks of faith. But remember that /pistis/ can just as well be translated faithfulness. If you translate it as faith, it’s perhaps an older meaning of faith, as in phrases like “keep faith with.” I think you might be able to unify Paul’s perspective and Jesus’ by suggesting that there’s a sort of fundamental orientation in a person, that there’s a difference between being an imperfect follower and one of the enemy.

I understand… Thank you very much for sharing your view….

 

[Maria Billingsley]

One last word of knowledge...you judge Gods Word according to your understanding. Your understanding is not through His Holy Spirit, it is through your human attempt.

 

[James_Lai]

It helps nothing to tell answer questions with condemnation.The Bible, even the NT, in fact does not give a simple formula for salvation. It's not simple to reconcile Jesus with Paul on this question.

Reconcile is one thing, but even to understand both to start with is my task for now

 

[James_Lai]

Well you evade truth. I have read each and every post. I'm sorry to say so. Your understanding will never be elevated until you love Jesus Christ of Nazareth. That is all.

What is truth in regards to salvation?

I do love Jesus Christ of Nazareth and of the world, why else would I read and study the Bible and be drawn to it? Why would I come to Christian Forums to talk to Christians about the teachings of Jesus Christ?

If you expect me to act as a believer, I’m not and never said otherwise.

 

[James_Lai]

It is rather difficult to be sure about such a topic, unless one claims to believe that the Bible is always infallible.

Well, if we don’t think the Bible is infallible and also use other sources, what would be the answer to the OP?

If you don’t think one can be sure in this matter, then what are your thoughts on the subject?

 

[James_Lai]

This is exactly what I am speaking of and yet you do not care to listen. No amount of scripture will change a hardened heart. Sorry but you have exasperated me.

Your assessment of me is incorrect. I’m seeking. If I share my thoughts, I say it seems to me so, but maybe it’s all wrong, I don’t know. I’m not settled in any opinion.

 

[James_Lai]

One last word of knowledge...you judge Gods Word according to your understanding. Your understanding is not through His Holy Spirit, it is through your human attempt.

I disagree. I think God is helping us all understand Him. At least I really do hope He does. I often pray to Him and ask Him with all my heart to lead me and teach me. I even see me coming here as His way to answer this prayer, because it’s really helped me to understand about God and the Bible a whole lot better.

 

[Clare73]

Neither of the passages in John say that we start out condemned, just that those who aren’t faithful are condemned.

Actually, they do.

Jesus said, "Those who do not believe in God's one and only Son are condemned already." John 3:18

"Believe" there is the verb pisteuo--"to be persuaded of, to place confidence in, to trust, reliance upon."
It is not the noun pistis--"fidelity."

They are condemned already by imputation of Adam's guilt (Romans 5:18), and remain in that condemnation in their unbelief.

The apostle John said, "Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." John 3:36
Same concept, they are under the wrath of God already--"by nature (birth) objects of wrath," Ephesians 2:3--by imputation of Adam's guilt (Romans 5:18), and remain under God's wrath in their unbelief.

And Paul reveals that "the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men." (Romans 5:18)

That's pretty consistent and clear NT witnessing.

See my comment on faith in Paul. John and Paul seem to have some similarities.

Rom says that death came to everyone from Adam, but eternal life to everyone from Christ. You can't take the first part without the second.

Agreed. . .in context of the whole NT, death comes to all in/of Adam, and eternal comes to all in/of Christ.

 

[Clare73]

What is truth in regards to salvation?

I do love Jesus Christ of Nazareth and of the world, why else would I read and study the Bible and be drawn to it? Why would I come to Christian Forums to talk to Christians about the teachings of Jesus Christ?

If you expect me to act as a believer, I’m not and never said otherwise.

You love Jesus Christ but you do not believe in him as he requires?
Then how can you say you love him?