It is rather difficult to be sure about such a topic, unless one claims to believe that the Bible is always infallible.
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It is rather difficult to be sure about such a topic, unless one claims to believe that the Bible is always infallible.so you are not sure?
Jesus cleared that up regarding Hades in his parable of Luke 16:22-24.Absolutely. I know the Bible almost by heart. The nature of the Biblical texts is that they’re open to multiple possible interpretations. For example, by vertical and horizontal study of the synoptical Gospels (with some koine Ellinika and Ivrit knowledge), it seems to me that Jesus did not preach a literal hell of eternal torture, but rather annihilation for the wicked. Being thrown into Gehenna or the Valley of Hinnom seems to me to indicate cessation of existence as opposed to being resurrected to glorious life in the coming Kingdom of God.
As the OT is not the authority for law keeping in the NT, so it is not the authority for the after life,Closer to the OT teaching of death being the final destruction of the soul, as a man is the soul.
However, the OT is only partial revelation.I read read read a lot a lot a lot of times and study. I don’t like cut-and-paste approach of taking verses or short passages out of context. That way almost any doctrine can be proposed.
I see different teachings as to the afterlife under the cover of the Bible.
Not all mixed up. . .the NT is God's completed revelation, and the authority for the Christian faith.The later Egyptian/Zoroastrian/Greek ideas of duality, immortal soul, judgement, eternal hell of torture and heavenly paradise of eternal bliss and reward are an addition to the indigenous Jewish Sheol/Abraham bosom/bodily resurrection to live on the new earth Apocalyptic ideas. All mixed up.
Not according to Jesus in Luke 16.H’aidis (Hades) seems to be a different place and is synonymous with a state of sleep, forgetfullness.
Name it, and let's see what can be done.To be thrown into the lake of fire - another act of annihilation, a total destruction once and for all.
I really like to hear what people believe and why, to understand and to see how it really is. A clear presentation, smth similar to a church’s statement of faith, maybe a little more elaborated and detailed on the particular question.
I think it’s okay to ask people about their belief on a crucial doctrine.
I will comment on your post and you will get comments from other members. My position is non-Calvinist. In approaching the OT, we keep in mind a) that a lot of passages are not to be understood literally, and b) that revelation of truths is gradual throughout history. So, the OT teaching of death being the final destruction of the soul is no longer valid. In fact, even Rabbinic Jews no longer believe this.For example, by vertical and horizontal study of the synoptical Gospels (with some koine Ellinika and Ivrit knowledge), it seems to me that Jesus did not preach a literal hell of eternal torture, but rather annihilation for the wicked. Being thrown into Gehenna or the Valley of Hinnom seems to me to indicate cessation of existence as opposed to being resurrected to glorious life in the coming Kingdom of God. Closer to the OT teaching of death being the final destruction of the soul, as a man is the soul.
I agree.I read read read a lot a lot a lot of times and study. I don’t like cut-and-paste approach of taking verses or short passages out of context. That way almost any doctrine can be proposed.
As I mentioned above, we believe in progressive revelation but ultimately in the NT revelation. God's revelation is not limited.I see different teachings as to the afterlife under the cover of the Bible. The later Egyptian/Zoroastrian/Greek ideas of duality, immortal soul, judgement, eternal hell of torture and heavenly paradise of eternal bliss and reward are an addition to the indigenous Jewish Sheol/Abraham bosom/bodily resurrection to live on the new earth Apocalyptic ideas. All syncretized and progressively developed…
Hades is a temporary station for the spirits which are not ready to enter Paradise. The OT belief that it is a state of unconsciousness is upheld by a couple of "marginal" Christian sects. The common Christian belief based mainly on Mark 12:26-27 and Luke chapter 16 is that it is divided into 3 sections and that the spirits in Hades are conscious.H’aidis (Hades) seems to be a different place and is synonymous with a state of sleep, forgetfulness…
Neither of the passages in John say that we start out condemned, just that those who aren’t faithful are condemned. See my comment on faith in Paul. John and Paul seem to have some similarities.John 3:18 (unbelief "condemned already"), John 3:36 ("wrath remains" on unbelief); Romans 5:18 ("condemnation for all men")
I disagree. If your heart was open to truth you would have been converted, instead you invite confusion. All that has been presented to you is through the goodness of each belivers heart yet you decide it does not fit your paradigm. Then Go to the source Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This what we all did. Why not you?I disagree that my heart is hardened. It’s very soft and open. I’m just trying to understand. I think it’s a simple question and the Bible asks believers to readily answer to anyone asking about their faith with gentleness and respect. Or else maybe you don’t have a clear answer yourself?
Some believers aren’t really sure what they believe in, or have a vague idea about certain matters being more focused on day-to-day practical applications, which is also good.
It helps nothing to tell answer questions with condemnation.The Bible, even the NT, in fact does not give a simple formula for salvation. It's not simple to reconcile Jesus with Paul on this question.I disagree. If your heart was open to truth you would have been converted, instead you invite confusion. All that has been presented to you is through the goodness of each belivers heart yet you decide it does not fit your paradigm. Then Go to the source Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This what we all did. Why not you?
All you are doing is using theology as a crutch to not convert. I suspect you may not love Jesus Christ of Nazareth. He is not about theology, He is about truth.
I do hope you find Him .
I disagree. If your heart was open to truth you would have been converted, instead you invite confusion. All that has been presented to you is through the goodness of each belivers heart yet you decide it does not fit your paradigm. Then Go to the source Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This what we all did. Why not you?
All you are doing is using theology as a crutch to not convert. I suspect you may not love Jesus Christ of Nazareth. He is not about theology, He is about truth.
I do hope you find Him .
Search for the sermon by the late Dr. John R Rice, "How to Come to Jesus?" He offers a simple explanation for "believing" the Gospel.
Well you evade truth. I have read each and every post. I'm sorry to say so. Your understanding will never be elevated until you love Jesus Christ of Nazareth. That is all.I’m sorry, but you got a totally wrong idea about me. I’m writing here to learn and to understand. It’s been great communicating with the people here.
I asked a simple question, but you evade answering it, instead writing what you think about me
This is exactly what I am speaking of and yet you do not care to listen. No amount of scripture will change a hardened heart. Sorry but you have exasperated me.Absolutely. I know the Bible almost by heart. The nature of the Biblical texts is that they’re open to multiple possible interpretations. For example, by vertical and horizontal study of the synoptical Gospels (with a limited knowledge of koine Ellinika, Ivrit and historic/religious/cultural context), it seems to me that Jesus did not preach a literal hell of eternal torture, but rather annihilation for the wicked. Being thrown into Gehenna or the Valley of Hinnom seems to me to indicate cessation of existence as opposed to being resurrected to glorious life in the coming Kingdom of God. Closer to the OT teaching of death being the final destruction of the soul, as a man is the soul.
I read read read a lot a lot a lot of times and study. I don’t like cut-and-paste approach of taking verses or short passages out of context. That way almost any doctrine can be proposed.
I see different teachings as to the afterlife under the cover of the Bible. The later Egyptian/Zoroastrian/Greek ideas of duality, immortal soul, judgement, eternal hell of torture and heavenly paradise of eternal bliss and reward are an addition to the indigenous Jewish Sheol/Abraham bosom/bodily resurrection to live on the new earth Apocalyptic ideas. All syncretized and progressively developed…
H’aidis (Hades) seems to be a different place and is synonymous with a state of sleep, forgetfulness… To be thrown into the lake of fire - another act of annihilation, a total destruction once and for all.
I really like to hear what people believe and why, to understand and to see how it really is. A clear presentation, smth similar to a church’s statement of faith, maybe a little more elaborated and detailed on the particular question.
I think it’s okay to ask people about their belief on a crucial doctrine.
Jesus seems to use the word in two ways, though they’re related:
He doesn’t use it in the sense many Christians do, a current state: “Are you saved?” For that Jesus speaks of being his follow, and Paul of being justified.
- When someone turns from being opposed to God’s will to following him, Jesus says things like “salvation has come to this house.”
- Jesus often uses it to refer to “final salvation,” i.e. someone being accepted in the judgement.
Jesus does actually answer your question directly. Unfortunately no major Christian tradition finds his answer acceptable. He points to the commandments. In context that seem to mean the 10 commandments, though elsewhere he summarizes the commandments as loving God and neighbor.
This answer is unacceptable to Protestants because it sounds like earning your way to salvation, whereas we think salvation is an undeserved gift. That problem can be at least partially dealt with by noting that Jesus also emphasizes God’s love for us and his willingness to forgive, and on our side, repentance. Surely he didn’t mean that we earn God’s love by perfect obedience, since humility and repentance wouldn’t be needed in that case.
A lot of traditional theology, particularly in the West, seems to say that we start out damned, because of original sin, and have to do something to get out of that. Maybe it’s baptism. Maybe it’s faith in Christ. I don’t see that in Jesus’ teaching, and not even in Paul (people find it there but I think they’re reading it into the text). We’re God’s children. We don’t have to earn his love.
But as his children, loved and forgiven, there’s still an expectation that we’ll act as his children. Jesus is not shy in talking about judgement, though given the 1st Cent context of the language he used, much of the punishment he talks about may not last forever, even though hell and its fires are spoken of as eternal. (In 1st Cent Judaism hell was eternal, but most people eventually got out of it.).
I don’t know where the boundary is. Jesus suggests that God won’t give up on anyone easily. But I suspect that there are some who are fundamentally opposed to God and his purposes.
Paul, of course, speaks of faith. But remember that /pistis/ can just as well be translated faithfulness. If you translate it as faith, it’s perhaps an older meaning of faith, as in phrases like “keep faith with.” I think you might be able to unify Paul’s perspective and Jesus’ by suggesting that there’s a sort of fundamental orientation in a person, that there’s a difference between being an imperfect follower and one of the enemy.
It helps nothing to tell answer questions with condemnation.The Bible, even the NT, in fact does not give a simple formula for salvation. It's not simple to reconcile Jesus with Paul on this question.
Well you evade truth. I have read each and every post. I'm sorry to say so. Your understanding will never be elevated until you love Jesus Christ of Nazareth. That is all.
It is rather difficult to be sure about such a topic, unless one claims to believe that the Bible is always infallible.
This is exactly what I am speaking of and yet you do not care to listen. No amount of scripture will change a hardened heart. Sorry but you have exasperated me.
One last word of knowledge...you judge Gods Word according to your understanding. Your understanding is not through His Holy Spirit, it is through your human attempt.
Actually, they do.Neither of the passages in John say that we start out condemned, just that those who aren’t faithful are condemned.
See my comment on faith in Paul. John and Paul seem to have some similarities.
Agreed. . .in context of the whole NT, death comes to all in/of Adam, and eternal comes to all in/of Christ.Rom says that death came to everyone from Adam, but eternal life to everyone from Christ. You can't take the first part without the second.
You love Jesus Christ but you do not believe in him as he requires?What is truth in regards to salvation?
I do love Jesus Christ of Nazareth and of the world, why else would I read and study the Bible and be drawn to it? Why would I come to Christian Forums to talk to Christians about the teachings of Jesus Christ?
If you expect me to act as a believer, I’m not and never said otherwise.
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