The Waldensians and the 2nd Century

[The Liturgist]

Geeze if Apostolic Succession but being "alternative" is that important to you you would be better off just joining a modern Gnostic group like Bishop Hoeller's Ecclesia Gnostica in Los Angeles. While not having a literal Apostolic succession it is much easier to show how the various heretical Gnostic groups have influenced later similar movements leading to the modern age, than these other pseudo historical groups claims, which incidentally sometimes actually claim their roots unwittingly from heretical groups because grabbing at straws for any kind of historical claim ends up trumping "attention to detail" like what a group actually professed and practiced.

Ecclesia Gnostica, Los Angeles, California USA

Actually Bishop Hoeller was ordained by an English Old Catholic bishop who did have apostolic succession according to the definition of St. Augustine of Hippo.*

In fact if I recall he was a member of a group of eccentrics trying to reunify the Western and Eastern churches by being ordained by as many bishops with different lines of succession as possible. H.G. Serapion, Metropolitan of the British Orthodox Church, which after entering communion with the Coptic church decided to break it, but most of his priests and people deserted him, including the influential scholar Fr. Peter Farrington, who I think could be remembered as the foremost Oriental Orthodox theologian and the foremost expert on Christology of our time, certainly the most advanced Christological thinker since the CDF under Pope Benedict XVI, before he became Pope. Farrington formed St. George’s Mission which continues the Oriental Orthodox mission in the UK under Pope Tawadros II.

*Not however according to the definition of the second century St. Cyprian of Carthage, favored by the Eastern churches. Also in embracing Gnosticism he would be considered even by most Western churches as deposed, laicized, excommunicate and anathema. So we should pray for him, because he is a really nice guy who may have made something of a theological mess. I am told most of his congregation consist of people who are into Tarot and have gender identity issues (I suggested a friend** who is a web developer visit a meeting when their website was down, because I find it a useful resource and thought it would be a good client for him).

** Said friend died in July 2020, and his wife a week later. Kyrie eleison and Memory eternal. I am still torn up about it.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

<SNIP>

And I am really very tired of see the division history of ecclesiastical history into “church eras” based on a recent and entirely conjectural interpretation of Revelations.

Yep.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

read to here

 

[ViaCrucis]

According to my notebook

Ephesus Era - Apostolic Era, 12 Apostles, Paul etc.

Smyrna Era - Polycarp (154 AD) and Polycrates (195 AD)

Pergamos Era - Constatine of Mananali (675 AD) Sergius (800 AD); Paulicans (800-900 AD)

Thyatira Era - Peter Debruys; Henry of Lusanne; Peter Waldo (Waldensians)

Sardis Era - John & Dorthy Trask; Theophilus Brabourne; Philip Tandy; John James; Stennett Family; Bampfield Brothers

Philadelphia Era - Herbert W. Armstrong and Splinter Groups

Citation: Where Is the True Church? – and Its Incredible History!

With all due respect, this is just made-up hooey.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Torah Keeper]

Well I do find it interesting that the letter to the church of Smyrna was written while Polycarp was bishop of Smyrna. And he is known for keeping Passover. Polycrates wrote a letter to the bishop of Rome and said the churches of all Asia kept Passover on the 14th.

If you notice in the letter to Smyrna in Revelation, there was no rebuke given. If Polycarp was Judaizing and sinning by keeping Passover, wouldn't Yeshua have rebuked him for it?

 

[The Liturgist]

Well I do find it interesting that the letter to the church of Smyrna was written while Polycarp was bishop of Smyrna. And he is known for keeping Passover. Polycrates wrote a letter to the bishop of Rome and said the churches of all Asia kept Passover on the 14th.

If you notice in the letter to Smyrna in Revelation, there was no rebuke given. If Polycarp was Judaizing and sinning by keeping Passover, wouldn't Yeshua have rebuked him for it?

Firstly, I think your dating is off by about a decade. Secondly, it is an issue of ecclesiastical discipline settled at the Council of Nicaea, which issued a canon ending the practice of Quartodecimianism. My view is that since that Council wrote the creed that defines Christianity, its canons, all 20 of them, should be universally observed, but alas it seems no one does that.

 

[Torah Keeper]

Firstly, I think your dating is off by about a decade. Secondly, it is an issue of ecclesiastical discipline settled at the Council of Nicaea, which issued a canon ending the practice of Quartodecimianism. My view is that since that Council wrote the creed that defines Christianity, its canons, all 20 of them, should be universally observed, but alas it seems no one does that.

What proof do you have that I was off by a decade? The first bishop of Smyrna was Polycarp. If the church of Smyrna didn't exist when Revelation was written, to whom was the letter to Smyrna addressed? This fact strongly verifies a late date for the writing of Revelation. 90's AD is an accurate date. Preterists place Revelation in the 60's or even 40's. Wrong!

As I said, Polycarp kept Passover. The letter to him from Yeshua in Revelation had no rebuke. Polycrates wrote a letter to the bishop of Rome and told him the churches of all Asia kept Passover on the 14th.

The council of Nicea didn't end Passover. The Roman Emperor Constantine moved it to always being on Sunday. This was not a unanimous decision of the bishops, but was a decision of Constantine.

Just because Constantine said that Passover must be on a Sunday, do you do everything Constantine said? Do you keep Sabbath on Sundays as Constantine said? Do you keep Passover (not Easter) on Sunday as Constantine said?

And I see nothing in the Nicene Creed about Passover.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

What proof do you have that I was off by a decade? The first bishop of Smyrna was Polycarp. If the church of Smyrna didn't exist when Revelation was written, to whom was the letter to Smyrna addressed? This fact strongly verifies a late date for the writing of Revelation. 90's AD is an accurate date. Preterists place Revelation in the 60's or even 40's. Wrong!

<SNIP>.

Why so wound-up??

If 90 is an accurate date, and Polycarp was born as it seems he was, in 69 a.d. that would make him 20 years old; likely not the Bishop, but he likely heard it read in the Church.

BTW, Today is the commemoration of St. Polycarp as noted in the old lectionary.

I am a member of a group of very traditional Lutheran Clergy and Laymen called the Societas Sancti Policarpi As our Patron, we joyfully remember is witness today.

St Paul Hamel The Society of Saint Polycarp

 

[The Liturgist]

Just because Constantine said that Passover must be on a Sunday, do you do everything Constantine said? Do you keep Sabbath on Sundays as Constantine said? Do you keep Passover (not Easter) on Sunday as Constantine said?

Yes and yes, because this was not his decision, it was the decision of the Council of Nicaea, upheld by later ecumenical councils, and thus of the Church. Easter and passover are the same, by the way (in most countries the word for Easter is something like Pascha, for example, the Dutch passen).

 

[The Liturgist]

Why so wound-up??

If 90 is an accurate date, and Polycarp was born as it seems he was, in 69 a.d. that would make him 20 years old; likely not the Bishop, but he likely heard it read in the Church.

BTW, Today is the commemoration of St. Polycarp as noted in the old lectionary.

I am a member of a group of very traditional Lutheran Clergy and Laymen called the Societas Sancti Policarpi As our Patron, we joyfully remember is witness today.

St Paul Hamel The Society of Saint Polycarp

Happy St. Polycarp day!

My understanding is that the apostles ordained him as a presbyter; presumably this would be St. John, and perhaps one or more of the Seventy; it was probably decades before he became episkopoi of Smyrna.

It was he who converted and catechized St. Irenaeus of Lyons, who I have a great personal affection for.

 

[The Liturgist]

And I see nothing in the Nicene Creed about Passover.

It’s not in the Creed, it is a related act of the Council known as the Nicene paschalion or computus, which is still in use today in Julian and Revised Julian calendar churches, and with minor modification, in Gregorian calendar churches. I myself prefer to call it a computus, because as a CS major who survived his self-imposed exile from the presbyteriate in a certain mainline Protestant denomination by doing very low level systems programming, ancient methods of computation and computational devices fascinate me.