The Waldensians and the 2nd Century

JSRG

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Did they begin with Waldo or did Waldo join an already existing group?
The evidence indicates they began with Waldo.

While the claim that he just joined an already existing group has been argued by some in the past, and there are a few who still try to advance it in the present, it is as far as I can tell not taken seriously by historians anymore. In The Waldensian Dissent by Gabriel Audisio (originally published 1989 in French, the English translation is from 1999), on page 7 the author says concerning them having a pre-Waldo origin:

"No-one today can subscribe to this point of view either. Such debates are no longer valid; it is now unanimously accepted that the Poor of Lyons date back to the twelfth century."

But one might be wondering why it fell out of favor. What were the arguments raised against it? One work that treats with the subject at some length is "Facts and Documents Illustrative of the History, Doctrine, and Rites of the Ancient Albigenses & Waldenses" by the Anglican priest Samuel Maitland. While its main target is the writings of George Faber--Faber was an advocate of the claim that the Waldensians predated Waldo--the arguments raised by Faber were largely the same as others so it works as well. Indeed, Faber seems to be a favorite of those in the present day who try to argue for the Waldensians going back before Waldo, with at least one of the linked articles trying to argue for Waldensian antiquity citing him repeatedly. Of course, someone may not necessarily be interested in reading a full book on the subject, especially as the book isn't just about the Waldensians alone but a bunch of other things that Maitland is criticizing Faber for.

A shorter examination, and one aimed more specifically at the Waldensians, can be found in the article on Waldensians in the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics as well as the article on Waldensians in the eleventh edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica (if one prefers a simple text version rather than archive.org, it's also available here), in which the problems of the alleged antiquity are discussed.

One issue is that these works I've linked to are a bit dated--Maitland's work is from the mid 19th century and encyclopedias are from the early 20th century--but one should note that the works arguing for a pre-Waldo origin are generally as old or even older. That thesis, after all, was abandoned by historians, as I noted from Audisio at the start of my post, so the main works actually arguing for a pre-Waldo origin are older works to begin with, so in later works that say the Waldensians were founded by Waldo, they don't spend much time feeling the need to rebut arguments few people are still making. Also, anything published past the 1920's is under copyright and thus free access to older sources is more easy online, hence why I could link to those works but could only provide a quote from Audisio.

There is something else that is interesting to note. The Waldensians themselves no longer seem to try to claim to be of greater antiquity than Waldo. Let's take a look at this Waldensian site:
Le origini

This is in Italian, but the opening paragraphs translated into English by Google produces:

The adjective "Waldensian" originates from the story of a merchant from Lyons who lived in the twelfth century who decided, at the end of a profound spiritual crisis, to live the Christian experience following the example of the apostles.

Valdo (probably in the local dialect Valdés) had large passages of the Gospel translated which he read to his friends and, having sold his possessions, lived on alms. In making this decision, he did not intend to rebel against the Church, on the contrary he thought of collaborating in the renewal that in that period was inspired by the reform of Pope Gregory VII.
Instead, he clashed with the hierarchy because, taking inspiration from the Gospel, he exhorted people to live a more authentic faith; that is, he, a layman without studies, did what was due to the clergy.

Expelled from Lyons, he was subsequently excommunicated along with his followers.


So this affirms as 12th century origin of the group. And here is an English Waldensian site:
History

The Waldensian Church originated with the preaching of the merchant Valdo (Waldo of Lyons, from whom the church’s name originates), 1140-1217.

Thus it seems the Waldensians themselves now do not try to claim greater antiquity than that of Waldo.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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Thank you so very much for all the information!
The evidence indicates they began with Waldo.

While the claim that he just joined an already existing group has been argued by some in the past, and there are a few who still try to advance it in the present, it is as far as I can tell not taken seriously by historians anymore. In The Waldensian Dissent by Gabriel Audisio (originally published 1989 in French, the English translation is from 1999), on page 7 the author says concerning them having a pre-Waldo origin:

"No-one today can subscribe to this point of view either. Such debates are no longer valid; it is now unanimously accepted that the Poor of Lyons date back to the twelfth century."

But one might be wondering why it fell out of favor. What were the arguments raised against it? One work that treats with the subject at some length is "Facts and Documents Illustrative of the History, Doctrine, and Rites of the Ancient Albigenses & Waldenses" by the Anglican priest Samuel Maitland. While its main target is the writings of George Faber--Faber was an advocate of the claim that the Waldensians predated Waldo--the arguments raised by Faber were largely the same as others so it works as well. Indeed, Faber seems to be a favorite of those in the present day who try to argue for the Waldensians going back before Waldo, with at least one of the linked articles trying to argue for Waldensian antiquity citing him repeatedly. Of course, someone may not necessarily be interested in reading a full book on the subject, especially as the book isn't just about the Waldensians alone but a bunch of other things that Maitland is criticizing Faber for.

A shorter examination, and one aimed more specifically at the Waldensians, can be found in the article on Waldensians in the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics as well as the article on Waldensians in the eleventh edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica (if one prefers a simple text version rather than archive.org, it's also available here), in which the problems of the alleged antiquity are discussed.

One issue is that these works I've linked to are a bit dated--Maitland's work is from the mid 19th century and encyclopedias are from the early 20th century--but one should note that the works arguing for a pre-Waldo origin are generally as old or even older. That thesis, after all, was abandoned by historians, as I noted from Audisio at the start of my post, so the main works actually arguing for a pre-Waldo origin are older works to begin with, so in later works that say the Waldensians were founded by Waldo, they don't spend much time feeling the need to rebut arguments few people are still making. Also, anything published past the 1920's is under copyright and thus free access to older sources is more easy online, hence why I could link to those works but could only provide a quote from Audisio.

There is something else that is interesting to note. The Waldensians themselves no longer seem to try to claim to be of greater antiquity than Waldo. Let's take a look at this Waldensian site:
Le origini

This is in Italian, but the opening paragraphs translated into English by Google produces:

The adjective "Waldensian" originates from the story of a merchant from Lyons who lived in the twelfth century who decided, at the end of a profound spiritual crisis, to live the Christian experience following the example of the apostles.

Valdo (probably in the local dialect Valdés) had large passages of the Gospel translated which he read to his friends and, having sold his possessions, lived on alms. In making this decision, he did not intend to rebel against the Church, on the contrary he thought of collaborating in the renewal that in that period was inspired by the reform of Pope Gregory VII.
Instead, he clashed with the hierarchy because, taking inspiration from the Gospel, he exhorted people to live a more authentic faith; that is, he, a layman without studies, did what was due to the clergy.

Expelled from Lyons, he was subsequently excommunicated along with his followers.


So this affirms as 12th century origin of the group. And here is an English Waldensian site:
History

The Waldensian Church originated with the preaching of the merchant Valdo (Waldo of Lyons, from whom the church’s name originates), 1140-1217.

Thus it seems the Waldensians themselves now do not try to claim greater antiquity than that of Waldo.
 
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Pioneer3mm

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The evidence indicates they began with Waldo.

While the claim that he just joined an already existing group has been argued by some in the past, and there are a few who still try to advance it in the present, it is as far as I can tell not taken seriously by historians anymore. In The Waldensian Dissent by Gabriel Audisio (originally published 1989 in French, the English translation is from 1999), on page 7 the author says concerning them having a pre-Waldo origin:

"No-one today can subscribe to this point of view either. Such debates are no longer valid; it is now unanimously accepted that the Poor of Lyons date back to the twelfth century."

But one might be wondering why it fell out of favor. What were the arguments raised against it? One work that treats with the subject at some length is "Facts and Documents Illustrative of the History, Doctrine, and Rites of the Ancient Albigenses & Waldenses" by the Anglican priest Samuel Maitland. While its main target is the writings of George Faber--Faber was an advocate of the claim that the Waldensians predated Waldo--the arguments raised by Faber were largely the same as others so it works as well. Indeed, Faber seems to be a favorite of those in the present day who try to argue for the Waldensians going back before Waldo, with at least one of the linked articles trying to argue for Waldensian antiquity citing him repeatedly. Of course, someone may not necessarily be interested in reading a full book on the subject, especially as the book isn't just about the Waldensians alone but a bunch of other things that Maitland is criticizing Faber for.

A shorter examination, and one aimed more specifically at the Waldensians, can be found in the article on Waldensians in the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics as well as the article on Waldensians in the eleventh edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica (if one prefers a simple text version rather than archive.org, it's also available here), in which the problems of the alleged antiquity are discussed.

One issue is that these works I've linked to are a bit dated--Maitland's work is from the mid 19th century and encyclopedias are from the early 20th century--but one should note that the works arguing for a pre-Waldo origin are generally as old or even older. That thesis, after all, was abandoned by historians, as I noted from Audisio at the start of my post, so the main works actually arguing for a pre-Waldo origin are older works to begin with, so in later works that say the Waldensians were founded by Waldo, they don't spend much time feeling the need to rebut arguments few people are still making. Also, anything published past the 1920's is under copyright and thus free access to older sources is more easy online, hence why I could link to those works but could only provide a quote from Audisio.

There is something else that is interesting to note. The Waldensians themselves no longer seem to try to claim to be of greater antiquity than Waldo. Let's take a look at this Waldensian site:
Le origini

This is in Italian, but the opening paragraphs translated into English by Google produces:

The adjective "Waldensian" originates from the story of a merchant from Lyons who lived in the twelfth century who decided, at the end of a profound spiritual crisis, to live the Christian experience following the example of the apostles.

Valdo (probably in the local dialect Valdés) had large passages of the Gospel translated which he read to his friends and, having sold his possessions, lived on alms. In making this decision, he did not intend to rebel against the Church, on the contrary he thought of collaborating in the renewal that in that period was inspired by the reform of Pope Gregory VII.
Instead, he clashed with the hierarchy because, taking inspiration from the Gospel, he exhorted people to live a more authentic faith; that is, he, a layman without studies, did what was due to the clergy.

Expelled from Lyons, he was subsequently excommunicated along with his followers.


So this affirms as 12th century origin of the group. And here is an English Waldensian site:
History

The Waldensian Church originated with the preaching of the merchant Valdo (Waldo of Lyons, from whom the church’s name originates), 1140-1217.

Thus it seems the Waldensians themselves now do not try to claim greater antiquity than that of Waldo.
Good post.
---
Beginning in the 12th century, the Waldensian movement
was..an early forerunner of the Protestant Reformation.
---
Interesting topic to study/read..
- One of the 'movements' in Christian history.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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Of special interest to me, is how aestheticism(sp?) influenced Waldo and his followers.
Good post.
---
Beginning in the 12th century, the Waldensian movement
was..an early forerunner of the Protestant Reformation.
---
Interesting topic to study/read..
- One of the 'movements' in Christian history.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I have read quite a lot about the Waldensians and I do not believe that their origin can be traced back to the 2nd century.
Goes back way farther than that; ancient aliens (I heard all about it while I had on my tin-foil hat with antennae.) Waldo had one, so did Hus... and Luther too. Ancient aliens are real; they are on the history channel!!!
tinfoil_hat_antenna.jpg
 
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The Liturgist

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Thatgirloncfforums

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I have heard of some Evangelicals trying to tie the Waldensians to the early centuries of the Church. I have not heard of Rome claiming such.
Right. They haven't. I just wanted to see if there was a legit alternative history out there. There isn't. My curiosity is satisfied.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I have heard of some Evangelicals trying to tie the Waldensians to the early centuries of the Church. I have not heard of Rome claiming such.
If 1200 for Waldo and 1400 for Hus are "early centuries" maybe. LOL
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Can the same be said for Luther?
Why not!!!

But... maybe not... I am in the midst of reading a short treatise by Philip Carey entitled "WHY LUTHER IS NOT QUITE PROTESTANT".

lol.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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Why not!!!

But... maybe not... I am in the midst of reading a short treatise by Philip Carey entitled "WHY LUTHER IS NOT QUITE PROTESTANT".

lol.
Luther's via media. He's not in anyone's camp, but can make everyone equally unhappy with him.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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From: HISTORY OF THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS - HISTORY OF THE TEN PERSECUTIONS OF THE VAUDOIS

"Rainerius acknowledges, “that among all the sects which are, or ever were, none have been more pernicious to Rome than that of the Leonists; and among other causes he gives this as the first, that it is the most ancient of all; since some affirm, that it has continued from the time of Sylvester, or from the times of the Apostles.”

=========== Prior names for that group

"Waldenses were called by several different names: Leonists, Vallenses, Valsenses, Vaudois and others"

from: The Waldenses, part 1 - Steps to Life

Years of persecution failed to wipe out this faithful church so Rome tried to destroy their history through false accounts of their origins and doctrines. The enemies of the Church in the Wilderness have tried to trace their name to Peter Waldo, an opulent merchant of Lyons, France, who began his work about 1160. However, evidence is clear that the name Waldenses comes from the Italian word for “valleys” and as they spread over France they were called Vaudois which means “inhabitants of the valleys.” Waldo was converted in his mid-life and labored to spread evangelical teachings. When he met persecutions he fled to the Waldenses. But evidence is ample that the people of the valleys were an organized body for hundreds of years before he lived among them.

The Ancient Beginnings of the Waldenses

There is abundant evidence that the history of the Waldenses dates back to the time of the apostles. It is their claim that their religion passed to them from the apostles and in fact even the writings of their enemies give credence to this. (Note that the Waldenses were called by several different names: Leonists, Vallenses, Valsenses, Vaudois and others.)

==============

Persecution of the Waldenses in France - Fox's Book of Martyrs

Informational: Internet History Sourcebooks Project
 
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Right. They haven't. I just wanted to see if there was a legit alternative history out there. There isn't. My curiosity is satisfied.

Geeze if Apostolic Succession but being "alternative" is that important to you you would be better off just joining a modern Gnostic group like Bishop Hoeller's Ecclesia Gnostica in Los Angeles. While not having a literal Apostolic succession it is much easier to show how the various heretical Gnostic groups have influenced later similar movements leading to the modern age, than these other pseudo historical groups claims, which incidentally sometimes actually claim their roots unwittingly from heretical groups because grabbing at straws for any kind of historical claim ends up trumping "attention to detail" like what a group actually professed and practiced.

Ecclesia Gnostica, Los Angeles, California USA
 
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Benjamin Müller

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According to my notebook

Ephesus Era - Apostolic Era, 12 Apostles, Paul etc.

Smyrna Era - Polycarp (154 AD) and Polycrates (195 AD)

Pergamos Era - Constatine of Mananali (675 AD) Sergius (800 AD); Paulicans (800-900 AD)

Thyatira Era - Peter Debruys; Henry of Lusanne; Peter Waldo (Waldensians)

Sardis Era - John & Dorthy Trask; Theophilus Brabourne; Philip Tandy; John James; Stennett Family; Bampfield Brothers

Philadelphia Era - Herbert W. Armstrong and Splinter Groups

Citation: Where Is the True Church? – and Its Incredible History!
 
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The Liturgist

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According to my notebook

Ephesus Era - Apostolic Era, 12 Apostles, Paul etc.

Smyrna Era - Polycarp (154 AD) and Polycrates (195 AD)

Pergamos Era - Constatine of Mananali (675 AD) Sergius (800 AD); Paulicans (800-900 AD)

Thyatira Era - Peter Debruys; Henry of Lusanne; Peter Waldo (Waldensians)

Sardis Era - John & Dorthy Trask; Theophilus Brabourne; Philip Tandy; John James; Stennett Family; Bampfield Brothers

Philadelphia Era - Herbert W. Armstrong and Splinter Groups

Citation: Where Is the True Church? – and Its Incredible History!

Have you read the Paulican Key of Truth? Because there still are ethnic Paulicans, and the Paulicans in Armenia only converted to Holy Orthodoxy in the 19th century, leaving us one of their key scriptural books. If you read that, you will see they were heretics scarcely deserving of the term Christian.

Also, the WWCOG presents what one might call a narrative of wishful thinking; it is far removed from actual ecclesiastical history.

And I am really very tired of see the division history of ecclesiastical history into “church eras” based on a recent and entirely conjectural interpretation of Revelations.
 
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