The Waldensians and the 2nd Century

[Thatgirloncfforums]

@BobRyan ,

Who preceded the Waldensians? And who preceded them? Trace their movements back to the 2nd century for me please.

Thanks

 

[BobRyan]

From: HISTORY OF THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS - HISTORY OF THE TEN PERSECUTIONS OF THE VAUDOIS

"Rainerius acknowledges, “that among all the sects which are, or ever were, none have been more pernicious to Rome than that of the Leonists; and among other causes he gives this as the first, that it is the most ancient of all; since some affirm, that it has continued from the time of Sylvester, or from the times of the Apostles.”

=========== Prior names for that group

"Waldenses were called by several different names: Leonists, Vallenses, Valsenses, Vaudois and others"

from: The Waldenses, part 1 - Steps to Life

Years of persecution failed to wipe out this faithful church so Rome tried to destroy their history through false accounts of their origins and doctrines. The enemies of the Church in the Wilderness have tried to trace their name to Peter Waldo, an opulent merchant of Lyons, France, who began his work about 1160. However, evidence is clear that the name Waldenses comes from the Italian word for “valleys” and as they spread over France they were called Vaudois which means “inhabitants of the valleys.” Waldo was converted in his mid-life and labored to spread evangelical teachings. When he met persecutions he fled to the Waldenses. But evidence is ample that the people of the valleys were an organized body for hundreds of years before he lived among them.

The Ancient Beginnings of the Waldenses

There is abundant evidence that the history of the Waldenses dates back to the time of the apostles. It is their claim that their religion passed to them from the apostles and in fact even the writings of their enemies give credence to this. (Note that the Waldenses were called by several different names: Leonists, Vallenses, Valsenses, Vaudois and others.)

==============

Persecution of the Waldenses in France - Fox's Book of Martyrs

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Great we are on the "Trail of Blood" aka Landmarkism, we might as well be looking for Golden Tablets that you need a magic Seer Stone to translate.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

This council of Frankfurt?
Council of Frankfurt - Wikipedia

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Great we are on the "Trail of Blood" aka Landmarkism, me might as well be looking for Golden Tablets that you need a magic Seer Stone to translate.

I like history

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I like history

Well there are different kinds of history. You got the real kind using books, the writing of ancient personalities, archelogy etc. and then you got speculative fan fiction history. I mean under the right context even Scientology could be history and Science.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Well there are different kinds of history. You got the real kind using books, the writing of ancient personalities etc. and then you got speculative fan fiction history...

I'm trying to trace the info given in the articles as best I can with my own limited resource (the net).
For instance, I looked up the council of Frankfort on Wikipedia. Papal supremacy isn't mentioned. I also can't find anything on Claudius, the secretary to Charlemagne.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I'm trying to trace the info given in the articles as best I can with my own limited resource (the net).
For instance, I looked up the council of Frankfort on Wikipedia. Papal supremacy isn't mentioned. I also can't find anything on Claudius, the secretary to Charlemagne.

That is a doctrine that took over 1450 years to evolve in its current state. Basically from a primitive notion of the Roman patriarch being "the first among equals" in Nicene times among the ancient Churches to it's current form in the late 1800s where Roman Catholics formally defined the Charism of Infallibility for their Church and Communion.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

That is a doctrine that took over 1450 years to evolve in its current state. Basically from a primitive notion of the Roman patriarch being "the first among equals" in Nicene times among the ancient Churches to it's current form in the late 1800s where Roman Catholics formally defined the Charism of Infallibility for their Church and Communion.

Wasn't it already present in the 15th century?

 

[Basil the Great]

@BobRyan ,

Who preceded the Waldensians? And who preceded them? Trace their movements back to the 2nd century for me please.

Thanks

I have read quite a lot about the Waldensians and I do not believe that their origin can be traced back to the 2nd century.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Wasn't it already present in the 15th century?

Yes but it has gone through it's different phases was very strong then but without a formal definition of things like Infallibility.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Yes but it has gone through it's different phases was very strong then but without a formal definition of things like Infallibility.

Ah. True.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Thank you @BobRyan for taking the time to post this. I will do my best to research on my own.

From: HISTORY OF THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS - HISTORY OF THE TEN PERSECUTIONS OF THE VAUDOIS

"Rainerius acknowledges, “that among all the sects which are, or ever were, none have been more pernicious to Rome than that of the Leonists; and among other causes he gives this as the first, that it is the most ancient of all; since some affirm, that it has continued from the time of Sylvester, or from the times of the Apostles.”

=========== Prior names for that group

"Waldenses were called by several different names: Leonists, Vallenses, Valsenses, Vaudois and others"

from: The Waldenses, part 1 - Steps to Life

Years of persecution failed to wipe out this faithful church so Rome tried to destroy their history through false accounts of their origins and doctrines. The enemies of the Church in the Wilderness have tried to trace their name to Peter Waldo, an opulent merchant of Lyons, France, who began his work about 1160. However, evidence is clear that the name Waldenses comes from the Italian word for “valleys” and as they spread over France they were called Vaudois which means “inhabitants of the valleys.” Waldo was converted in his mid-life and labored to spread evangelical teachings. When he met persecutions he fled to the Waldenses. But evidence is ample that the people of the valleys were an organized body for hundreds of years before he lived among them.

The Ancient Beginnings of the Waldenses

There is abundant evidence that the history of the Waldenses dates back to the time of the apostles. It is their claim that their religion passed to them from the apostles and in fact even the writings of their enemies give credence to this. (Note that the Waldenses were called by several different names: Leonists, Vallenses, Valsenses, Vaudois and others.)

==============

Persecution of the Waldenses in France - Fox's Book of Martyrs

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I have read quite a lot about the Waldensians and I do not believe that their origin can be traced back to the 2nd century.

Did they begin with Waldo or did Waldo join an already existing group?

 

[BobRyan]

Did they begin with Waldo

Not according to what we read here --

From: HISTORY OF THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS - HISTORY OF THE TEN PERSECUTIONS OF THE VAUDOIS

"Rainerius acknowledges, “that among all the sects which are, or ever were, none have been more pernicious to Rome than that of the Leonists; and among other causes he gives this as the first, that it is the most ancient of all; since some affirm, that it has continued from the time of Sylvester, or from the times of the Apostles.”

=========== Prior names for that group

"Waldenses were called by several different names: Leonists, Vallenses, Valsenses, Vaudois and others"

from: The Waldenses, part 1 - Steps to Life

Years of persecution failed to wipe out this faithful church so Rome tried to destroy their history through false accounts of their origins and doctrines. The enemies of the Church in the Wilderness have tried to trace their name to Peter Waldo, an opulent merchant of Lyons, France, who began his work about 1160. However, evidence is clear that the name Waldenses comes from the Italian word for “valleys” and as they spread over France they were called Vaudois which means “inhabitants of the valleys.” Waldo was converted in his mid-life and labored to spread evangelical teachings. When he met persecutions he fled to the Waldenses. But evidence is ample that the people of the valleys were an organized body for hundreds of years before he lived among them.

The Ancient Beginnings of the Waldenses

There is abundant evidence that the history of the Waldenses dates back to the time of the apostles. It is their claim that their religion passed to them from the apostles and in fact even the writings of their enemies give credence to this. (Note that the Waldenses were called by several different names: Leonists, Vallenses, Valsenses, Vaudois and others.)

==============

Persecution of the Waldenses in France - Fox's Book of Martyrs

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Not according to what we read here --

Still, 12th century is pretty early. Not by Patristic standards, but definitely by Scholastic standards. By comparison, Thomas Aquinas lived between 1225-1274.

I also find it interesting that they began as something akin to a monastic lay group. This reminds me of Luther who came out of monasticism himself.

 

[BobRyan]

Still, 12th century is pretty early. Not by Patristic standards, but definitely by Scholastic standards. By comparison, Thomas Aquinas lived between 1225-1274.

I also find it interesting that they began as something akin to a monastic lay group. This reminds me of Luther who came out of monasticism himself.

part of that document I quoted "It is their claim that their religion passed to them from the apostles and in fact even the writings of their enemies give credence to this. (Note that the Waldenses were called by several different names: Leonists, Vallenses, Valsenses, Vaudois and others.)"

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I looked up, 'Leonists' and 'Vaudois'. Their origins are still 12th century.
What writings of Rome give credence to the idea that the Waldensians date to the Patristic era? I'm interested in looking at those.

part of that document I quoted "It is their claim that their religion passed to them from the apostles and in fact even the writings of their enemies give credence to this. (Note that the Waldenses were called by several different names: Leonists, Vallenses, Valsenses, Vaudois and others.)"

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Waldensians having ancient ancestry has got to be one of the best kept secrets in Christendom. Better than the Syriac Maronites hiding away in seclusion in the mountains of Lebanon for over 4 centuries, and much more rare than the ancient scrolls of the various Gnostic sects in the caves of places like Nag Hamadi.

 

[DamianWarS]

@BobRyan ,

Who preceded the Waldensians? And who preceded them? Trace their movements back to the 2nd century for me please.

Thanks

we can all draw a straight line from our starting point all the way down to Christ (or the 2nd century)