The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment in Hell.

[Hillsage]

Just exactly what the "essentials" are, is the $50 question.
$50 question!! I'm surprised at your/my age you didn't say $64,000 question. I expect that out of these young pups but we gotta represent!

Then I shall by all means 'repent'...uh I mean "represent" my age more appropriately in the future...I hope.

As far as essentials goes I was referring to like LDS doctrine type stuff.

Then I'm probably in trouble. When I was in college I spent a lot of time with a couple of Mormon's simply because they had better morals and drive to learn than most of our class. So we were in a study group. I asked both of them their testimony one time. Dan said that he accepted Christ in a Campus Crusade for Christ fellowship. Then one day 'not long thereafter' a couple of those younger 'elders' knocked on his door. They shared some things out of the bible which he subsequently shared at his CC for C bible study. They were all excited about Dan's sharing's until they asked where he got it all from. 'They freaked' and held up the big 'cult' sign to him. He was young and confused, so he said; "I stepped back and looked at the situation. Then I asked myself, who acted like Jesus here?" And then he switched to Mormonism. Question Tigger, do you believe in eternal security or OSAS? I do. Since that time I have always felt like someone could be LDS and just have a lot of 'bad doctrine' (as far as my doc box is concerned). But then years later I ran into more like Dan, whose testimony met the 'essentials' for initial salvation being raised as LDS. I have even put some JW's in the same boat. So I must ask (but we're off topic), what are the essentials in your opinion?

And by the way I'm not set on eternal punishment like cement. I just feel it's the strongest argument. That's why I'm open to reasonable dialogue. I've changed my stance on topics before. I figure I'm a work in progress and we are studying an infinite God.

I love what you said here, because it is so much like my testimony. I was raised Catholic, but after getting 'born again' became a Lutheran (my wife's church) for two years. Taught Sunday school led the youth group. Then I felt like God called us out of the 'structured church' and for 17 years we home churched only. The I felt God leading us to go back, which we did for 23 years in an supposedly Charismatic church. But it was pretty weak on the Crazimatic stuff. It was my years outside of 'orthodoxy'' where I felt the freedom to talk to all faiths and spiritual weirdos.

Here is my argument for eternal punishment in a nutshell.

1st. The Greek words translated as eternal punishment are typically used with this meaning.

I disagree with typically, And it was an inconsistency that followed 'doctrinal mindsets' as opposed to 'grammatical consistency' that bothered me.

2nd. The parallel structure of the sentence helps affirm this thought.

I have no difficulty here either with my POV if I correct the above mentioned errors.

3rd. I believe all of the ECF writers who actually were directly discipled and then appointed as Bishops by Apostles themselves expressed this idea of eternal punishment.

I don't think you can say "all". I have 'surviving' quotes from 20 who don't. And I do believe in the underhandedness of the early Catholic church to 'WIN' the religious war any way possible. I'm not mad at Catholics today either, it is just church history in my book.

Enough of letting me ramble, but this is getting too long.

 

[Timothew]

Wrong! The chaff is a part of the wheat that is not consumed. The seed husks, leaves and stems. The chaff is not a separate plant which grows among the wheat.

I never said that it was a separate plant. However the wheat is separated from the chaff before the wheat is gathered, and the chaff is burned up. You are simply nit picking to no effect. If your argument is that the chaff is part of the wheat, then your argument that Matthew 3:12 supports eternal conscious torment of the wicked fails. If your argument is that the chaff is burned just just like sinners in hell are burned, then your argument also fails, because According to Matthew 3:12, the chaff is burned up, katakausai, by the fire. It is consumed by the fire.

 

[Timothew]

Where did I say that I posted Matt 3:12 "as 'proof' that the wicked are burned alive, but never consumed by the fire?" You are assuming! I suggest you look up the definition of achuros and the definition of chaff before you continue.

My you have a short memory.

Right here:

This thesis does not address the many verses which support eternal conscious punishment [ECP] Such as these 28 passages. where Jesus addresses the fate of the unrepentant wicked, Matt 3:12;

Or are you now claiming that the wicked are consumed by the fire, yet conscious of eternal torment? Are you claiming the wicked are both consumed and unconsumed at the same time?

I am not assuming, I am trying to follow your illogical and unbiblical argument. It is really quite simple, the wages of sin is death. The wages of sin is not eternal life in torment. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Whoever doesn't will not have eternal life, they will perish.

 

[Hillsage]

If you are correct, then Der Alter is wrong, and this verse doesn't refer to the burning alive of sinners in hell. If you are wrong, then this verse does refer to the fire consuming the unrepentant, and again Der Alter is wrong. In either case, there is no way to make this verse support Der Alter's position. Either way, Der Alter is wrong.

For all I know we are all wrong but your proving Der Alter wrong kind of sounds like you are dealing with some past issues. I've had them too. But hopefully a fresh start is always a possibility....after all; "with God all things are possible."

But I'm not sure what any of this has to do with addressing my post, along with the scriptures given which I feel support my position concerning the verse we were dealing with, which was Matt 3. Matt 13 is a whole other issue to me. And in that text I do agree that wheat/tares is two people groups.

 

[Der Alte]

My you have a short memory.

Right here:

Or are you now claiming that the wicked are consumed by the fire, yet conscious of eternal torment? Are you claiming the wicked are both consumed and unconsumed at the same time?

I am not assuming, I am trying to follow your illogical and unbiblical argument. It is really quite simple, the wages of sin is death. The wages of sin is not eternal life in torment. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Whoever doesn't will not have eternal life, they will perish.

Yes I did say "This thesis does not address the many verses which support eternal conscious punishment [ECP] Such as these 28 passages. where Jesus addresses the fate of the unrepentant wicked." However I did not mean that all 28 referred to ECP. But all 28 do refer to the fate of the unrepentant.

Yes it is quite simple as I have told you before. The wages of sin is death. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is appointed to man once to die then the judgment. Your one verse does not say The wages of sin is death, resurrection then death again.

As for your reference to perish. As I have told you before the word translated perish is used to refer to men being killed by Pilate in the temple, men drowning, food spoiling, spilled wine, broken wineskins, etc. and not annihilaton.

 

[Timothew]

For all I know we are all wrong but your proving Der Alter wrong kind of sounds like you are dealing with some past issues.

I am. I've had this disagreement with him for 4 years. Ever since I met him. You and I can disagree about a passage of scripture without being disagreeable even though we live in different theological houses. Der Alter hasn't learned to do that yet. I wish we could discuss this calmly but he like to shout "WRONG!" Age doesn't always bring maturity with it.

 

[SharonL]

The Bible speaks of a second death. The unbeliever will be cast into the lake of fire - fire is all consuming - and is forever - therefore - an unbeliever will be forever tortured - dead means forever. The second death.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . I am. I've had this disagreement with him for 4 years. Ever since I met him. You and I can disagree about a passage of scripture without being disagreeable even though we live in different theological houses. Der Alter hasn't learned to do that yet. I wish we could discuss this calmly but he like to shout "WRONG!" Age doesn't always bring maturity with it.

I play nice until it is time to not play nice, and the other person always decides when that is.

My you have a short memory. . .

Need I say more?

 

[Timothew]

Wrong!

A word to the wise is sufficient.

 

[Timothew]

The Bible speaks of a second death. The unbeliever will be cast into the lake of fire - fire is all consuming - and is forever - therefore - an unbeliever will be forever tortured - dead means forever. The second death.

Dead, even the second death, does not mean "alive forever being tortured".

 

[he-man]

My you have a short memory.

Right here:



Or are you now claiming that the wicked are consumed by the fire, yet conscious of eternal torment? Are you claiming the wicked are both consumed and unconsumed at the same time?

I am not assuming, I am trying to follow your illogical and unbiblical argument. It is really quite simple, the wages of sin is death. The wages of sin is not eternal life in torment. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Whoever doesn't will not have eternal life, they will perish.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do it saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[SharonL]

Dead, even the second death, does not mean "alive forever being tortured".

That is what I meant - the lake of fire consumes - thus the second death.

 

[Timothew]

That is what I meant - the lake of fire consumes - thus the second death.

Oh, my mistake, I'm sorry.

 

[Hillsage]

That is what I meant - the lake of fire consumes - thus the second death.

HEB 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

REV 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

1CO 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

If death is destroyed then it is not 'eternal'.

If death and hell are destroyed in the the lake of fire then we must have the death of death, the death of hell, and the death of whatever needs to die in those still needing to be "saved yet though as by fire." Even Christians will go through God's fire, in this age and the one to come, if they didn't obtain perfection/sinlessness here in their working out of their salvation on earth...including me at present.

1CO 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned (during judgment), he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

My God 'salts every man with FIRE' for purification....not torture.
My God 'baptizes with the Holy Spirit and FIRE for purification...not torture.

Only a human heart could be so "deceitful and desperately wicked" to think the heart of God is to eternally torture for no purpose.

Punishment is just that PUNISHMENT...not eternal PUNISHING. Only Christians want the noun of scripture to be a never ending verb.

1CO 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may BE ALL IN ALL.

Thank God that 'His ways' are still above the ways of most men.

ROM 11:33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
36 For from him and through him and to him are ALL THINGS. To him be glory for ever. Amen. and

 

[Cocoafrost]

At least, according to the Bible.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I do agree.

Job 14:13 (NKJV)


“Oh, that You would hide me in the grave,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past,
That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!






Sheol Means Hades

It is interesting that in the Greek Septuagint (the first translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek), which predated Jesus' earthly life by almost two-hundred years, the Hebrew word Sheol was translated into Greek as Hades in each instance where it was found. So, we must conclude that both words (Sheol and Hades) carried the same meaning to those ancient Jewish translators. And remember that the Bible which many Jews and all the Christians used in the First Century was the Greek Septuagint.
So, when Jesus came along, the typical Jewish use of the word Hades didn't mean an underworld place of torture, it was a synonym for Sheol, and it still just meant The Place of the Dead. (Is There a Burning Hell?)

 

[Der Alte]

That is what I meant - the lake of fire consumes - thus the second death.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [a person] are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Der Alte]

A word to the wise is sufficient.

Clean up your back yard, see what happens.

 

[Der Alte]

I do agree.

Job 14:13 (NKJV)


“Oh, that You would hide me in the grave,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past,
That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Sheol Means Hades

It is interesting that in the Greek Septuagint (the first translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek), which predated Jesus' earthly life by almost two-hundred years, the Hebrew word Sheol was translated into Greek as Hades in each instance where it was found. So, we must conclude that both words (Sheol and Hades) carried the same meaning to those ancient Jewish translators. And remember that the Bible which many Jews and all the Christians used in the First Century was the Greek Septuagint.
So, when Jesus came along, the typical Jewish use of the word Hades didn't mean an underworld place of torture, it was a synonym for Sheol, and it still just meant The Place of the Dead. (Is There a Burning Hell?)

When you go to a website that does not believe in hell, you will find only information which supports that view. The ancient Jews believed in a place of unending conscious punishment and they called it both Sheol and Gehenna.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.
. . .
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
​

 

[Timothew]

Clean up your back yard, see what happens.

Okay, do you want to start over fresh?

 

[Der Alte]

Okay, do you want to start over fresh?

Yes.