The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment in Hell.

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Timothew

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I follow your logic, but if "death and hell" are destroyed by the second death in the lake of fire, then I believe we have the death of death and hell. And we have 'that', because they have served their purpose in the plan of God, and that only leaves the 'one possibility' of life, for our victorious God and His beloved creation.

1CO 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

And if death is destroyed then death cannot be 'eternal'. And when I say 'eternal' I mean eternal and not as an 'age' or 'pertaining to an age' as the Greek 'aion/aionios' should be consistently translated. The only Greek word that meets our English definition of eternal is the Greek word 'adios'.

I know you'll disagree, and I still like annihilation-ism better than a God who tells us to always forgive everyone, but He Himself isn't going to. Nothing like a double standard on that scale to encourage one in the faith. Puny us is supposed to 'out forgive' God. :D I think that those believing in eternal purposeless torture simply reveal the depths of their heart, and not the heart of God.

Be blessed. :)
Thanks, Sage.
I just can't reconcile all the of the passages that speak of the death and destruction of the unrepentant with the idea that everyone will receive eternal life regardless of whether they are in Christ or oppose Him.

I probably do not understand Christian Universalism well enough.
 
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Timothew

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Tigger, you make it difficult to respond when you post this way.
Use the "quote" function, please and thank you.


Tim said:
I'm sorry, but this does not prove that the Bible means separation when it says death. Adam did not die the day he ate the fruit. He died much later, when he was 930 years old. See Genesis 5:5.
Tigger said:
Um? Hello! That's my point. God said the "day" they ate of the fruite they would "die". But they didn't like you said Adam lived until he was 930 years old. What happened that "day" is Adam & Eve were separated from God by being kicked out of the garden.

Umm, Hello? God said they would die the day they ate the fruit, and they did die, later. God is gracious and allowed the sacrifice of an animal in their place. When Adam died at 930, He was not "Separated" from God.
That's my point, from the beginning the penalty for sin was (and is) death. Adam sinned, Adam died. That's my point, that's what the Bible says.

Tim said:
1 Tim 5:6 doesn't prove that death = separation either.
Tigger said:
The point is the bible used the term dead but {even while she lives}. Showing the bible is using the term dead not as a term of annihilation.
So you are saying that if a term is used metaphorically, it can never again be used non-metaphorically? The Bible doesn't just use the term death for the penalty for sin, it also says that the wicked will be destroyed, they will be no more, they will perish, they will be as ash, they will be as chaff that is blown away.


Tim said:
And 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says EXACTLY what I have been saying from the start of this thread (and before!) They will be punished with everlasting destruction. They will not be punished with everlasting NON-destruction. This verse doesn't say the destruction is being separated from God, it is saying the destruction comes from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his strength.
Tigger said:
2 Thessalonians 1:9

New International Version (NIV)

9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
You can't punish someone with annihilation and everlasting destruction. It's like a judge sentencing someone to death and once that's done you have to servce out your time of a life sentence without parole.

No, When you sentence someone to everlasting destruction, they are sentenced to destruction that is everlasting. It's like a judge sentencing someone to death, and then carrying out that sentence. You can't punish someone to eternal destruction without destroying the person.
 
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Hillsage

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New American Standard Bible (NASB)

23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
Genesis 3:23 is a result of Gen 2:17 which is a separation from God by Him kicking Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden.
I guess God must have left the Garden with them then. Since Cain wasn't born in the Garden.

GEN 4:16 Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden.


1 Timoth 5:6
6 But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.
How can she be dead if she is still alive?
The same way a 'dead man walking' can still be alive on 'death row'. Many fail to understand scripture because they don't understand the eastern oriental-isms of it.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
This sums it up all in this one verse.
Thank God for better translations.

YLT 2TH 1:9 who shall suffer justice - destruction age-during - from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,


And after that 'age' of destruction, all that is contrary to God will be dealt with and THEN they will be returned to "the GLORY of his strength/might". For the judgments of God are remedial and not punitive like our failed prison systems. A system where the administrator where I was doing jail ministry for two years once told me; "We are not in the business of 'correction' but of 'care, custody and control'." I believe my God is in the business of correction...temporally and eternally.
 
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JohnRabbit

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I guess God must have left the Garden with them then. Since Cain wasn't born in the Garden.

GEN 4:16 Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden.


The same way a 'dead man walking' can still be alive on 'death row'. Many fail to understand scripture because they don't understand the eastern oriental-isms of it.

Thank God for better translations.

YLT 2TH 1:9 who shall suffer justice - destruction age-during - from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,


:confused:And after that 'age' of destruction, all that is contrary to God will be dealt with and THEN they will be returned to "the GLORY of his strength/might". For the judgments of God are remedial and not punitive like our failed prison systems. A system where the administrator where I was doing jail ministry for two years once told me; "We are not in the business of 'correction' but of 'care, custody and control'." I believe my God is in the business of correction...temporally and eternally.:confused:

:confused:
 
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Timothew

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Thank God for better translations.

I know, particularly the use of the word "away" in 2 Thess 1:9.
It isn't in the greek.
οἵτινες δίκην τίσουσιν ὄλεθρον αἰώνιον ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ κυρίου καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς δόξης τῆς ἰσχύος αὐτοῦ,

"...from the face of the lord and from the glory of his strength"
 
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Timothew

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And after that 'age' of destruction, all that is contrary to God will be dealt with and THEN they will be returned to "the GLORY of his strength/might". For the judgments of God are remedial and not punitive like our failed prison systems. A system where the administrator where I was doing jail ministry for two years once told me; "We are not in the business of 'correction' but of 'care, custody and control'." I believe my God is in the business of correction...temporally and eternally.
I don't believe that any correction is possible AFTER death. Since the person is, you know, dead.

I like language. Words mean things.
 
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Now that's a perfect example of 'the kettle calling the pot black'.

If you believe that, show me where I made an assertion without evidence?

You obviously don't understand the power of the 'religious spirit'. When the 'politically' connected 'church' became the one with the biggest gun, they used it to kill Christians who disagreed. That's simply church history clear up to the Crusades.

You obviously don’t understand the power of God. Read Isaiah 55:11 and Mat 16:18

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.​

If we are to believe you, God’s word was void for 2000 years +/- and hell prevailed against the church of Jesus for the same amount of time. According to these two verses and others there should be a considerable record of Christians who believed as you do for the last 2 millennia. Where is that record? We have many, many writings from the early church, Origen, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Tertullian, etc. Where are the early church witnesses who believed as you do?

I suspect there is no evidence that could sway you.

The same kind of evidence I present, would convince me. Credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, or lexical evidence.

But for your interest, here is Pridgeon's source.

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96

Then you should have quoted Schaff-Herzog, not a second hand source. But again my question, if these 4 theological schools dominated Christianity for 5 or 6 centuries, there should be tons of evidence for universalism, from those centuries. Where is that evidence? Or explain to me how any organized church could destroy virtually every document produced by those 4 schools hundreds of miles apart, scattered all around the Mediterranean sea?

That's a very good question...how did the 666 "Chrisitian denominations" TODAY get into such miserable shape? It certainly isn't because the church today 'correctly' believes in hell now, is it? And I suppose I could point out that you need to Google a little bit to find out universalism DID prevail. Even though it went into religious catacombs to do so. I hope you understand my analogy.

See my questions above.

The only thing "out-of-context" is your 'pretext'. But I'll humor you, what is your 'in context' explanation of 1John 2:2? There's not a word in that whole chapter not supportive of my view IMO.

You first, I asked you before, if your understanding of 1 John 2:2, means everybody who has lived or ever will live will be saved no matter what. What was Jesus talking about in Matthew 25:46, “These shall go away into eternal punishment?”

Like the more critical translations state. They are going into the age/aion/eon of correction. That's why it is translated "punishment age-during."

As I said there is no such term as “age-during” in English.

Maybe you've answered your own dilemma then. Point 1; What language did you just write that in? Point 2; The scriptures weren't originally written in English. And being 'true to the Greek' is what makes for difficult English reading. That's why most Christians believe like you do. They rely on interpretations, written by indoctrinated translators who sign a 'statement of faith' before they're even hired to give you your newest 'hot off the $ press' interpretation. They take the same Greek word and interpret it eternity when it fits their doctrine, and then they interpret it world, when translating it consistently would point out how stupid it is.

Well lets straighten out one thing. I began learning to speak Greek, in Germany, when Elvis and I were stationed there. I studied both Biblical languages formally more than 2 decades later. I have Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker Greek Lexicon, Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, A.T. Robertson’s Greek Grammar, and Word Pictures in the NT, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains, in my library, so I suggest you be very prudent in trying to correct me.

While there can be different usages for a Greek word based on context, there is no one Greek word, that I am aware of, that can have two totally opposite meanings.

If you have not studied Greek, you should refrain from making such absolute statements about Greek.

Here is a verse as found in our King James Bibles:

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal (aionios) life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world (aionios) began;

The words “eternal” and “world” are both the exact same Greek word—“aionios.” The definition from Strong’s is eternal? So the natural question is why didn't the King James translators translate it the same in both cases? Simply because it wouldn’t make any sense!

Neither you nor I can speak for the KJV translators and your argument is irrelevant since we have modern versions. For example the ASV “in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal; ”

Young's LITERAL translation makes more sense; Titus 1:2 upon hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages,

Since, I assume, you have not studied Greek all you have done is find a version which supports your assumptions/presuppositions. My next post is just for you.
 
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Aionio's" - A Lexical Survey
by Tom Logan​
Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166.
αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).
Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​
2. &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.

"Aionios is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."
From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​
67.96 &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.

The most frequent use of aijwvnio" in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, aijwvnio" evidently carries certain implications associated with aijwvnio" in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​
&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).

Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *
NIDNTT Colin Brown​
…Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios. …
 
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Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
aijwvnio" (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;
• Strong's - Greek 165

• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds

• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);

• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):

In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.

The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…

Bibletexts.com

From CARM

aion - &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

• aionion, aionios – &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – &#949;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#969;&#959;&#957; - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory [colo=red]forever and ever.[/color]"
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.
 
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Ronald

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You did a good job, but proved my point that aion or aionios has variable meanings applicable to either the finite realm or God and His domain.
First of all, only God and His domain is eternal, without beginning and without end. Actually the only time eternity was used in the OT is in Isaiah 57:15, where it states the God inhabits eternity (transliterated - ad). That word is translated 41 times as ever; twice as everlasting; once as end; once as old; once as evermore and once as perpetually. In most of these uses, God, His power or our salvation is described.
But there are problems. This word is used 3X in this verse:
"He stood, and measured the earth: He beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow, His ways are everlasting" Hab.3:6 KJV
Are mountains eternal? No and hills aren't perpetual --they will pass away. It even describes the mountains being scattered, hence, not everlasting.
But His ways are. So shouldn't this word be translated differently?
This translation is more accurate:
"He stood, and shook the earth, He looked, and made the nations tremle. The ancient mountains were crumbled. The age-old hills collapsed. His ways are eternal." WEB
Here's another example:
In Psalm 103:17 KJV: "But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear Him and His righteousness unto children's children." If everlasting means eternal then is this saying from eternity to eternity? It can't mean that. This passage implies that His mercy is from age to age! "Children's children" supports this.
This works better: "And the kindness of Jehovah is from age even unto age on those fearing Him and His righteousness to sons' sons."
Our salvation started somewhere and moves forward infinitely. All other things created in this physical universe will pass away. Therefore, they are not eternal, nor do they proceed forward infinitely.
Examples of passages that imply an eternal or infinite state: Rom.1:25;11:36; Eph. 3:11; 1 Tim.1:17;1 Pet. 1:25; Matt.6:13;Luke 1:33; John 6:51; Gal.1:4, 5; Heb.13:8; 1 Pet. 1:23; 1 John 2:17; Jude 25; Rev. 5:13; Matt. 19:16; John 3:16;3:36
Examples of passages using the same word that are temporal:
1 Cor.10:11; 2:6; Eph 2:7; 1:21; 3:9; John 13:8; Gen.13:15; Ex.12:17; 27:20, 21.
The key verse doctrtinal verse everyone points to, to make a case:
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" Matt.25:46 KJV
That is the same word used, yet they translated it differently, because everlasting means age-lasting. In many other translations, eternal is used for both, while assuming hell is eternal --why not.
There is a tention between both realms and I believe one is spiritual and the other not, therefore, temporal. One exists in time and the other outside of time.
An age-lasting punishment would better fit a judgment proportionate to sins that occurred during your lifetime and/or lasting till the end of the earth. But age-during life doesn't quite cut it.
Punish comes from the word "kolasis", which means "cutting-off", so when comebined with anionios, we would get age-lasting cutting off.
I submit a more accurate translation:
"Then they will go away to age-lasting cutting off, but the righteous into eternal life."
You must also consider the words, perish and destroy, which mean to cause cessation of being; utterly ruin; consume; demolish; put an end to; kill. Let's not assign some eternal meaning to those words. Again as if there can be a imperishable perishing or indestructible destruction.

"...Rather fear him who is able to destroy in Gehenna." Matt. 10:28

"The last enemy that will be destroyed is death." 1 Cor.15:26This is not just physical death, the second death is spiritual death. After death is destroyed, how could souls in the LOF exist if death is destroyed?
 
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Hillsage

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I know, particularly the use of the word "away" in 2 Thess 1:9.
It isn't in the greek.
&#959;&#7989;&#964;&#953;&#957;&#949;&#962; &#948;&#943;&#954;&#951;&#957; &#964;&#943;&#963;&#959;&#965;&#963;&#953;&#957; &#8004;&#955;&#949;&#952;&#961;&#959;&#957; &#945;&#7984;&#974;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957; &#7936;&#960;&#8056; &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#974;&#960;&#959;&#965; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#954;&#965;&#961;&#943;&#959;&#965; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#7936;&#960;&#8056; &#964;&#8134;&#962; &#948;&#972;&#958;&#951;&#962; &#964;&#8134;&#962; &#7984;&#963;&#967;&#973;&#959;&#962; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8166;,

"...from the face of the lord and from the glory of his strength"
I checked and you're right, but of the 6 translations I checked "away" was only in one, the NAS.

But if one thinks about the fact that the Lake of Fire just might BE the presence of God, since "our God IS a consuming fire", then it makes me wonder if the YLT is really might just be the best translation once again.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 who shall suffer justice - destruction age-during - from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

Makes me wonder if it is the very 'presence' and "face of the Lord" that destroys?

Question Timothy; If annihilation is true, why do you think it takes 'an age' to do so? It seems to me that God would just 'speak a word' or whatever, and it would be done.

I don't believe that any correction is possible AFTER death. Since the person is, you know, dead.
I personally don't think that the 'correction' taking place is for the 'spirit' of man, but for the 'soul'. And when someone is dead, my definition is 'their spirit has left their body'.

James 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

When Jesus raised a dead girl 'her spirit returned' (Luke 8:55). And when Jesus yielded his spirit on the cross, He died. So when 'the person' is destroyed by God, we aren't talking about their spirit' and we aren't talking about the glorified body they will receive. We are talking about that mind/will/emotional or 'soulish' aspect of a human being. Just my present thoughts on this whole issue. ;)

I like language. Words mean things.
:amen:
 
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Timothew

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Question Timothy; If annihilation is true, why do you think it takes 'an age' to do so? It seems to me that God would just 'speak a word' or whatever, and it would be done.
I actually don't know how long it takes for the Body and Soul to be destroyed. I don't think the Bible says how long this takes, and I am not one to speculate on scripture. I just repeat what scripture says. :wave: Like, "the wages of sin is death", or "Fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna". Who is the "the one"? IDK. But I will cling to Jesus who is able to resurrect both body and soul when He returns.

People who speculate beyond the scriptures tend to go astray, saying things like "Death, when it is used in the Bible always refers to a separation" or "Adam didn't die the day he died so he died spiritually and not physically". I just believe what the Bible says, "So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died." I can't speculate on the reason why Adam was able to live that long. If I were to speculate, I would say that it was because he didn't die before that.
 
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Hillsage

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"...Rather fear him who is able to destroy in Gehenna." Matt. 10:28

"The last enemy that will be destroyed is death." 1 Cor.15:26This is not just physical death, the second death is spiritual death. After death is destroyed, how could souls in the LOF exist if death is destroyed?
Thought your post was pretty good. But I personally don't hold with orthodoxy's 'spiritual death' idea. I don't think that a 'spirit' can die. Though I do believe that their is something to the biblical figurative of "sleep"/Lazarus and "separation" being likened unto 'death' though. And I base that upon the scripture where the father considered his 'prodigal son' as 'figuratively' dead because they were not in fellowship. As an individual the son was obviously alive upon his return.

LUK 15:24 for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.' And they began to make merry.

I am also glad that this represents the heart of a true father...like God.
 
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Hillsage

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I actually don't know how long it takes for the Body and Soul to be destroyed. I don't think the Bible says how long this takes, and I am not one to speculate on scripture. I just repeat what scripture says. :wave: Like, "the wages of sin is death", or "Fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna". Who is the "the one"? IDK. But I will cling to Jesus who is able to resurrect both body and soul when He returns.
Amen to the part I bolded. :thumbsup:

People who speculate beyond the scriptures tend to go astray, saying things like "Death, when it is used in the Bible always refers to a separation" or "Adam didn't die the day he died so he died spiritually and not physically". I just believe what the Bible says, "So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died." I can't speculate on the reason why Adam was able to live that long. If I were to speculate, I would say that it was because he didn't die before that.
I think that YLT got it right again concerning Adam's death sentence warning from God. Scripture does say it's 'sin becoming mature/perfect/full-grown that causes death' James 1:15.

YLT Genesis 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it - dying thou dost die.'

The fact that this Hebraism does not imply 'instant death' as some erroneously teach/believe, is confirmed in the following 2 verses where this 'saying' is obviously speaking of a 'death sentence', and not an immediate happening.

NUM 26:65 For the LORD had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

[KJV] JDG 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

And die they did, but not before giving birth and raising Sampson. The same was true of Adam/Eve.
 
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You did a good job, but proved my point that aion or aionios has variable meanings applicable to either the finite realm or God and His domain.
First of all, only God and His domain is eternal, without beginning and without end.

There is no but! Please tell me how many semesters you have in koine Greek? You are applying a false condition to the definition of the word "eternal" which is not listed in any lexicon.

Actually the only time eternity was used in the OT is in Isaiah 57:15, where it states the God inhabits eternity (transliterated - ad). That word is translated 41 times as ever; twice as everlasting; once as end; once as old; once as evermore and once as perpetually. In most of these uses, God, His power or our salvation is described.
But there are problems. This word is used 3X in this verse:
"He stood, and measured the earth: He beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow, His ways are everlasting" Hab.3:6 KJV
Are mountains eternal? No and hills aren't perpetual --they will pass away. It even describes the mountains being scattered, hence, not everlasting.
But His ways are. So shouldn't this word be translated differently?
This translation is more accurate:
"He stood, and shook the earth, He looked, and made the nations tremle. The ancient mountains were crumbled. The age-old hills collapsed. His ways are eternal." WEB
Here's another example:
In Psalm 103:17 KJV: "But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear Him and His righteousness unto children's children." If everlasting means eternal then is this saying from eternity to eternity? It can't mean that. This passage implies that His mercy is from age to age! "Children's children" supports this.
This works better: "And the kindness of Jehovah is from age even unto age on those fearing Him and His righteousness to sons' sons."
Our salvation started somewhere and moves forward infinitely. All other things created in this physical universe will pass away. Therefore, they are not eternal, nor do they proceed forward infinitely.

Somewhat interesting but not relevant to this discussion.

Examples of passages that imply an eternal or infinite state: Rom.1:25;11:36; Eph. 3:11; 1 Tim.1:17;1 Pet. 1:25; Matt.6:13;Luke 1:33; John 6:51; Gal.1:4, 5; Heb.13:8; 1 Pet. 1:23; 1 John 2:17; Jude 25; Rev. 5:13; Matt. 19:16; John 3:16;3:36
Examples of passages using the same word that are temporal:
1 Cor.10:11; 2:6; Eph 2:7; 1:21; 3:9; John 13:8; Gen.13:15; Ex.12:17; 27:20, 21.

Once again how many semesters of Greek do you have?

The key verse doctrtinal verse everyone points to, to make a case:
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" Matt.25:46 KJV
That is the same word used, yet they translated it differently, because everlasting means age-lasting. In many other translations, eternal is used for both, while assuming hell is eternal --why not.

You are referring to the KJV. I don't rely on any translation. The Greek word is &#945;&#953;&#787;&#969;&#769;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;/aionios. I see no reason to not understand both to mean the same thing, eternal, everlasting, unending.

There is a tention between both realms and I believe one is spiritual and the other not, therefore, temporal. One exists in time and the other outside of time.
An age-lasting punishment would better fit a judgment proportionate to sins that occurred during your lifetime and/or lasting till the end of the earth. But age-during life doesn't quite cut it.

What you "believe" is not relevant. Greek is not translated by what someone thinks is "judgment proportionate to the sins"

Punish comes from the word "kolasis", which means "cutting-off", so when comebined with anionios, we would get age-lasting cutting off.
I submit a more accurate translation:
"Then they will go away to age-lasting cutting off, but the righteous into eternal life."

You must also consider the words, perish and destroy, which mean to cause cessation of being; utterly ruin; consume; demolish; put an end to; kill. Let's not assign some eternal meaning to those words. Again as if there can be a imperishable perishing or indestructible destruction.

Once again how man semesters of Greek do you have?

"...Rather fear him who is able to destroy in Gehenna." Matt. 10:28

What God created He can destroy, but in scripture, how many souls has God destroyed?

"The last enemy that will be destroyed is death." 1 Cor.15:26This is not just physical death, the second death is spiritual death. After death is destroyed, how could souls in the LOF exist if death is destroyed?

Redefining words to fit your assumptions/presuppositions with, as far as I know, no education in koine Greek. Your question does not make sense. How would the destruction of death prevent souls from existing and being punished?
 
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Hillsage

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Well lets straighten out one thing. I began learning to speak Greek, in Germany, when Elvis and I were stationed there. I studied both Biblical languages formally more than 2 decades later.
That explains a lot. Now tell me why people with greater Greek studies than you, still have translated the NT a thousand different ways? One just doesn't seem possible. So brag about your degrees if you must, but I'll not back down from that which has come from the teacher given from above....with a bit more authority than the counselors from below. You may be thinking what ARROGANCE right now...but I'm thinking what ASSURANCE.

I have Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker Greek Lexicon, Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, A.T. Robertson’s Greek Grammar, and Word Pictures in the NT, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains, in my library, so I suggest you be very prudent in trying to correct me.
AHHH my lexicon must predate yours since it is the Bauer , Arndt, Gingrich edition, not a mention of Danker. And I also have an 1856 original edition book by Thomas B. Thayer titled 'THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT'. It was given to me by a dear friend who found it in a pile of used books and thought immediately of me. Though contemporaries I have not been able to find out if the 'Thayer's' were possibly brothers. Never the less, you can hang your hat on your 'Thayer's POV and I'll hang my hat on my Thayer. :p You also might re-read your introduction in that Bauer/Arndt/Ginrich/Danker book just to find out how ridiculous your attitude is to think you are on some plateau I should bow down to. That's the part I highlighted in my book when I bought it in '73'.

If you have not studied Greek, you should refrain from making such absolute statements about Greek.
No, I should do what I have done. Studied those scholars who agreed with orthodoxy (like you've posted) as well as those scholars who didn't. Then I let the Spirit lead and guide me into the truth I now cling to. And, as best I can, I walk away from the "traditions and commandments of men"...which have given rise to those 666 denominations I mentioned earlier? I am not proclaiming perfection, mind you.

I'm sure you stand on the Proverbs verse below, as do I. But I stand more proudly on the Isaiah one below it.

PRO 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

ISA 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit,


Since, I assume, you have not studied Greek all you have done is find a version which supports your assumptions/presuppositions. My next post is just for you.
Since you've proven nothing but why you are what you are. And it is an attitude of arrogance based on your superior education from indoctrinated men. So for me this is a waste of time talking any more.

I truly bid you good will and trust God for both of us...and for both of our misunderstandings.
 
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Tigger45

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What? Just because you were unable to prove your belief that when the Bible says "death" it really means "a separation"? You could quit, or you could see this as an opportunity for spiritual growth.

Edit: I just looked at post 4. Dr Steve didn't post anything but a verse that doesn't prove his point, and a claim that he won the debate. How is he right?
Wow dude how can I make this clear? drstevej said on his first and only post quote "This thread is done". Not that he won the debate. He was referring to my post above his with the verse I posted.
Matt 25:46, "And these will go into everlasting punishment, but the just into everlasting life."
I reiterate. There is no reason to continue a discussion without progression.
 
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Hillsage

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Wow dude how can I make this clear? drstevej said on his first and only post quote "This thread is done". Not that he won the debate. He was referring to my post above his with the verse I posted.
Matt 25:46, "And these will go into everlasting punishment, but the just into everlasting life."
I reiterate. There is no reason to continue a discussion without progression.
But true progression requires much reading...unfortunately. That's quite possibly why there is never any progression. Few have actually STUDIED both sides...to decide.

Matthew 25:46 contains an additional clue confirming the temporary nature of God’s judgment. The Greek word, translated “punishment,” is kolasis. William Barclay, world-renowned Greek scholar, translator, and author of the popular Bible commentary, The Daily Study Bible and New Testament Words, noted:
The Greek word for punishment here [Mt. 25:46] is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment.6

Thomas Talbott, philosophy professor at Willamette University in Oregon and author of The Inescapable Love of God, explained:
According to Aristotle, there is a difference between revenge and punishment; the latter (kolasis) is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer, the former (tim&#333;ria) in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction. Plato also appealed to the established meaning of kolasis as support for his theory that virtue could be taught: “For if you will consider punishment (kolasis)…and what control it has over wrong-doers, the facts will inform you that men agree in regarding virtue as procured.” Even where a punishment may seem harsh and unforgiving, more like retribution than parental chastisement, this in no way excludes a corrective purpose. Check out the punishment that Paul prescribes in I Corinthians 5:5. One might never have guessed that, in prescribing such a punishment—that is, delivering a man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh—Paul had in mind a corrective purpose, had Paul not explicitly stated the corrective purpose himself (“that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”). So as this text illustrates, even harsh punishment of a seemingly retributive kind can in fact serve a redemptive purpose.7-9
“And these will go away into everlasting [aionian] punishment [kolasis], but the righteous into eternal [aionian] life”(Mt. 25:46). Isn’t it ironic that the passage most often used to support everlasting punishment is in fact one strongly opposing it when accurately understood?

Dr. Helena Keizer is a trustworthy authority on the definition of ai&#333;n in ancient Greek literature, including the Bible in the time of Christ. Keizer published a 315-page doctoral dissertation titled: “Life, Time, Entirety – A Study of Ai&#333;n in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo.” Presented on September 7, 1999 in Holland, at Amsterdam University. Keizer stated:
“Ol&#257;m and hence ai&#333;n in the Biblical sense is time constituting the human temporal horizon.”29 “Our study has led to the conclusion that infinity is not an intrinsic or necessary connotation of ai&#333;n, either in the Greek or in the Biblical usage (‘ol&#257;m).”30 “To speak of ‘this ai&#333;n’, its ‘end,’ and ‘the ai&#333;n to come’ clearly lends to ai&#333;n the meaning of a limited time.”31 “The following description of Gregory of Nyssa…makes a good finishing point for now: ‘Aeon designates temporality, that which occurs within time.’”32
I am pleased to say that Dr. Keizer has given me permission to share her book with others in electronic format.

Terms for Eternity is another scholarly work on ai&#333;n by David Konstan and Ilaria Ramelli. Konstan is the John Rowe Workman Distinguished Professor of Classics and Professor of Comparative Literature, at Brown University in R.I. Ramelli is Assistant Professor of Ancient Philosophy at the Catholic University of Milan, Italy. They agree with the conclusions of Dr. Keizer. They wrote:
“Apart from the Platonic philosophical vocabulary, which is specific to few authors, aiónios does not mean “eternal”; it acquires this meaning only when it refers to God, and only because the notion of eternity was included in the conception of God: for the rest, it has a wide range of meanings and its possible renderings are multiple, but it does not mean “eternal.” In particular when it is associated with life or punishment, in the Bible and in Christian authors who keep themselves close to the Biblical usage, it denotes their belonging to the world to come.” (Page 238)
These scholarly works are important, as the key defense of eternal punishment depends on this word meaning absolute eternity. For more on the meaning of ai&#333;n, see our website: HopeBeyondHell.net; Further Study; Eternity, and Church History.
 
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Tigger45

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[Cognate: 2851 kólasis (from kolaphos, "a buffeting, a blow") – properly, punishment that "fits" (matches) the one punished (R. Trench); torment from living in the dread of upcoming judgment from shirking one's duty
Strong's concordance in a highly respected source. I think I'll stick with their definition.

quote=Hillsage;63299952]But true progression requires much reading...unfortunately. That's quite possibly why there is never any progression. Few have actually STUDIED both sides...to decide.

Matthew 25:46 contains an additional clue confirming the temporary nature of God’s judgment. The Greek word, translated “punishment,” is kolasis. William Barclay, world-renowned Greek scholar, translator, and author of the popular Bible commentary, The Daily Study Bible and New Testament Words, noted:
The Greek word for punishment here [Mt. 25:46] is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment.6

Thomas Talbott, philosophy professor at Willamette University in Oregon and author of The Inescapable Love of God, explained:
According to Aristotle, there is a difference between revenge and punishment; the latter (kolasis) is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer, the former (tim&#333;ria) in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction. Plato also appealed to the established meaning of kolasis as support for his theory that virtue could be taught: “For if you will consider punishment (kolasis)…and what control it has over wrong-doers, the facts will inform you that men agree in regarding virtue as procured.” Even where a punishment may seem harsh and unforgiving, more like retribution than parental chastisement, this in no way excludes a corrective purpose. Check out the punishment that Paul prescribes in I Corinthians 5:5. One might never have guessed that, in prescribing such a punishment—that is, delivering a man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh—Paul had in mind a corrective purpose, had Paul not explicitly stated the corrective purpose himself (“that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”). So as this text illustrates, even harsh punishment of a seemingly retributive kind can in fact serve a redemptive purpose.7-9
“And these will go away into everlasting [aionian] punishment [kolasis], but the righteous into eternal [aionian] life”(Mt. 25:46). Isn’t it ironic that the passage most often used to support everlasting punishment is in fact one strongly opposing it when accurately understood?

Dr. Helena Keizer is a trustworthy authority on the definition of ai&#333;n in ancient Greek literature, including the Bible in the time of Christ. Keizer published a 315-page doctoral dissertation titled: “Life, Time, Entirety – A Study of Ai&#333;n in Greek Literature and Philosophy, the Septuagint and Philo.” Presented on September 7, 1999 in Holland, at Amsterdam University. Keizer stated:
“Ol&#257;m and hence ai&#333;n in the Biblical sense is time constituting the human temporal horizon.”29 “Our study has led to the conclusion that infinity is not an intrinsic or necessary connotation of ai&#333;n, either in the Greek or in the Biblical usage (‘ol&#257;m).”30 “To speak of ‘this ai&#333;n’, its ‘end,’ and ‘the ai&#333;n to come’ clearly lends to ai&#333;n the meaning of a limited time.”31 “The following description of Gregory of Nyssa…makes a good finishing point for now: ‘Aeon designates temporality, that which occurs within time.’”32
I am pleased to say that Dr. Keizer has given me permission to share her book with others in electronic format.

Terms for Eternity is another scholarly work on ai&#333;n by David Konstan and Ilaria Ramelli. Konstan is the John Rowe Workman Distinguished Professor of Classics and Professor of Comparative Literature, at Brown University in R.I. Ramelli is Assistant Professor of Ancient Philosophy at the Catholic University of Milan, Italy. They agree with the conclusions of Dr. Keizer. They wrote:
“Apart from the Platonic philosophical vocabulary, which is specific to few authors, aiónios does not mean “eternal”; it acquires this meaning only when it refers to God, and only because the notion of eternity was included in the conception of God: for the rest, it has a wide range of meanings and its possible renderings are multiple, but it does not mean “eternal.” In particular when it is associated with life or punishment, in the Bible and in Christian authors who keep themselves close to the Biblical usage, it denotes their belonging to the world to come.” (Page 238)
These scholarly works are important, as the key defense of eternal punishment depends on this word meaning absolute eternity. For more on the meaning of ai&#333;n, see our website: HopeBeyondHell.net; Further Study; Eternity, and Church History.[/quote]
 
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Ronald

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There is no but! Please tell me how many semesters you have in koine Greek? You are applying a false condition to the definition of the word "eternal" which is not listed in any lexicon.
Eternal is an English word! I'm not applying any false condition, the word anionios has variable meanings as stated in your lengthy post, of which you only highlighted the eternal meaning. God's domain is unconditionally without beginning or ending, the earth however is temporal and when this word is applied to temporal things, it has a finite meaning, Caspisce? When you look up any word, it usually has more than one meaning.

Once again how many semesters of Greek do you have?
If I told you I was a Bible scholar, you still would have reservation and rightly so. Eternal hell is a traditional doctrine, backed by both the Catholic and most Prostestant churches; so you are in the majority of those who share the idea that when you are enjoying eternal heaven, billions or souls will be sufferring in eternal flames -- people you may know even. And you believe that this is God's justice, He is glorified by it and you are OK with it. How nice --I'm not and so I am free to express myself.
I'm not going to wave my credentials, what I've stated is sufficient. However, take a look at my avatar. That is my book, "Hell ... If I Know". I devoted two chapters to the nature of hell and all the confusion surrounding it. The book is a concise study of Christianity from Genesis through Revelation. So, I can assure you that I have done my homework . I've spent hundreds of hours on that one word, aionios, along with every text it's in. I use 570 of the most powerful and life-changing scriptures from eight different Bible versions in my book to tell the story, so it is not all commentary. I purposely kept the commentary to the minimal amount. I let the word speak, I don't use the word to support this view, I let the reader make the decision. It was an exhaustive work to say the least. I was unemployed for over a year, so I had the time. As you can see from the cover of the book, it paints a picture of hell on earth; with wars, a nuke hitting a city, an asteroid and a super volcanic eruption. This is what we have to look forward to in the Great Tribulation period. Are you ready?

Greek is not translated by what someone thinks is "judgment proportionate to the sins"
The Greek was translated by hundreds of scholars who came up with many versions, that contain variable meanings. I would get into the history of how God's justice throughout the Old Testatment was clearly displayed and how the judgment of eternal hell does not rest on the pillar, but it would take to long. And then Jesus came and changed the tone. Where an eye for an eye was just, he forgave and showed mercy. Why don't you do a study on if God's judgment was propertionate to the sins of the Jews? You'll find it was always fair, for a time and a just punishment was temporal.

What God created He can destroy, but in scripture, how many souls has God destroyed?
That's his perogtive, I don't know but in several cases I suspect He put an end to them. When he makes makes a vessel for a purpose, when that purpose is fulfilled, does He get angry because it didn't respond in another way? No, it served it's purpose -- like Pharoah or Judas.

Redefining words to fit your assumptions/presuppositions with, as far as I know, no education in koine Greek.
I got definitions from the same sources, Greek and Hebrew lexicons, Complete Word Study of Old and New Testaments -- didn't contrive them.
Again, aionios also means age(s), generation(s), lifetime(s), epoch, world, etc.
How would the destruction of death prevent souls from existing and being punished?
Well, the wages of sin is death, physical and spiritual. God told Adam and Eve that on the day they ate of the fruit, they would die. Did they physically die? No, but their biological system became corrupted and distorted by sin and so their days were numbered. But spiritually, they became disconnected with God and so they passed this defect on to the world. We are born disconnected, spiritually dead until He quikens us and we become born again.
So the second death is of both soul and body. Your soul is your mind, will and emotions, the invisible you. They are already spiritually dead but as scripture states: "... fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."
If death is destroyed and doesn't exist, than neither will those punished by death. It is not a state of deathless death. Death is finite, it's the end. There is no eternal death suggested in scripture. What is expressed is age-lasting punishment. The person's body and soul is cut off, put to an end. If their soul is destroyed, they don't have a mind, will or emotions, they have nothing --they won't exist! Capisce?
 
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